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DonKombi
Samba Member
Joined: October 18, 2014
Posts: 209
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 Posted: Wed Jul 06, 2016 3:26 pm Post subject: Re: How can I make a 11 Window VW be a 23 Window Samba Bus? |
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| EverettB wrote: |
| Robbyvm wrote: |
I more interested in the statement that with 100K in hand it can be turned into 150K within 365 days ( and guaranteed )...
i wish i could have that talent, i would be a rich man in july 2017 !!! |
Nothing is guaranteed but if someone is doing well buying a particular type of Bus, doing work to it, and reselling it for a profit I can see how they could extrapolate that into a particular amount of profit.
More power to them if they have a plan and execute it and make some money.
Don't forget the legal lingo that comes with all of your retirement stuff though:
"Past Performance Is Not An Indicator Of Future Results" |
That was a mis-read on your part, Everett.
I was explaining, in detail, how I think vintage VW's are not particularly good investments. The 100K into 150K comment was referring to NON VW-vehicle endeavors. |
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EverettB 
Administrator
Joined: April 11, 2000
Posts: 69838
Location: Phoenix Metro
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| Posted: Wed Jul 06, 2016 9:47 am Post subject: Re: How can I make a 11 Window VW be a 23 Window Samba Bus? |
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| Robbyvm wrote: |
I more interested in the statement that with 100K in hand it can be turned into 150K within 365 days ( and guaranteed )...
i wish i could have that talent, i would be a rich man in july 2017 !!! |
Nothing is guaranteed but if someone is doing well buying a particular type of Bus, doing work to it, and reselling it for a profit I can see how they could extrapolate that into a particular amount of profit.
More power to them if they have a plan and execute it and make some money.
Don't forget the legal lingo that comes with all of your retirement stuff though:
"Past Performance Is Not An Indicator Of Future Results"
_________________
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novetti
Samba Member
Joined: August 15, 2004
Posts: 469
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| Posted: Wed Jul 06, 2016 3:46 am Post subject: Re: How can I make a 11 Window VW be a 23 Window Samba Bus? |
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| Robbyvm wrote: |
this was a great read and i'm still convinced that everyone can have his/her own opinion
I more interested in the statement that with 100K in hand it can be turned into 150K within 365 days ( and guaranteed )...
i wish i could have that talent, i would be a rich man in july 2017 !!! |
Wrong...you will be 850K short of been a millionaire 
Wanna buy a kombi? Call me  |
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Robbyvm
Samba Member
Joined: December 23, 2015
Posts: 15
Location: Belgium
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| Posted: Wed Jul 06, 2016 12:54 am Post subject: Re: How can I make a 11 Window VW be a 23 Window Samba Bus? |
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this was a great read and i'm still convinced that everyone can have his/her own opinion
I more interested in the statement that with 100K in hand it can be turned into 150K within 365 days ( and guaranteed )...
i wish i could have that talent, i would be a rich man in july 2017 !!! |
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DonKombi
Samba Member
Joined: October 18, 2014
Posts: 209
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| Posted: Mon Jul 04, 2016 4:55 pm Post subject: Re: How can I make a 11 Window VW Bs a 23 Window Samba Bus? |
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| Happy Fourth of July to everyone!! God Bless America!! |
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DonKombi
Samba Member
Joined: October 18, 2014
Posts: 209
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| Posted: Mon Jul 04, 2016 4:52 pm Post subject: Re: How can I make a 11 Window VW Bs a 23 Window Samba Bus? |
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| cdennisg wrote: |
| DonKombi wrote: |
| cdennisg wrote: |
When you have a product for sale, you set a price. You will sell it for more, but not less. That is what the product is worth.
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Couldn't disagree more.....
So if somebody sets a price.....that is what the product is worth?
I think there are about one million overpriced items for sale here on TheSamba where the sales price does not even come within the same universe of its actual worth.
You are smarter than that... did I miss something? |
You quoted an edited version of my statement. In the first line I mentioned how this works when you know your market. If you know your market, price the product accordingly, and sell the product, you have found its worth. It is not just "what a buyer will pay" because drunk guys at auctions that have deep pockets do not pay what things are worth in the open market. IF that were the case, that rusted out 63 panel camper with 30 years of garbage and a dead dog on the back seat would be worth what the seller is asking after seeing "one of those vans go for $200K on that there TV!".
See the difference in "worth" from different viewpoints? |
I see your points......and I hope you see mine:
After the $218K Barrett Jackson 23W and a bunch of other CONFIRMED sales north of 100K.....it is safe to say the "market value" for nicely restored original 23W buses is north of 100K.
A far as the Brazilian 23W's go.... I do not "know my market" and I certainly have not "found its worth". I am just trucking along every day and playing around with these things in my spare time. Trying to find efficiencies.......trying to streamline the process.......trying to make the process easier and better....trying my best to deliver value.
With no comps..... its very hard to establish a "market price"
Some people want to get into 23-window ownership as inexpensive as possible (the 16K-18K crowd) because they will be ripping EVERYTHING apart and re-doing the entire car. Running engine is meaningless because it will be getting a new one anyway. Brakes are meaningless because they will be replaced with new anyway.
Other people want a 23-window that is complete, presentable, running, driving, and something they can drive to the beach in NOW. And they dont mind paying more (high $20's).
Two COMPLETELY different type of buyers. And I am trying to figure out who I should focus on. I should probably continue focusing on both!!
I must have missed that day at school when they taught about buying, selling, and collecting old Volkswagens. Every day is a continual learning process. I dont have all the answers...... but I am always trying to learn new things.
Bottom line: I am trying to FIND my market.....and it is all being done by trial and error. |
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Abscate
Samba Member
Joined: October 05, 2014
Posts: 22681
Location: NYC/Upstate/ROW
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| Posted: Mon Jul 04, 2016 9:35 am Post subject: Re: How can I make a 11 Window VW Bs a 23 Window Samba Bus? |
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I detect the horrible sucking sound of overpriced splits depreciating.....
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Craig
Samba Member
Joined: August 09, 2004
Posts: 766
Location: Chapel Hill, NC
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| Posted: Mon Jul 04, 2016 9:00 am Post subject: Re: How can I make a 11 Window VW Bs a 23 Window Samba Bus? |
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You laugh (and smiley) at odd things:
| DonKombi wrote: |
I just find it incredibly humorous that people who have ZERO clue about Brazilian buses find the need to casually post numbers that they grasp from thin air. With NO IDEA of what the process entails. Just wild, unadulterated speculation.
Unbelievably funny.  |
Now, this is unbelievably funny and incredibly humorous: (from Mon Feb 08, 2016 12:20 pm Post subject: Re: Official whine about Beetles and parts for sale topic):
| DonKombi wrote: |
| DonKombi is not a business. DonKombi is a hobbyist just like you. |
Stop allowing "M-code geeks" to pull your chain, your successes and smugness are proof that you need not to defend your opinions. Savor the repute you get from your buyers. You do not need the approval here. |
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Clara
Samba Member
Joined: June 14, 2003
Posts: 12402
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| Posted: Mon Jul 04, 2016 8:56 am Post subject: Re: How can I make a 11 Window VW Bs a 23 Window Samba Bus? |
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| easy e wrote: |
40k breakdown... off the cuff round numbers & probably 25+% off
It was probably a $3,000 bus in Brazil
Slap on paint job & Tijuana style upholstery $1,000 ($4,000)
Sell to North American for profit + $4,000 ($8,000)
Shipping + paperwork $3,000 (11,000)
Add sunroof in US $5,000 ($16,000)
Re-do headliner $1,000 ($17,000)
Engine/trans/tires $3,000 ($20,000)
Amount you're overpaying $20,000
But, having a finished bus (not starting from square one) is worth something... maybe $8-10,000?? (very subjective)
Still overpaying (easily) by a good $10,000 |
^^^^
Bottom line: Evan estimates a Brazilian 15 turned into a 23 is worth ~ $20 to 30K in the USA
| Malokin Martin wrote: |
Nobody wants an expensive brasilian 23 window clone and there are few (if any) stock brasilian bus' that are genuinely worth close to 40k. I imagine it would be tough to flip on the other end once you got tired of it.
As a side note, once you get anywhere above 20K (actual) cash in hand, you have real bargaining power. |
| DonKombi wrote: |
But the marketplace has an ENORMOUS hunger for INEXPENSIVE 23-window conversions.
I have sold over 20 converted 23-window buses in the past 18 months. All have been in the 16K - 29K range (except for a couple of REALLY nice ones that went for 35K).
All were converted by Grumpy in Grumpy's shop using the highest quality conversion parts and techniques on planet earth. Some were rough projects (closer to the 16K range)....while others were decent drivers (closer to the 29K range). And everything in between.
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Looks to me that Donkombi agrees with Evan and Malokin Martin, except says their guesstimates on value range is a bit high at the low end.
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cdennisg
Samba Member
Joined: November 02, 2004
Posts: 20290
Location: Sandpoint, ID
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| Posted: Sun Jul 03, 2016 8:46 pm Post subject: Re: How can I make a 11 Window VW Bs a 23 Window Samba Bus? |
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| DonKombi wrote: |
| cdennisg wrote: |
When you have a product for sale, you set a price. You will sell it for more, but not less. That is what the product is worth.
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Couldn't disagree more.....
So if somebody sets a price.....that is what the product is worth?
I think there are about one million overpriced items for sale here on TheSamba where the sales price does not even come within the same universe of its actual worth.
You are smarter than that... did I miss something? |
You quoted an edited version of my statement. In the first line I mentioned how this works when you know your market. If you know your market, price the product accordingly, and sell the product, you have found its worth. It is not just "what a buyer will pay" because drunk guys at auctions that have deep pockets do not pay what things are worth in the open market. IF that were the case, that rusted out 63 panel camper with 30 years of garbage and a dead dog on the back seat would be worth what the seller is asking after seeing "one of those vans go for $200K on that there TV!".
See the difference in "worth" from different viewpoints?
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DonKombi
Samba Member
Joined: October 18, 2014
Posts: 209
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| Posted: Sun Jul 03, 2016 8:14 pm Post subject: Re: How can I make a 11 Window VW Bs a 23 Window Samba Bus? |
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| cdennisg wrote: |
When you have a product for sale, you set a price. You will sell it for more, but not less. That is what the product is worth.
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Couldn't disagree more.....
So if somebody sets a price.....that is what the product is worth?
I think there are about one million overpriced items for sale here on TheSamba where the sales price does not even come within the same universe of its actual worth.
You are smarter than that... did I miss something? |
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DonKombi
Samba Member
Joined: October 18, 2014
Posts: 209
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| Posted: Sun Jul 03, 2016 8:07 pm Post subject: Re: How can I make a 11 Window VW Bs a 23 Window Samba Bus? |
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| cdennisg wrote: |
| DonKombi wrote: |
1. The value of any car is whatever a buyer is willing to pay. |
I have always gotten a kick out of this cop out statement. I have no intention here of picking on you, just the general claim. Anyone who knows a particular market knows exactly what a product in that market is worth. |
Interesting take.
"cop out statement"?
So......
Lets assume Grumpy has converted a couple/few dozen of these Brazilian 15's into 23's.
Lets assume ALL (except for two) have been owned by ME.
Lets assume I figure my costs and set a price I am comfortable with.
Lets assume that the cars sell at my price.
Does that make it the "market price"?
No it doesn't.
Because I am the one establishing the price......I could be leaving $10K per car on the table due to pricing too low.
Bottom line: The "resale" market for Brazilian 23W conversions is completely unchartered waters........THERE IS NO "MARKET PRICE"!!!!!!
Hard to establish "market price" with ZERO comps......
I could easily see an exceptionally well-done Brazilian 23W go to Barrett Jackson and fetch 100K on the right day to the right buyer. None of the M-code geeks here on Samba would buy it......but a deep-pocket buyer who wants something shiny with 23 windows may step up..... Would a transaction such as this establish a new "market price"? Of course not....
How do you establish "resale value" for a class of vehicle that is new and has never been "resold" (publicly...and to my knowledge). You cant.
Hence..... the "value of any car is whatever a buyer is willing to pay" statement. |
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novetti
Samba Member
Joined: August 15, 2004
Posts: 469
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| Posted: Sun Jul 03, 2016 5:09 pm Post subject: Re: How can I make a 11 Window VW Bs a 23 Window Samba Bus? |
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The VW scene (specially) Splitscreen Kombis has changed and evolved a lot in the last 10, to 15 years.
I already posted here that these two words (''investment'' and ''kombi'') shouldn't naturally belong in the same phrase, whoever the world is upside down anyway.
I had decided to part away with my VW vehicles, simply put I don't enjoy them anymore since they became ''an investment'', and with the evolution path this market took.
Would I pay 100k for a 23 window (even if I had all the money in the world) ?
And my stance is no.
However, the cheer number of people who now ''discovered'' the Kombis and put pressure in the prices, it seems unbeatable. The purists should actually welcome people wanting to jump in any vehicle (been German, Brasilian, South African, Australian original, converted or not etc), because the pressure will go on. These people are individuals who never owned, driven or even been a passenger at these old tin cans. These are the guys forking out big $$$. Some think is an investment, others just want the looks.
If the market would rely in individuals like me, no kombi would be worth more than what it sold new to the adjusted inflation price. Maybe I am an exception but someone like me with a lifetime and family generations with exposure to these vehicles, (ownership more than 40 splitscreens alone within my family and we were not car dealers), my dad had 20 of them as delivery vehicles in the 50's,60's and 70's, we commuted to school, to the beach etc and learned how to drive on them.
For me they are good cars, however there is a ceiling in my feelings for them. |
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cdennisg
Samba Member
Joined: November 02, 2004
Posts: 20290
Location: Sandpoint, ID
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| Posted: Sun Jul 03, 2016 5:02 pm Post subject: Re: How can I make a 11 Window VW Bs a 23 Window Samba Bus? |
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| DonKombi wrote: |
1. The value of any car is whatever a buyer is willing to pay. |
I have always gotten a kick out of this cop out statement. I have no intention here of picking on you, just the general claim. Anyone who knows a particular market knows exactly what a product in that market is worth. When you have a product for sale, you set a price. You will sell it for more, but not less. That is what the product is worth.
Again, not directed at you, DonKombi, just my view on this statement overall.
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DonKombi
Samba Member
Joined: October 18, 2014
Posts: 209
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| Posted: Sun Jul 03, 2016 4:35 pm Post subject: Re: How can I make a 11 Window VW Bs a 23 Window Samba Bus? |
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| DonKombi wrote: |
| EverettB wrote: |
| DonKombi wrote: |
| EverettB wrote: |
| DonKombi wrote: |
| easy e wrote: |
40k breakdown... off the cuff round numbers & probably 25+% off
It was probably a $3,000 bus in Brazil
Slap on paint job & Tijuana style upholstery $1,000 ($4,000)
Sell to North American for profit + $4,000 ($8,000)
Shipping + paperwork $3,000 (11,000)
Add sunroof in US $5,000 ($16,000)
Re-do headliner $1,000 ($17,000)
Engine/trans/tires $3,000 ($20,000)
Amount you're overpaying $20,000
But, having a finished bus (not starting from square one) is worth something... maybe $8-10,000?? (very subjective)
Still overpaying (easily) by a good $10,000 |
Easy....you are a good guy.
Here is a million dollars worth of advice for free: stick to what you know.
Your numbers are either a bad joke or put you in the realm of Fantasyland.
Peace |
Since you have done a bunch - Post the real numbers. |
Obviously every car and every situation differs.
I just find it incredibly humorous that people who have ZERO clue about Brazilian buses find the need to casually post numbers that they grasp from thin air. With NO IDEA of what the process entails. Just wild, unadulterated speculation.
Unbelievably funny. |
| Abscate wrote: |
| If I had a successful business doing this the last thing I would publish would be my margins to the chiselers on the Internet. |
For some of those costs - it shouldn't vary that much, there shouldn't be a huge difference on doing a headliner or doing the sunroof conversion.
Same as any other business.
If I do a project for someone and it's $5000 and they ask me to do another one that is the same sort of work it's going to be the same or very close to that same price.
It's pretty easy to refute the breakdown with details without getting specific.
"Headliners cost double that"
"The roof conversion is actually $6000"
"There are no Buses for $3000 in Brazil" (Someone basically said that above)
and so on. |
Good job Everett... You just refuted almost half of the line items without even trying (3 out of the 7).
And Grumpy's price for the conversion is listed at $7000 FYI |
Because you asked....i will give you my judgements on the other 4 line items:
1. Paint and interior for $1,000? Dumb statement. Costs much more.
2. Flipper makes $4000? Another dumb statement. Most guys over there are happy with $500-$1000
3. Shipping + Paperwork $3000? Maybe if Dilma was your mistress.
4. Engine/trans/tires $3000? Here....people want $2500+ just for rebuilt stock 1600 longblocks.....throw in trans/tires and labor and you will easily double that $3000 estimate. |
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DonKombi
Samba Member
Joined: October 18, 2014
Posts: 209
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| Posted: Sun Jul 03, 2016 4:21 pm Post subject: Re: How can I make a 11 Window VW Bs a 23 Window Samba Bus? |
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| EverettB wrote: |
| DonKombi wrote: |
| EverettB wrote: |
| DonKombi wrote: |
| easy e wrote: |
40k breakdown... off the cuff round numbers & probably 25+% off
It was probably a $3,000 bus in Brazil
Slap on paint job & Tijuana style upholstery $1,000 ($4,000)
Sell to North American for profit + $4,000 ($8,000)
Shipping + paperwork $3,000 (11,000)
Add sunroof in US $5,000 ($16,000)
Re-do headliner $1,000 ($17,000)
Engine/trans/tires $3,000 ($20,000)
Amount you're overpaying $20,000
But, having a finished bus (not starting from square one) is worth something... maybe $8-10,000?? (very subjective)
Still overpaying (easily) by a good $10,000 |
Easy....you are a good guy.
Here is a million dollars worth of advice for free: stick to what you know.
Your numbers are either a bad joke or put you in the realm of Fantasyland.
Peace |
Since you have done a bunch - Post the real numbers. |
Obviously every car and every situation differs.
I just find it incredibly humorous that people who have ZERO clue about Brazilian buses find the need to casually post numbers that they grasp from thin air. With NO IDEA of what the process entails. Just wild, unadulterated speculation.
Unbelievably funny. |
| Abscate wrote: |
| If I had a successful business doing this the last thing I would publish would be my margins to the chiselers on the Internet. |
For some of those costs - it shouldn't vary that much, there shouldn't be a huge difference on doing a headliner or doing the sunroof conversion.
Same as any other business.
If I do a project for someone and it's $5000 and they ask me to do another one that is the same sort of work it's going to be the same or very close to that same price.
It's pretty easy to refute the breakdown with details without getting specific.
"Headliners cost double that"
"The roof conversion is actually $6000"
"There are no Buses for $3000 in Brazil" (Someone basically said that above)
and so on. |
Good job Everett... You just refuted almost half of the line items without even trying (3 out of the 7).
And Grumpy's price for the conversion is listed at $7000 FYI |
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Abscate
Samba Member
Joined: October 05, 2014
Posts: 22681
Location: NYC/Upstate/ROW
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| Posted: Sun Jul 03, 2016 4:07 pm Post subject: Re: How can I make a 11 Window VW Bs a 23 Window Samba Bus? |
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Asked and answered above. The poster supplied that his high point was 35k, so I would say no to the 40k value.
These are not investments folks, they are luxury toys. Get investment out of your head in this game.
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DonKombi
Samba Member
Joined: October 18, 2014
Posts: 209
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| Posted: Sun Jul 03, 2016 4:06 pm Post subject: Re: How can I make a 11 Window VW Bs a 23 Window Samba Bus? |
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| hitest wrote: |
Don Kombi- You are missing an important part of this updated thread. "bus lover" combined the value of a 40k Brazilian bus investment with the prospect of reselling it in his question. You make a case for your success as an assistant maker and seller of these buses- but you don't address resale. I'd like to see two things:
1) What your customers can expect as a value on their bus when they go to sell it (or what they've sold for if it's public).
2) A link or two to any threads wherein your many happy customers share their experiences buying and owning a converted newer than '67 Brazilian bus.
Either of these should help the earlier poster decide on his own about the true value. It would also give me insight as to whether I'm up to date about these Brazilian buses. |
hitest-
1. The value of any car is whatever a buyer is willing to pay.
2. Why should ANYBODY who has a converted 23W bus be involved in TheSamba forums? So the peanut gallery can talk shit and people like you can use the word "hacked" in three consecutive sentences like your previous post?
3. Grumpy turns panels, 11W's, 13W's, and 15W's into 21's and 23's ALL DAY LONG with a line out of his door and a waitlist.....
But yet the Samba forums are eerily silent in regards to these vehicles. Why? It's not smart to throw bloody meat to the sharks here in TheSamba forums. That is the brutal reality in regards to why you dont see and hear much about these vehicles.
4. In regards to "true value"....it is very hard to judge an untested market. All I can speak on is personal experience. I have been called "crazy" by many people for selling a running/driving Turkis 23W for $28,000 (They thought I should have got more!!). Other people, like yourself, will surely value them for less.
5. I dont think it is smart to view ANY VW as an "investment". I have a bunch of faded, original paint, patina, black-plate 1960-1967 Bugs that I bought in 1996-2006 for $3K-$4K each thinking they would appreciate. They haven't. They are still worth $3K-$4K each.
I dont think the buyers of 100K-200K buses are making wise "investments" in terms of dollars and cents. I dont see any downside if the car is nice....but I dont see much upside either.
On the other hand......if I had 100K to use today for business endeavors....I guarantee you I could turn it into 150K within the next 365 days. Blindfolded. That, to me, makes better sense as an investment in comparison to an old VW sitting in the garage. |
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hitest
Samba Member
Joined: September 30, 2008
Posts: 10296
Location: Prime Meridian, ID
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| Posted: Sun Jul 03, 2016 3:28 pm Post subject: Re: How can I make a 11 Window VW Bs a 23 Window Samba Bus? |
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Don Kombi- You are missing an important part of this updated thread. "bus lover" combined the value of a 40k Brazilian bus investment with the prospect of reselling it in his question. You make a case for your success as an assistant maker and seller of these buses- but you don't address resale. I'd like to see two things:
1) What your customers can expect as a value on their bus when they go to sell it (or what they've sold for if it's public).
2) A link or two to any threads wherein your many happy customers share their experiences buying and owning a converted newer than '67 Brazilian bus.
Either of these should help the earlier poster decide on his own about the true value. It would also give me insight as to whether I'm up to date about these Brazilian buses.
_________________
| EverettB wrote: |
I wonder what the nut looks like.
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'62 L390 151, '62 L469 117, '63 L380 113, '64 L87 311, '65 L512 265, '65 L31 SO-42, '66 L360 251, '68 L30k 141, '71 L12 113, '74 ORG 181
FU#5 |
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EverettB
Administrator
Joined: April 11, 2000
Posts: 69838
Location: Phoenix Metro
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| Posted: Sun Jul 03, 2016 1:07 pm Post subject: Re: How can I make a 11 Window VW Bs a 23 Window Samba Bus? |
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| DonKombi wrote: |
| EverettB wrote: |
| DonKombi wrote: |
| easy e wrote: |
40k breakdown... off the cuff round numbers & probably 25+% off
It was probably a $3,000 bus in Brazil
Slap on paint job & Tijuana style upholstery $1,000 ($4,000)
Sell to North American for profit + $4,000 ($8,000)
Shipping + paperwork $3,000 (11,000)
Add sunroof in US $5,000 ($16,000)
Re-do headliner $1,000 ($17,000)
Engine/trans/tires $3,000 ($20,000)
Amount you're overpaying $20,000
But, having a finished bus (not starting from square one) is worth something... maybe $8-10,000?? (very subjective)
Still overpaying (easily) by a good $10,000 |
Easy....you are a good guy.
Here is a million dollars worth of advice for free: stick to what you know.
Your numbers are either a bad joke or put you in the realm of Fantasyland.
Peace |
Since you have done a bunch - Post the real numbers. |
Obviously every car and every situation differs.
I just find it incredibly humorous that people who have ZERO clue about Brazilian buses find the need to casually post numbers that they grasp from thin air. With NO IDEA of what the process entails. Just wild, unadulterated speculation.
Unbelievably funny. |
| Abscate wrote: |
| If I had a successful business doing this the last thing I would publish would be my margins to the chiselers on the Internet. |
For some of those costs - it shouldn't vary that much, there shouldn't be a huge difference on doing a headliner or doing the sunroof conversion.
Same as any other business.
If I do a project for someone and it's $5000 and they ask me to do another one that is the same sort of work it's going to be the same or very close to that same price.
It's pretty easy to refute the breakdown with details without getting specific.
"Headliners cost double that"
"The roof conversion is actually $6000"
"There are no Buses for $3000 in Brazil" (Someone basically said that above)
and so on.
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How to Post Photos
Everett Barnes - [email protected] | My wanted ads
"Water is the only drink for a wise man" | "Communication prevents complaints"
Stop dead photo links! Post your photos to The Samba Gallery! |
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