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insyncro
Banned
Joined: March 07, 2002
Posts: 15086
Location: New York
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 Posted: Thu Aug 15, 2013 7:12 pm Post subject: |
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Pretty limited audiance and after 4+ pages of going nowhere...what do you expect.
I personally know of over 10 Vanagons with rear disc that will lock the rear wheels....most of the owners also laugh at the mention of The Samba Forums.
Not rubbing salt in your wound.
If you feel that most or all of the rear disc kits out there are not working well and the owners of the vans are not happy, I would think again.
Search CVBill, he just posted how awesome his rear disc are in offroad situations and will hold his rig on an incline.
Sounds like you and Mad are the ones with the issues and everybody else around here has drums or is tickled pink with the setup they have.
Only so much I can do from here.
Plenty of very wise advice and places to go with your current setup offered up by other than me here.
I wish you the best of luck. |
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thummmper
Samba Member
Joined: November 25, 2009
Posts: 2015
Location: Meadow Valley, California Republic
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| Posted: Thu Aug 15, 2013 7:42 pm Post subject: |
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I had to review your pages before responding- sometimes I forget where I have already thrown a horseshoe in..
I have a thread called "my middie" a 98 tin top I did a number of things to, including the welding on of 1988 bmw 735i rear discs and little center park shoes. see it before page 10.
I used the jaguar xke 284mm front venters up front with these rotors in the rear with the vanagon reduction valve in place, works very well.
the pedal feel makes you very confident. very smooth and she holds on mean hills in park. there ya are |
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Sodo
Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2007
Posts: 9626
Location: Western WA
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| Posted: Thu Aug 15, 2013 8:46 pm Post subject: |
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| insyncro wrote: |
Plenty of very wise advice and places to go with your current setup offered up by other than me here. |
There are a LOT of members on Samba, it might be worth waiting for more than Mad & Reventios. GoWesty has not added rear discs to their line.
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There's clearly nothing wrong with the existing cables. Cables are a very simple device.
Taking it back to SmallCar is feasible.
Maybe the parking mechanism inside the piston is defective or cannot work with the corrosion on the piston -----> need new calipers.
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Thanks you guys for sticking with it you've certainly been gracious with your time and attention. 
_________________
'90 Westy EJ25, 2Peloquins, 3knobs, pressure-oiled GT mainshaft, filtered, cooled gearbox
'87 Tintop w 47k 53k, '12 SmallCar EJ25, cooled filtered gearbox
....KTMs, GasGas, SPOT mtb |
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furrylittleotter
Samba Member
Joined: May 19, 2008
Posts: 1506
Location: West Seattle
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| Posted: Thu Aug 15, 2013 9:06 pm Post subject: |
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| insyncro wrote: |
GoWesty has not added rear discs to their line.
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Purely speculation but I would venture to say that is because they have determined they offer no benefit to braking power.
Neil2 |
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madspaniard
Samba Member
Joined: August 18, 2008
Posts: 3795
Location: Alameda, CA
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| Posted: Thu Aug 15, 2013 9:10 pm Post subject: |
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I rescued this from another thread
| a914622 wrote: |
The issue with the rear disk brake set up, needs a 2 fold answer:
First the front arm inside the vanagon is a week area. By this i mean the arm does not move the cable as far as some of the cars and trucks that came from the factory with disks. The jettas,golfs all move the cables on a big radi at the base of the arm. If you look at the SVX ebrake has a D shape at the bottom. Kinda like a compound bow cam.
Second the cables come together under the vanagon and there is no support? The weight of the cable conection makes it harder to judge "tightness". If the end of the 1 main shaft had a bushing support bracket the cable would be pulled in one direction and not Up and In. Stock- you have to take up the droop in the cables before the brakes get tight. |
Regarding
| insyncro wrote: |
| Sounds like you and Mad are the ones with the issues and everybody else around here has drums or is tickled pink with the setup they have. |
I've said this before, Sodo and I are not the only ones. In this same thread we have three people saying theirs or the ones they installed work and three people saying theirs don't work. There have been more people on this board reporting e brake issues with rear disks, as early as 2006 if you read this thread below from the beginning. I sure know I was not the first one reporting these issues.
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1...;start=120
_________________
1991 Westy auto w/ Peloquin TBD
"The only difference between me and a madman is that I'm not mad” - Salvador Dali |
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Sodo
Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2007
Posts: 9626
Location: Western WA
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| Posted: Thu Aug 15, 2013 9:21 pm Post subject: |
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Yup I see some homebuilt kits claimed to work, 2 or 3 Burleys. Not an overwhelming success rate being reported on TheSamba anyway.
| a914622 wrote: |
The issue with the rear disk brake set up, needs a 2 fold answer:
First the front arm inside the vanagon is a week area. By this i mean the arm does not move the cable as far as some of the cars and trucks that came from the factory with disks. The jettas,golfs all move the cables on a big radi at the base of the arm. If you look at the SVX ebrake has a D shape at the bottom. Kinda like a compound bow cam. |
This is not true. The handbrake (cable puller) pulls more than TWICE as much cable as is necessary to operate the tiny little arm on the disc. This suggests that it only puts out 50% of the tension that the disc might require. Yes something could be done with a force multiplier that would do the same thing as like a D-cam. It would be interesting to see the parking brake mechanism that was matched to the Audi calipers.
| a914622 wrote: |
Second the cables come together under the vanagon and there is no support? The weight of the cable conection makes it harder to judge "tightness". If the end of the 1 main shaft had a bushing support bracket the cable would be pulled in one direction and not Up and In. Stock- you have to take up the droop in the cables before the brakes get tight. |
Pull your brake lever then go under the van. The cables and spreader are solid as a rock. The system has no problem lifting up that weight. Agreed it could have a more "positive feel" if that weight was supported. It would be very easy to design a hanger that would support that weight in a neutral position and allow the 1.25" maximum motion. You could make a test fixture with duct tape and zipties which would confirm if it makes sense to build a real hanger.
_________________
'90 Westy EJ25, 2Peloquins, 3knobs, pressure-oiled GT mainshaft, filtered, cooled gearbox
'87 Tintop w 47k 53k, '12 SmallCar EJ25, cooled filtered gearbox
....KTMs, GasGas, SPOT mtb |
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dobryan
Samba Member
Joined: March 24, 2006
Posts: 16510
Location: Brookeville, MD
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Signalocity
Samba Member
Joined: February 13, 2012
Posts: 573
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| Posted: Mon Dec 01, 2014 9:37 am Post subject: |
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I posted this on my build thread, but wanted to include it here as well.
So I had mentioned earlier on in the thread, that I wanted to touch back on the rear disk brake conversion. There have been a couple of different threads on getting the rear parking break working correctly or at all, for that matter. There are a couple of things that I made note of during my install, that I though could be elaborated on a bit more. My conversion came from Burley Motorsports. Burley uses rebuilt units, vs. new ones available from Small Car. This saves money (which is reflected in the cost between the two), but can also bring up a few issues as well. Working off of Small Car’s instructions, which can be found here …
http://www.smallcar.com/index.php?dispatch=pages.view&page_id=35
I am going to try and expand on this, and have numbered the pictures to reference. One thing to make note of right off the bat, is that the factory cables are two different lengths and you want to keep the original left side, and the new 2WD version for the right (Syncro application).
Be careful not to flip the bracket (1) as it is only meant to go one way. This allows the cables to angle off in the right direction.
When you are bending / cutting the spacers (3) you want them to flow in the natural direction the cable is going to route. This will keep even pressure on them when actuating the parking brake. If you don’t have this correct, it is likely the factory guides that mount in frame will pop loose.
When fitting the spacers, you want to take your time and make sure you have just the right overall length for each side. This will likely vary from vehicle to vehicle, due to condition of used cables. The goal is to land the bracket close to the middle of the threads (after being tightened down) of the threaded rod coming off the parking brake handle. You want the plane of the bracket (where the nut tightens down) to be perpendicular (2) to the rod. It needs to naturally fall into this position, which will be dictated by the length of the spacers. The bracket will not be straight side to side in relation to the bottom of the van, it will be angled. When the handle is pulled, the cables should pull evenly.
After you tighten the bracket down on the rod, the cables should be seated flush against the washer on caliper (4). You can still move it some by grabbing it, but it shouldn’t be hanging loose. There shouldn’t be any visible slack in the cables.
Troubleshooting is a two person job, one person in the van yanking on the handle, and another back by the calipers to see what is going on. I had trouble with the driver’s side caliper not actuating and releasing properly. The spring on the rebuilt unit (5) was pitted and very worn out. It was not retaining much tension at all. I ended up getting new springs for both sides (Part numbers 191-615-295 and 296) and this remedied the problem.
This is a pretty straight forward install, but it takes time to make sure everything is adjusted correctly. Custom length cables would make things easier, but not necessary. Operationally everything is the same as stock; it’s just the sheath length of the cables that needs to be corrected. On mine, one click is holding the wheels, two clicks set, and three clicks solid. If you are confident you have everything adjusted correctly and are still having problems, I would garner that the issue lies internal to the caliper.
One thing to mention on my rebuilt calipers is that I was missing the bleed valve on one of them (6). I picked one up locally (part number 1K0-615-273-A). I’m sure burley would have made good on one, but he had already sent me a replacement set of spacers that I boogered up, free of charge, so I didn’t bother him with it.
Speaking of the spacers, I noticed a slip on the handle one day when activating the parking brake. On inspection, one of the spacers had collapsed, pulling in the cable (7). I probably pulled on the handle harder than needed, but I tend to do that. I decided to make a new set out of stainless steel tubing …
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B004XN98BM/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o05_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
I have not had any other issues since. Should anything else develop, I will report back. Hope this helps!
Last edited by Signalocity on Mon Dec 01, 2014 11:04 am; edited 2 times in total |
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BavarianWrench
Samba Member
Joined: January 18, 2004
Posts: 1045
Location: Oceans Edge
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| Posted: Mon Dec 01, 2014 9:52 am Post subject: |
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Signalocity Every time I see the underside of your rig I have to ask, did you ever win any awards from Round Table, BMWNA tech tips? Clean documentation and the rig blows my mind every time.
Thanks |
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1vw4x4
Banned
Joined: June 22, 2005
Posts: 472
Location: Pgh. PA
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| Posted: Mon Dec 01, 2014 2:02 pm Post subject: |
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Gowesty is not the only one to have issues with rear disc. Specially the E-brake. Common sense (what little is left) tells you rear brakes do a very small part of braking. Add to that the issues of the E-brake, and rear discs
are of no value. Now lets look at the E-brake part. All disc brakes work
best when they heat up. If so, how does the E-brake work? It never even gets warm. Therefore the only thing it can do is have a large surface or friction area. NOT! Because of the engineering here (or lack there of) only small vehicles can have this setup. Knowing this, go look at new truck and SUVs. They have disc in the rear! BUT what you can't see is they jammed a set of drum brakes inside the hubs just for the E-brake.
GO figure how your upgrades are really down grade!
| furrylittleotter wrote: |
| insyncro wrote: |
GoWesty has not added rear discs to their line.
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Purely speculation but I would venture to say that is because they have determined they offer no benefit to braking power.
Neil2 |
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vanonimous
Samba Member
Joined: October 19, 2013
Posts: 362
Location: Burien, Center of the Universe
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| Posted: Mon Dec 01, 2014 9:27 pm Post subject: |
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For any of you installing SCP rear disc brake kit: E brake works great but you have to pay attention when setting free play on cables going to caliper E brake arms. Just like on drums you have set the free play to almost zero. That way you are not using the E brake handle movement to take up free play. This also affects pedal travel.
Make sure plastic cable housing tube-spacers are exact same length. When tightening adjuster nut take all free play out and go spin the rear wheels to feel just slight drag. It has to be the same on both wheels. Go back under van and loosen the adjuster nut about 1/2 turn.
And don’t let some self proclaimed backyard knucklehead mechanic install your brakes incorrectly. 
_________________
If happiness is being a mechanic, owning a Vanagon is nirvana.
Lighting upgrades: https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=578291 |
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insyncro
Banned
Joined: March 07, 2002
Posts: 15086
Location: New York
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| Posted: Mon Dec 01, 2014 9:32 pm Post subject: |
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| vanonimous wrote: |
For any of you installing SCP rear disc brake kit: E brake works great but you have to pay attention when setting free play on cables going to caliper E brake arms. Just like on drums you have set the free play to almost zero. That way you are not using the E brake handle movement to take up free play. This also affects pedal travel.
Make sure plastic cable housing tube-spacers are exact same length. When tightening adjuster nut take all free play out and go spin the rear wheels to feel just slight drag. It has to be the same on both wheels. Go back under van and loosen the adjuster nut about 1/2 turn.
And don’t let some self proclaimed backyard knucklehead mechanic install your brakes incorrectly. |
This is why I use custom cables with adjustability at both ends.
I tried the spacers, but it didn't work for me.
The custom cables offer emergency brake hold for a heavy Syncro Westy in precarious off road situations...that you can wholeheartedly trust. |
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vanonimous
Samba Member
Joined: October 19, 2013
Posts: 362
Location: Burien, Center of the Universe
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| Posted: Mon Dec 01, 2014 10:01 pm Post subject: |
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Actual lockable metal cable adjusters? That would be technically correct solution to use for this upgrade. I was able to make the spacers work but I had to adjust the length of one of them multiple times to get to correct position. Also they compress a little after a while so re-adjustment is necessary. Next kit I might hit you up for some custom cables. Same cable for 2WD/4WD?
_________________
If happiness is being a mechanic, owning a Vanagon is nirvana.
Lighting upgrades: https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=578291 |
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insyncro
Banned
Joined: March 07, 2002
Posts: 15086
Location: New York
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Signalocity
Samba Member
Joined: February 13, 2012
Posts: 573
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| Posted: Tue Dec 02, 2014 7:24 am Post subject: |
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| BavarianWrench wrote: |
Signalocity Every time I see the underside of your rig I have to ask, did you ever win any awards from Round Table, BMWNA tech tips? Clean documentation and the rig blows my mind every time.
Thanks |
I am not a tech, so luckily, I am not subjected to round table lol. I did see a couple of execs nosing around it a few weeks ago though. Thanks again! |
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Signalocity
Samba Member
Joined: February 13, 2012
Posts: 573
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| Posted: Tue Dec 02, 2014 7:38 am Post subject: |
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| insyncro wrote: |
| vanonimous wrote: |
For any of you installing SCP rear disc brake kit: E brake works great but you have to pay attention when setting free play on cables going to caliper E brake arms. Just like on drums you have set the free play to almost zero. That way you are not using the E brake handle movement to take up free play. This also affects pedal travel.
Make sure plastic cable housing tube-spacers are exact same length. When tightening adjuster nut take all free play out and go spin the rear wheels to feel just slight drag. It has to be the same on both wheels. Go back under van and loosen the adjuster nut about 1/2 turn.
And don’t let some self proclaimed backyard knucklehead mechanic install your brakes incorrectly. |
This is why I use custom cables with adjustability at both ends.
I tried the spacers, but it didn't work for me.
The custom cables offer emergency brake hold for a heavy Syncro Westy in precarious off road situations...that you can wholeheartedly trust. |
| vanonimous wrote: |
| Actual lockable metal cable adjusters? That would be technically correct solution to use for this upgrade. I was able to make the spacers work but I had to adjust the length of one of them multiple times to get to correct position. Also they compress a little after a while so re-adjustment is necessary. Next kit I might hit you up for some custom cables. Same cable for 2WD/4WD? |
I had the spacers on and off at least a dozen times, before I was satisfied with them. It came down to a mm here, slight bend there type of scenario. The E-brake is holding well on both wheels and I am more than comfortable with its grip. Custom cables are not off the table, and might be something I revisit down the road, but I have been happy with the set up since replacing the plastic spacers. |
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Abscate
Samba Member
Joined: October 05, 2014
Posts: 22673
Location: NYC/Upstate/ROW
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| Posted: Tue Dec 02, 2014 8:20 am Post subject: |
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FWIW - the e-brake on the Eurovan is the 'Audi' type with a an actuator and rotating piston like these upgrade kits.
I don't think I can lock my wheels with my e-brake, but I can certainly strain the engine trying to move the car with it on. (My EV is a slush box)
I know my e-brake works well as I launch and retrieve a 4000 pound boat with it on a ramp leading to water - no parking brake, no boating that day.
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.ssS! |
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alaskadan
Samba Member
Joined: January 09, 2013
Posts: 1858
Location: anchor pt. alaska
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| Posted: Tue Dec 02, 2014 8:45 am Post subject: |
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Just curious here. I read the first three pages and skipped to the last here. The was mention of a hydraulic line lock. Has anything been done with one . I own an old derek digger boom truck that has on in it. Push down on the brake, flip the lever and done. 30 something thousand pound vehicle no problems.
I guess it would really be an emergency brake in that it relies on brake fluid. |
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insyncro
Banned
Joined: March 07, 2002
Posts: 15086
Location: New York
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| Posted: Tue Dec 02, 2014 9:03 am Post subject: |
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| Yes, a few very well built Syncros I know of have line locks. |
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alaskadan
Samba Member
Joined: January 09, 2013
Posts: 1858
Location: anchor pt. alaska
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| Posted: Tue Dec 02, 2014 9:07 am Post subject: |
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| And,..were they worth the trouble? |
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