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?Waldo?
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Joined: February 22, 2006
Posts: 9752
Location: Where?
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 Posted: Thu Aug 15, 2013 1:48 pm Post subject: |
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| Are you holding that corner of the van up with the jack stand under the sprung part of the trailing arm? |
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Sodo
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Joined: July 06, 2007
Posts: 9673
Location: Western WA
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| Posted: Thu Aug 15, 2013 2:36 pm Post subject: |
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jack stand is not the only rule broken here  .....thx for your interest but plea to keep on-topic
TOPIC is "Rear disc upgrade = NO parking brake"
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| hans j wrote: |
| So It's fixed and the parking brakes work? How many clicks on the handle until they hold solid? |
I got it all back together and drove the van. The parking brake works now but it is very very substandard. What do you mean by hold solid? Skid the tires in gravel? Not a chance in hell. With the van rolling like 5mph, the speed diminished a little more than with no brake at all. Eventually reaches the static friction point and you feel it stop.
I can drive the van in 2nd gear and pull the handbrake HARD, and maintain 10mph in 2nd gear with the brake full-on, indefinitely. (with a 2.5L Subaru) This is a very weak handbrake.
Maybe it will burn in but I am doubting. I drove with it on for awhile, maybe 1/4 mile until it got pretty hot and actually it seems weaker. If I reverse the van and use the footbrake, it's hella strong brake.
Can some of you with rear disc brakes try to dream up a driving test that can be repeated and we can compared parking brake-power over the internet?
| hans j wrote: |
| If the kit was new, what was the cause of the failed park brake mechanism in the caliper? |
Probably the total failure of the mechanism was me jacking the pads out with the footbrake instead of using the park brake actuator. However i intitialized it correctly now and the mechanism works now. Just that the brake has no power.
I don't think brake power can be discussed well until we figure out a method to compare e-brake power over the internet. Some folks might be perfectly happy with this weak parking brake but I'm disgusted by it. I park on hills all the time camping, 4wheeling etc (but not at my house its level).
_________________
'90 Westy EJ25, NEW oil rings (!) 2Peloquins, 3knobs, pressure-oiled GT mainshaft, filtered, cooled gearbox
'87 Tintop w 47k 53k, '12 SmallCar EJ25, cooled filtered gearbox
....KTMs, GasGas, SPOT mtb |
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hans j
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Joined: May 06, 2006
Posts: 2720
Location: Salt Lake City UT
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| Posted: Thu Aug 15, 2013 3:03 pm Post subject: |
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Now that it's back together, how high up does the park brake handle go? How about now trying those vice grips in between the washer and the caliper to take up the slack?
Usually a good brake will skid on dirt when pulled, but I'll think of something. even with syncro, you should be able to raise one wheel, apply park brake with fingers/lever and get the wheel to lock up. Unless you have a solid shaft all the time or your VC is locked up, it sould at least turn slightly. This might take two people...
_________________
1986 Canadian Syncro Westy TDI - 1989 Syncro Single Cab - 2001 Audi S4 - 1981 VW Caddy ABA - 1980 VW Caddy EV - 1973 VW T-181 |
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Sodo
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Joined: July 06, 2007
Posts: 9673
Location: Western WA
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| Posted: Thu Aug 15, 2013 3:20 pm Post subject: |
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5 or 6 clicks feels like a normal parking brake pull. At 9 clicks it feels like the handbrake mechanism is going to bust or at least fold over.
Stopping power at 5 clicks is almost un-detectable. At 9 clicks there is a little bit of braking power, but 9 clicks is unreasonable tension. My wife would never pull it that hard.
| hans j wrote: |
| Usually a good brake will skid on dirt when pulled |
Those are my thoughts - that a 2WD should skid the rear wheels, at LEAST on gravel.
With a syncro, unable to skid the wheel, it would transfer some stopping power to the front wheels and stop harder than a 2WD because of no skidding. But there's no stopping power anyway.
_________________
'90 Westy EJ25, NEW oil rings (!) 2Peloquins, 3knobs, pressure-oiled GT mainshaft, filtered, cooled gearbox
'87 Tintop w 47k 53k, '12 SmallCar EJ25, cooled filtered gearbox
....KTMs, GasGas, SPOT mtb |
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insyncro
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Joined: March 07, 2002
Posts: 15086
Location: New York
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| Posted: Thu Aug 15, 2013 5:09 pm Post subject: |
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Nine clicks equals completely stretched cables.
It could have happened years ago.
Someone else driving the van even.
I have seen that numerous times. |
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Sodo
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Joined: July 06, 2007
Posts: 9673
Location: Western WA
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| Posted: Thu Aug 15, 2013 5:20 pm Post subject: |
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| insyncro wrote: |
Nine clicks equals completely stretched cables.
It could have happened years ago.
Someone else driving the van even.
I have seen that numerous times. |
One cable is new, other is 4 years old and good condition. And the middle is original.
You are puzzling me a little with counts of clicks. These vans have an adjustment in the middle. I can change the number of clicks with his adjustment.
Furthermore the handle used to actuate a big gangly contraption of drum brake linkages with long levers and pushrods, now it actuates a very short throw lever at about 1/2 the throw. I don't understand how you guys can gauge anything from the number of clicks. What am I missing here?
Braking power comes from cable tension, no more no less. If I'm pulling so hard on the handle that it's about to crumple, then nobody has more tension, stretched cable or new.
_________________
'90 Westy EJ25, NEW oil rings (!) 2Peloquins, 3knobs, pressure-oiled GT mainshaft, filtered, cooled gearbox
'87 Tintop w 47k 53k, '12 SmallCar EJ25, cooled filtered gearbox
....KTMs, GasGas, SPOT mtb |
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insyncro
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Joined: March 07, 2002
Posts: 15086
Location: New York
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| Posted: Thu Aug 15, 2013 5:34 pm Post subject: |
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I just thought of something.
The Syncro has asymmetrical length brake cables.
Any chance you have mixed them up or possibly had two of the longer ones in place since day one?
Just a hunch.
Trying to help, but what you have been saying makes no sense to me.
I am sorry for any confusion, again trying to help. |
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Sodo
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Joined: July 06, 2007
Posts: 9673
Location: Western WA
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| Posted: Thu Aug 15, 2013 5:38 pm Post subject: |
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| insyncro wrote: |
| Any chance you have mixed them up or possibly had two of the longer ones in place since day one? |
What would be the effect on the braking system if this were the case?
Or if the cables were stretched? Do you run out of adjustment?
No problem here with adjustment - it's all tight all adjusted 5 clicks for normal pull. As I wrote earlier at 9 clicks, (the handle is about to crumple) it's pulled way harder than designed to pull.
_________________
'90 Westy EJ25, NEW oil rings (!) 2Peloquins, 3knobs, pressure-oiled GT mainshaft, filtered, cooled gearbox
'87 Tintop w 47k 53k, '12 SmallCar EJ25, cooled filtered gearbox
....KTMs, GasGas, SPOT mtb
Last edited by Sodo on Thu Aug 15, 2013 5:42 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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insyncro
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Joined: March 07, 2002
Posts: 15086
Location: New York
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| Posted: Thu Aug 15, 2013 5:42 pm Post subject: |
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Van Cafe photo of the Syncro 16 cables to illustrate the slight difference.
The 14" versions have two different part numbers, one right one left.
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insyncro
Banned
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Posts: 15086
Location: New York
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| Posted: Thu Aug 15, 2013 5:43 pm Post subject: |
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| Sodo wrote: |
| insyncro wrote: |
| Any chance you have mixed them up or possibly had two of the longer ones in place since day one? |
What would be the effect on the braking system if this were the case? |
Yanking to full extension of the brake handle with nothing happening at the other end  |
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Sodo
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Joined: July 06, 2007
Posts: 9673
Location: Western WA
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| Posted: Thu Aug 15, 2013 5:45 pm Post subject: |
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With the Smallcar rear disc brake kit you use:
- a driverside cable with an extension tube on the drivers side, appx 3 inches extended.
- a 2WD passenger side cable on the passenger side, again with an extension tube appx 3 inches extended
And then you ADJUST it with the one nut in the middle until the handle position is where you want it at a reasonable pull. 5-clicks; for example.
_________________
'90 Westy EJ25, NEW oil rings (!) 2Peloquins, 3knobs, pressure-oiled GT mainshaft, filtered, cooled gearbox
'87 Tintop w 47k 53k, '12 SmallCar EJ25, cooled filtered gearbox
....KTMs, GasGas, SPOT mtb
Last edited by Sodo on Thu Aug 15, 2013 5:46 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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insyncro
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Location: New York
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| Posted: Thu Aug 15, 2013 5:45 pm Post subject: |
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IIRC the passenger side is the longer cable.
Check the part number of the new cable and if visible see if you can find one on the used cable. |
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insyncro
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| Posted: Thu Aug 15, 2013 5:47 pm Post subject: |
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OK, again, I have custom cables made as I don't like extensions.
Sorry for any further confusion. |
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Sodo
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Joined: July 06, 2007
Posts: 9673
Location: Western WA
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| Posted: Thu Aug 15, 2013 5:49 pm Post subject: |
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| insyncro wrote: |
| Sodo wrote: |
| insyncro wrote: |
| Any chance you have mixed them up or possibly had two of the longer ones in place since day one? |
What would be the effect on the braking system if this were the case? |
Yanking to full extension of the brake handle with nothing happening at the other end |
If nothing is happening at the other end the handle would not be on the verge of crumpling at 9 clicks.
Wait you're not yanking me are you?
_________________
'90 Westy EJ25, NEW oil rings (!) 2Peloquins, 3knobs, pressure-oiled GT mainshaft, filtered, cooled gearbox
'87 Tintop w 47k 53k, '12 SmallCar EJ25, cooled filtered gearbox
....KTMs, GasGas, SPOT mtb |
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insyncro
Banned
Joined: March 07, 2002
Posts: 15086
Location: New York
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| Posted: Thu Aug 15, 2013 5:53 pm Post subject: |
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| Sodo wrote: |
Wait you're not yanking me are you? |
Nope, truly trying to get to the bottom of this.
I am lost and feel for ya.
I drove my Syncro with my G60s upfront and Burley's kit in the rear with my refinements today.
It brakes as fast as it accelerates...H6 and I pulled the e brake 5 clicks at 35mph and left two marks of rubber in front of my shop. |
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Sodo
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Joined: July 06, 2007
Posts: 9673
Location: Western WA
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| Posted: Thu Aug 15, 2013 6:06 pm Post subject: |
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| insyncro wrote: |
| I pulled the e brake 5 clicks at 35mph and left two marks of rubber in front of my shop. |
Thanks for that. You have a decoupler I suppose. That sounds like an emergency brake that can be used in emergency.
I wasn't born yesterday either. I can figure stuff out. My brother and I did 2 Subary EJ22 conversions in 12 days back in 1999, you might remember this website if you were into it back then. 14 years ago there wasn't a lot of guidance for conversions you had to be able to do it all yourself.
historical site: http://tm3.us/urabus/
_________________
'90 Westy EJ25, NEW oil rings (!) 2Peloquins, 3knobs, pressure-oiled GT mainshaft, filtered, cooled gearbox
'87 Tintop w 47k 53k, '12 SmallCar EJ25, cooled filtered gearbox
....KTMs, GasGas, SPOT mtb |
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insyncro
Banned
Joined: March 07, 2002
Posts: 15086
Location: New York
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| Posted: Thu Aug 15, 2013 6:20 pm Post subject: |
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| Sodo wrote: |
| insyncro wrote: |
| I pulled the e brake 5 clicks at 35mph and left two marks of rubber in front of my shop. |
Thanks for that. You have a decoupler I suppose. That sounds like an emergency brake that can be used in emergency.
I wasn't born yesterday either. I can figure stuff out. My brother and I did 2 Subary EJ22 conversions in 12 days back in 1999, you might remember this website if you were into it back then. 14 years ago there wasn't a lot of guidance for conversions you had to be able to do it all yourself.
historical site: http://tm3.us/urabus/ |
Yup decoupled and in summertime mode with street wheels and tires.
Again, just trying to figure this out from here, but seem to be grasping at straws. |
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furrylittleotter
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Joined: May 19, 2008
Posts: 1506
Location: West Seattle
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| Posted: Thu Aug 15, 2013 6:23 pm Post subject: |
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Interestingly enough it seems the topic tends to be quite divided: THEY WORK GREAT! vs THEY SUCK! I have noticed many high end cars use a drum for a parking brake in addition to the rear brake rotors which tells me parking brakes via disc brakes may not be the greatest idea.
I do know that well adjusted rear drum assemblies not only stop more than adequately (even with my 4 piston front brake setup) they also work fine as parking brakes, so I don't "Get" rear disc conversions. Front brake conversions are another story. I consider them mandatory.
Neil2 |
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insyncro
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Location: New York
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| Posted: Thu Aug 15, 2013 6:27 pm Post subject: |
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| On Derek's build, he went with Syncro 16" rear drum. |
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Sodo
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Posts: 9673
Location: Western WA
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| Posted: Thu Aug 15, 2013 6:43 pm Post subject: |
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| furrylittleotter wrote: |
Interestingly enough it seems the topic tends to be quite divided: THEY WORK GREAT! vs THEY SUCK!
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Yes there is clearly a problem. Before I heard guys saying "they're great!" I thought it was just one of those albatross kits that everyone wanted so bad they couldn't admit it was crap.
Even so, ONLY Dylan says (thus far) he can lock up his rear wheels on pavement. I would be thrilled to lock them on gravel, but as it is I can barely detect anything slowing the van down, really totally ineffective. And holding power on a hill, well if the car can roll at all on the slight hill the brake can't stop it. Driving with the handbrake full-on, after about 1/4 mile the discs are very very hot, but...... they don't stop the car. It's a total loss as a handbrake.
| furrylittleotter wrote: |
I have noticed many high end cars use a drum for a parking brake in addition to the rear brake rotors |
Disc brakes handle heat much better they are good for stopping from fast, or sustained braking. Drum brakes are better for static holding power, when you are stopped they stay stopped and they are self energizing which means the rotation of the wheel adds to their holding power.
The disc brakes are much more powerful as a footbrake though, it's beneficial for loaded vans, big wheels and big engines that let you drive faster. But if I knew the handbrake would go away, I NEVER would have bought discs.
_________________
'90 Westy EJ25, NEW oil rings (!) 2Peloquins, 3knobs, pressure-oiled GT mainshaft, filtered, cooled gearbox
'87 Tintop w 47k 53k, '12 SmallCar EJ25, cooled filtered gearbox
....KTMs, GasGas, SPOT mtb |
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