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sinclair Samba Member
Joined: July 01, 2004 Posts: 399 Location: New Forest UK
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Posted: Tue Mar 26, 2024 5:01 am Post subject: Finally out of hiding. February 1944 Type 60 KDF |
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Last year I was lucky enough to acquire an unusual early chassis. It had belonged to a friend for many years which helped when it came to tracing some of its history. It came to him underneath a Kubelwagen, but he quickly realised it was not original to the body and was in fact early beetle, he replaced it with a correct 82 chassis. So for many years it sat to one side.
I've been able to trace its history back to 1980's Czechoslovakia. Where this very solid and original saloon chassis was used to replace that of a fairly rusty 41 Kubelwagen. Unfortunately at that time they removed the Vin plate from the tunnel behind the gearstick and refitted the plate from the Kubel in front of the gearstick with plumbers solder. there was evidence of the original vin welds, more on that later.
The chassis itself is in really solid original condition. there are some early gas weld repairs and a battery tray repair but all else is factory. Interestingly one side of the rear suspension has the correct cog logo casting and the other an earlier windmill style. Also the drivers pan has a drain hole punched out for a late Kubel but the other has not. Both original factory fitment and the hole neatly covered from new.
So what indicates it being a beetle? No floor drains, no bash plate fixings, internal heater cable, original vin location and captive nut in the frame head for the barrel tank support. "Ah!" I hear someone say "the first Kubels also had this captive nut." True, but my chassis is all original factory welded and has later parts, so cannot be an earlier. But also the frame head number is clearly stamped and correct for early 1944.
I will admit that by this time I was staring to feel the burden of responsibility. To build this car properly will not be cheap. And I retired early to enjoy a frugal and simple life in the woods! However the combination of a lifetime in engineering after studying archaeology at uni has meant I just can't let go of it.
So why the mix of floor and casting? You have to consider that in 1944 the factory was churning out thousands of kubels for the war effort and only a small percentage, around 120 beetles. Short supply of materials and a captive workforce who were "less than keen" and it's easy to see how one incorrect pan could have been selected and an earlier casting being found in the parts bin. (in my industry parts were forever being taken for various reasons and returned to stock sometimes years later)
So back to my frame head number, which is key.
I was lucky to discover that it is very close indeed to another surviving car with a known vin, that car being an 82e. I had read that by 44 all paint was sand colour but my chassis still has a lot of its dark grey under the red lead and silver,
especially internally. However counting back through the production list from the known car gave me vin 1-034133, a type 60 supplied NSDAP Munich which would explain the non military paint maybe. Though I note there is a well known 44 type 82e with the same chassis paint. While there is no overall direct correlation over time between the chassis frame head number and the vin it is given. I made an assumption that 2 cars built in say the same morning shift and only a few vin numbers apart, may use chassis built and stamped sequentially too.
My archaeological training tells me take it slowly and be in no rush to blast and restore the chassis until it had revealed all its secrets. Inspired by Ondrej Broom and his excellent book, I was keen to try some new techniques or non destructive paint removal, one of which being laser cleaning.
test areas to reveal the dark grey were not positive as the laser favours removal of dark colour. but it was very good at surface rust and exposing detail. it removes everything without dimensional change to the metal. It's expensive at £600/day but I managed to get a free trial. I especially wanted the original vin area laser cleaned to look closely at the tag plate welds.The original vin plate being welded to the chassis there was no chance of finding any stamping underneath but I decided to concentrate on that area before it went to be blasted. I used a combination of dusting paint, very gentle rubbing back, acid and low power laser. In the correct light you could almost imagine seeing something, so I persevered looking closely seemed to make it disappear, but when photographed and the contrast etc edited numbers became visible. What I have discovered is certainly not my vin stamping, because I think the plate would have been stamped before being fitted. This is the shadow of where the stamped numbers contacted the chassis tunnel and the marks left by their ageing together over the years.
interestingly the large image in the gallery is illegible where as the thumbnail is quite clear. the eye needs to ignore the detail to make the picture visible as a whole it seems. So I have my vin confirmed at last. 1-034133 Build 22nd February 1944 a type 60L.
This chassis still has secrets to reveal. One being the notches on the heater cable conduit.
these slots were not evident in earlier cars or immediate post war, but look to have been machined before the conduit was installed. another well known car from 44 shares this feature and has a clip fitted to stop the cable from sliding back and closing off the heat exchangers.
The next step is a visit to the grit blasters ensuring I am there for every step of the process.
I debated long and hard about making this public, as it seems the older and more valuable the car, the more vocal and entrenched opinions can be and knowledge kept close to the chest. I have been lucky to find a handful of quiet enthusiasts across Europe, focusing on early 40's saloons who have little or no social media or internet presence and the most generous of attitudes when it comes to sharing knowledge and parts. But my hope is that by documenting the build here on thesamba, it may lead to making new contacts and at the very least give the car the chance to say to the world "Hey! I'm still here"
Last edited by sinclair on Thu Mar 28, 2024 3:13 am; edited 7 times in total |
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TRS63 Samba Member
Joined: December 17, 2017 Posts: 1010 Location: Stuttgart - Germany
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sinclair Samba Member
Joined: July 01, 2004 Posts: 399 Location: New Forest UK
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Posted: Tue Mar 26, 2024 6:26 am Post subject: Re: Out of hiding. February 1944 Type 60 KDF |
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TRS63 wrote: |
That is excellent ! My knowledge on 40s cars is really low but I appreciate a lot you sharing it here to enjoy and learn ! Thanks!
Bests
Antoine |
Thank you Antoine. There are so few of these cars that it's a bit of an adventure. Written information does not always match what left the factory so this digging deep can challenge perceptions. As in the case of the heater cable. No factory record does not mean it didn't happen, especially if there are more than one example.
There are some questions that will never be answered. How did it survive so well? It was evidently used for many years hence the battery tray repair. But at some point it became separated from it's body. I can see no heavy collision damage. But maybe it was rolled then laid up somewhere dry. It's not unusual, many war time cars no longer have the body they left the factory with and visa versa. |
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finster Samba Member
Joined: May 26, 2012 Posts: 8027 Location: north o' the border
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Posted: Tue Mar 26, 2024 1:28 pm Post subject: Re: Out of hiding. February 1944 Type 60 KDF |
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interesting 'carchaeology'. by the term 'windmill' logo do you mean the spinning swastika?
what's the plan with the build? _________________ "we're here on Earth to fart around" kurt vonnegut
nothing lasts, nothing is finished, and nothing is perfect... |
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sinclair Samba Member
Joined: July 01, 2004 Posts: 399 Location: New Forest UK
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Posted: Tue Mar 26, 2024 2:18 pm Post subject: Re: Out of hiding. February 1944 Type 60 KDF |
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finster wrote: |
interesting 'carchaeology'. by the term 'windmill' logo do you mean the spinning swastika?
what's the plan with the build? |
Yes that’s correct. Here’s a still from the a video. Shame I can’t up load that.
The other side is cog.
Plan for now is to get the rolling chassis together. |
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EverettB Administrator
Joined: April 11, 2000 Posts: 69879 Location: Phoenix Metro
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Eric&Barb Samba Member
Joined: September 19, 2004 Posts: 24829 Location: Olympia Wash Rinse & Repeat
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Posted: Tue Mar 26, 2024 7:37 pm Post subject: Re: Out of hiding. February 1944 Type 60 KDF |
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Most excellent!! _________________ In Stereo, Where Available! |
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sinclair Samba Member
Joined: July 01, 2004 Posts: 399 Location: New Forest UK
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Posted: Wed Mar 27, 2024 3:07 am Post subject: Re: Out of hiding. February 1944 Type 60 KDF |
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EverettB wrote: |
Interesting thread, thanks for posting.
YouTube and post the link here |
For anyone interested, I managed to get this uploaded. It took 2 hours, my internet connection is mostly copper with the final section being through a twig.
Link
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DDub Samba Member
Joined: January 06, 2005 Posts: 309 Location: central pa.
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Posted: Wed Mar 27, 2024 5:39 am Post subject: Re: Out of hiding. February 1944 Type 60 KDF |
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So how does the laser know when to stop burning? Is that operated controlled or does it just cut through rust and dirt? |
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sinclair Samba Member
Joined: July 01, 2004 Posts: 399 Location: New Forest UK
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Posted: Wed Mar 27, 2024 5:54 am Post subject: Re: Out of hiding. February 1944 Type 60 KDF |
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DDub wrote: |
So how does the laser know when to stop burning? Is that operated controlled or does it just cut through rust and dirt? |
Oh thats not how it works. It’ll never effect the metal, you can literally remove pencil from a written page by laser without damage.
In this video we were removing thin layers in an attempt to get through the red and silver paint to reveal the original dark grey.
Link
Here removing thick layers without any damage to the metal.
Link
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DDub Samba Member
Joined: January 06, 2005 Posts: 309 Location: central pa.
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Posted: Wed Mar 27, 2024 7:58 am Post subject: Re: Out of hiding. February 1944 Type 60 KDF |
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OK, what I am asking is the intensity adjustable? Or does the operator have to make sure it doesn't cut into the good metal? |
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sinclair Samba Member
Joined: July 01, 2004 Posts: 399 Location: New Forest UK
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Posted: Wed Mar 27, 2024 9:51 am Post subject: Re: Out of hiding. February 1944 Type 60 KDF |
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DDub wrote: |
OK, what I am asking is the intensity adjustable? Or does the operator have to make sure it doesn't cut into the good metal? |
Infinitely adjustable and unable to cut into metal. |
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DDub Samba Member
Joined: January 06, 2005 Posts: 309 Location: central pa.
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Posted: Wed Mar 27, 2024 10:21 am Post subject: Re: Out of hiding. February 1944 Type 60 KDF |
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Obviously I have no experience with this. looks impressive. Is it expensive to buy or rent or do you have to pay someone else to do it? |
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sinclair Samba Member
Joined: July 01, 2004 Posts: 399 Location: New Forest UK
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Posted: Wed Mar 27, 2024 11:45 am Post subject: Re: Out of hiding. February 1944 Type 60 KDF |
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DDub wrote: |
Obviously I have no experience with this. looks impressive. Is it expensive to buy or rent or do you have to pay someone else to do it? |
£50k to buy, or like I say a mobile guy is £600/day. A whole chassis might take a week. If it could have left the original paint in place I’d have done it. But the layers and coverage was too patchy to differentiate. The silver reflects and the dark grey absorbs making it impossible to get a consistent layer removed. In the end we concentrated on the logo’s and number stamped areas which really paid off. The next step is blasting with plastic bead rather than an abrasive. |
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TornadoRed06 Samba Member
Joined: August 30, 2020 Posts: 201 Location: Porto - Portugal
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Posted: Wed Mar 27, 2024 2:58 pm Post subject: Re: Out of hiding. February 1944 Type 60 KDF |
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First of all, congratulations for embracing this project. I would like to express gratitude for documenting & sharing all this here at The Samba. Hope that one day all of us can see it fully refurbished and built. |
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cyberdyne systems 101 Sambanator
Joined: September 03, 2004 Posts: 416 Location: in my own little world
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Posted: Thu Mar 28, 2024 6:50 am Post subject: Re: Finally out of hiding. February 1944 Type 60 KDF |
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So glad you posted about this, really interesting to read and, amazing that you were so able to identify the vin despite its removal.
I hope you'll update this thread as and when you have more to add. _________________ When I think of something to say - I'll be the first to know
56' Oval
71' Westy |
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maplesyrup Samba Member
Joined: May 27, 2009 Posts: 183 Location: Bristol
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Posted: Thu Mar 28, 2024 12:50 pm Post subject: Re: Finally out of hiding. February 1944 Type 60 KDF |
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This will be fun, thanks for sharing _________________ Bugger |
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sotos Samba Member
Joined: November 15, 2014 Posts: 71
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Posted: Thu Mar 28, 2024 3:09 pm Post subject: Re: Finally out of hiding. February 1944 Type 60 KDF |
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Most ingenius ! Great post , great project. _________________ http://www.komenda-porsche-designer.at/
Oval53 (June)
Beetle 1.3 1966
New beetle 1.6 2003 |
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