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SnowDaySyncro Samba Member
Joined: August 31, 2006 Posts: 92 Location: Hartford, CT USA
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Posted: Mon Jan 01, 2024 2:23 pm Post subject: Re: Super Challenge: Saving my first car from a fallen tree |
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One more pie-in-sky tangent and then back to real-world assessing and procuring.
There is a peripheral project for this car that I've been dreaming and sketching for a few years:
One of my automotive kinks is that I love a good matching trailer, not just paint-matched, I mean 1.5 vehicles rolling down the road.
I've seen photos of a few Beetle variations on the theme. Some were basically the flat-fronted arse of a bug from the B-pillar rearward, which I didn't really like for their abruptness of form. Some were more pared-down motorcycle toters that were mostly a flatbed with the rear fenders and apron of a bug. One was a bug body reimagined as a teardrop trailer, which was sorta cool, but not quite what I want.
The two concepts from the aforementioned that I do really like are a small camper and a motorcycle trailer, so how about both? What I'm imagining is a shape that includes a complete Super nose, sans fenders, flowing back to a rear clip with fenders and at least the lower half of an engine lid, enough for a stock license plate light. The vestigial trunk and engine lids would be part of a single fiberglass cap that could be raised like a pop-up camper or removed to carry a motorcycle. The motorcycle is a whole other project, but also happens to be an air-cooled horizontally-opposed, German machine from 1971. This is a sloppy doodle of the basic idea. The tape measure tells me that shortening the body by deleting the door openings will leave sufficient length for a long-wheelbase R75, and more than enough for adult humans to bed down.
This was going to be slated to build after the car in the before tree times (BT?) BUT,
Now I'm thinking that making the trailer first would be a good way to sharpen my welding and fabricating chops before taking on more crucial structural work on the car. It would also take up less workspace in-progress, and might be small enough to do at our local Makerspace which I belong to, and where there is often somebody else around who knows a lot more than I know. This would also mean snagging a utility trailer frame, or, more enticingly, an IRS pan with at least the rear 2/3 or so salvageable.
Okay, I'm going to float back down to earth and plan to assess what I have, what can potentially be saved, and what needs to be replaced. In the spirit of monthly progress, that's my January goal: to spend a few hours poking, prodding, measuring, and taking notes to form a more structured plan.
Last edited by SnowDaySyncro on Sat Jan 20, 2024 8:48 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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TDCTDI Samba Advocatus Diaboli
Joined: August 31, 2013 Posts: 12862 Location: North Carolina
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Posted: Mon Jan 01, 2024 2:33 pm Post subject: Re: Super Challenge: Saving my first car from a fallen tree |
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You’re in luck, that 71 shell comes with two pans. _________________ Everybody born before 1975 has a story, good, bad, or indifferent, about a VW.
GOFUNDYOURSELF, quit asking everyone to do it for you!
An air cooled VW will make you a hoarder.
Do something, anything, to your project every day, and you will eventually complete it. |
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SnowDaySyncro Samba Member
Joined: August 31, 2006 Posts: 92 Location: Hartford, CT USA
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Posted: Mon Jan 01, 2024 2:47 pm Post subject: Re: Super Challenge: Saving my first car from a fallen tree |
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TDCTDI wrote: |
You’re in luck, that 71 shell comes with two pans. |
You are shaping up to be a most excellent enabler!
Other January goal: trailer tweaks (for existing trailer) and tow vehicle wiring. |
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SnowDaySyncro Samba Member
Joined: August 31, 2006 Posts: 92 Location: Hartford, CT USA
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Posted: Sat Jan 20, 2024 1:54 pm Post subject: Re: Super Challenge: Saving my first car from a fallen tree |
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JANUARY ACTION: Assessment, topside.
In keeping with my intention to do something each month, today's task was to inspect the car from front to back, to get a better idea of what can/should be saved and what needs replacement. One advantage here is that, aside from the amateur rattlecan flame job I did at 16, the car is wearing its original paint. The only body filler is localized and blatantly obvious.
NOSE/TRUNK:
Okay, useable. Nose has never been hit, strut towers are solid, spare well feels solid when probed through that nasty mass of varmint nest. Driver side quarter is pushed inwards at fender mounting surface. Trunk lid has no rot, very little surface rust, and some creasing from someone climbing on top. I consider all of the above to be repairable.
RIGHT SIDE:
Lower quarter and complete heater channel need replacement. Door has some rust bubbling and one small dent. I already have the lower quarter repair panel, and the damaged driver side door can provide patching metal as well as the planned factory mirror mount. Crescent vent area shows no sign of rot.
LEFT SIDE:
This has been the bad side of the car for 45 years. It was sideswiped in the mid-1970s and the previous owner did the sort of backyard bodywork that makes me wish Bondo was a controlled substance. I replaced the front fender and driver's door circa 1991 to get rid of the worst of it, but the quarters and rear fender still have that stucco-over-rust thing going. This side also had the worst heater channel and took the brunt of the tree impact, so it's a goner. The top of the door is distorted and pinched shut at the top rear corner, while the bottom rear corner has a gap of about 20mm. The crescent vent area shows no sign of death foam rot.
The roof is, obviously very bad. While I am still planning to see how straight I can get the structure, I think that replacing the roof will be the best course of action.
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Buggeee Samba Member
Joined: December 22, 2016 Posts: 4427 Location: Stuck in Ohio
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SnowDaySyncro Samba Member
Joined: August 31, 2006 Posts: 92 Location: Hartford, CT USA
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Posted: Sun Mar 03, 2024 5:44 pm Post subject: Re: Super Challenge: Saving my first car from a fallen tree |
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FEBRUARY ACTION: Stripping seats
There were lots of animal nests in the car, consisting of that greyish felt padding that covers parts of the hair padding from the factory. I decided to strip the seats down to the frames to remove the source of nesting materials, and the seats are going to be refurbished of course, anyway. Tearing into the seats unsurprisingly revealed more nesting areas and lots of nut husks. It was a nasty endeavor to be sure. I scooped out the mass in the spare well also. It was late afternoon when I began, so I ran out of daylight before I could remove remaining carpet or bust out the HEPA shop vac.
By the time I called it a day, I had fillled 3/4 of a trash can with crusty old vinyl, seat padding, and animal detritus.
March action will be a continuation of February's, probably pretty soon |
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SnowDaySyncro Samba Member
Joined: August 31, 2006 Posts: 92 Location: Hartford, CT USA
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Posted: Mon Mar 11, 2024 3:24 am Post subject: Re: Super Challenge: Saving my first car from a fallen tree |
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MARCH ACTION: Moving metal, removing seats.
This month's visit was mostly spent cleaning and stripping out interior bits. I removed the rear and passenger seats (driver's seat wouldn't budge), carpet, headlining, and the many nasty animal leavings mixed in.
With the rear seat out, I was eager to give the new hydraulic kit a whirl, and it didn't disappoint! I improvised some wood bracing on the package shelf and maneuvered the ram and fittings into place against the lowest spot on the upper edge of the rear window opening.
Several pumps later, the opening was looking much more window-ready than before.
I tried to do another push against the roof from the right rear seat area, using a chunk of the actual tree trunk that crushed it as a "dolly".
Those results weren't nearly as good as the first session, but gave me a better idea of how to proceed. Next time, I'll bring a good selection of sturdy lumber and tools to make better surfaces to push against.
The roof is going to be especially challenging, because half of the damaged area includes the sunroof tray, preventing me from pushing directly on the roof skin from below.
I think that some more work will get it much closer to its basic original shape, though. I don't think the roof skin and tray can be saved, but this gave me some hope that the body structure might get into the right shape to accept a donor skin and tray. The amount I did thus far was enough to make the driver's door close and latch, which wasn't possible at the beginning of the day. That's very encouraging. |
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Tha Driver Samba Member
Joined: November 01, 2004 Posts: 31
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Posted: Wed Mar 20, 2024 2:17 am Post subject: Re: Super Challenge: Saving my first car from a fallen tree |
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That CAN be straightened. Get a big rubber hammer & start from the edges of the dent & work toward the center & work it gently as possible - don't go beating the hell out of it. Rule of thumb is two or three "light" blows are better than one hard blow. Once you have the dent out, you'll need to hammer & dolly the creases smooth, probably with a friend holding the dolly under the roof. On the edges along the driprail & sunroof you may need to weld a plate to it & pull it up with a come-a-long from a big tree branch (or if you have strong rafters...).
HTH _________________ ~ Paul
aka "Tha Driver" |
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TDCTDI Samba Advocatus Diaboli
Joined: August 31, 2013 Posts: 12862 Location: North Carolina
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Posted: Wed Mar 20, 2024 3:00 am Post subject: Re: Super Challenge: Saving my first car from a fallen tree |
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The Bus crowd use the “football” method. Make a tray that attaches to the top of the ram & place a deflated football on it. Position the ram & football under the low spot, jack it in place, & then inflate the football.
Link
_________________ Everybody born before 1975 has a story, good, bad, or indifferent, about a VW.
GOFUNDYOURSELF, quit asking everyone to do it for you!
An air cooled VW will make you a hoarder.
Do something, anything, to your project every day, and you will eventually complete it. |
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Tha Driver Samba Member
Joined: November 01, 2004 Posts: 31
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Posted: Wed Mar 20, 2024 5:13 am Post subject: Re: Super Challenge: Saving my first car from a fallen tree |
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TDCTDI wrote: |
The Bus crowd use the “football” method. Make a tray that attaches to the top of the ram & place a deflated football on it. Position the ram & football under the low spot, jack it in place, & then inflate the football.
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No - just no. With damage like that you have to work it out from the edges of the dent. If you start in the center you'll stretch the metal.
OR... just cut out the roof like I did with Annie (see my photos). I had a custom made convertible roof that used snaps all the way around it. _________________ ~ Paul
aka "Tha Driver" |
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raydog Samba Member
Joined: February 09, 2006 Posts: 1164 Location: Cape Cod
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Posted: Wed Mar 20, 2024 5:26 am Post subject: Re: Super Challenge: Saving my first car from a fallen tree |
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Tha Driver wrote: |
TDCTDI wrote: |
The Bus crowd use the “football” method. Make a tray that attaches to the top of the ram & place a deflated football on it. Position the ram & football under the low spot, jack it in place, & then inflate the football.
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No - just no. With damage like that you have to work it out from the edges of the dent. If you start in the center you'll stretch the metal.
OR... just cut out the roof like I did with Annie (see my photos). I had a custom made convertible roof that used snaps all the way around it. |
Tha Driver is correct. You need to remove the damage in the opposite of how the dent happened. In other words, try to imagine the tree falling in slow motion. As the tree fell the dent started in the center of the roof, and then the weight of the came to rest on the rear window area and sunroof. You need to work the dent out in the opposite. Start with the window area first, move to the sunroof, last will be the roof itself. Doing this, will also decrease the dent in the center somewhat. Save the middle until last.
And try to find some better tools. A chunk of tree stump doesn't cut it. No pun intended. _________________ Come on, It's not rocket science. KISS |
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heimlich VWNOS.com
Joined: November 20, 2016 Posts: 6627 Location: Houston, Texas
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Posted: Wed Mar 20, 2024 6:25 am Post subject: Re: Super Challenge: Saving my first car from a fallen tree |
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You did a good job on that window opening. _________________ www.vwnos.com [email protected]
Classic Brands. Classic Quality.
Not all parts are made the same. NOS OE/OEM parts made mainly in West Germany, Early Germany, and Early Brazil are where VW produced the best quality parts and best fitting products.
5% Off your order with coupon code: 5%OFF
Restored Distributors Available (<--Click here) |
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TDCTDI Samba Advocatus Diaboli
Joined: August 31, 2013 Posts: 12862 Location: North Carolina
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Posted: Wed Mar 20, 2024 12:43 pm Post subject: Re: Super Challenge: Saving my first car from a fallen tree |
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raydog wrote: |
Tha Driver wrote: |
TDCTDI wrote: |
The Bus crowd use the “football” method. Make a tray that attaches to the top of the ram & place a deflated football on it. Position the ram & football under the low spot, jack it in place, & then inflate the football.
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No - just no. With damage like that you have to work it out from the edges of the dent. If you start in the center you'll stretch the metal.
OR... just cut out the roof like I did with Annie (see my photos). I had a custom made convertible roof that used snaps all the way around it. |
Tha Driver is correct. You need to remove the damage in the opposite of how the dent happened. In other words, try to imagine the tree falling in slow motion. As the tree fell the dent started in the center of the roof, and then the weight of the came to rest on the rear window area and sunroof. You need to work the dent out in the opposite. Start with the window area first, move to the sunroof, last will be the roof itself. Doing this, will also decrease the dent in the center somewhat. Save the middle until last.
And try to find some better tools. A chunk of tree stump doesn't cut it. No pun intended. |
The point being is that the ball (now air bag), is far less likely to cause upward dents being that it conforms to the surface & spreads the force over a wider area. _________________ Everybody born before 1975 has a story, good, bad, or indifferent, about a VW.
GOFUNDYOURSELF, quit asking everyone to do it for you!
An air cooled VW will make you a hoarder.
Do something, anything, to your project every day, and you will eventually complete it. |
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Blue Baron VW Aficionado
Joined: June 16, 2006 Posts: 24159 Location: Southeast USA
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Posted: Wed Mar 20, 2024 4:01 pm Post subject: Re: Super Challenge: Saving my first car from a fallen tree |
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My first reaction is, if the car is sentimental, how was it left to get into its present condition? It looks like it was not touched for decades.
The fact that it's a sunroof car is both a blessing and a curse. The double-wall sunroof tray added strength to the top, keeping it from getting further squashed, but also acts are an impediment to getting to the underside of the roof. Regardless, I love to see another car saved, especially one most people would not fix! Good luck! _________________ We are striving for perfection, to make our cars run forever, if possible.
Heinz Nordhoff |
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Dusty1 Samba Member
Joined: April 16, 2004 Posts: 1435
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Posted: Wed Mar 20, 2024 4:27 pm Post subject: Re: Super Challenge: Saving my first car from a fallen tree |
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TDCTDI wrote: |
Yeah…. That shell is probably twisted pretty badly.
I have a 71 super shell near Newburgh NY that you’re welcome to, but it will need heater channels. |
I met my last girlfriend at a VW swap meet. She was making the rounds with her girlfriend, a photo finisher at The Hartford Courant. They had big pictures of a Bug that looked like it had an elephant dropped on it. They were both cute so I said,
"Why not?"
and towed it north to my secret laboratory.
Where I fixed it PDQ. No big deal. A top clip is just a lot of welding. There are ways to fix it as good as new without welding a bead from here to Hartford.
The bad news is a regular body shop will charge you a schtupid amount of money. By all conventional measures that car is totaled.
Still, it's a trick I've done again and again. I might have one more in me.
Maybe two because I'm doing another ancient Bug that has the lower 18" rotted off.
SnowDaySyncro wrote: |
At this point, many reasonable people would consider this car a goner, but I intend to save it for a few reasons:
-It was my first car, purchased for $50 from a former neighbor in 1990, before I was old enough to legally drive. |
If you replace the body, how much of it is still that first car?
I'll fill in a few more details...
My first top clip came up from Canton, Connecticut. Pretty close to home, eh?
Tell you what...
Betcha I could show up with a magic marker and explain what needs to be done. And BTW, any top clip back to '67 will work. Your back window is larger than the '60s cars believe it or not and VW moved the trim a little in '71 or '72. It's subtle but something you would notice if you spliced a '68 top on your '71.
SnowDaySyncro wrote: |
The roof is, obviously very bad. While I am still planning to see how straight I can get the structure, I think that replacing the roof will be the best course of action. |
Unless you're the John Henry of bodywork, born with a hammer in your hand... hammering that will quickly demonstrate why most shops would consider it totaled.
Banging on that is like surfing. If the metal is stretched you'll get a wave. Hammering on the wave makes it move back and forth across the panel. Like I said, it's like surfing.
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SnowDaySyncro Samba Member
Joined: August 31, 2006 Posts: 92 Location: Hartford, CT USA
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Posted: Wed Mar 20, 2024 4:48 pm Post subject: Re: Super Challenge: Saving my first car from a fallen tree |
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Blue Baron wrote: |
My first reaction is, if the car is sentimental, how was it left to get into its present condition? It looks like it was not touched for decades.
The fact that it's a sunroof car is both a blessing and a curse. The double-wall sunroof tray added strength to the top, keeping it from getting further squashed, but also acts are an impediment to getting to the underside of the roof. Regardless, I love to see another car saved, especially one most people would not fix! Good luck! |
It was a $50 northeastern car in 1990, repaired and maintained with the skills and budget of a teenager, so it was already rough 34 years ago.
As will happen, life events take precedent and time passes. I was an only child, so late/end-of-life care for my parents and tending to their house and belongings posthumously were among the things that fell squarely on my shoulders and rightfully took precedent over the car for many years.
I'm grateful that my friend Bill was able to keep it safely indoors at his farm for the intervening years, but rural areas have lots of critters, which really laid the interior to waste.
I both understand and excitedly embrace how impractical an idea it is to resurrect a car in this condition |
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Dusty1 Samba Member
Joined: April 16, 2004 Posts: 1435
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Posted: Wed Mar 20, 2024 5:01 pm Post subject: Re: Super Challenge: Saving my first car from a fallen tree |
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Here's something I've been looking at on Marketplace. It'd described as a '73 but look at the dash. Then look at the front quarters. Near as I can tell it's a '71- '72.
https://www.facebook.com/marketplace/item/16360952...0dc35e5592
Make a cool motorcycle trailer if nothing else.
If you're towing a BMW I suggest cutting up a BMW, perhaps a rotted 2002.
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SnowDaySyncro Samba Member
Joined: August 31, 2006 Posts: 92 Location: Hartford, CT USA
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Posted: Wed Mar 20, 2024 5:49 pm Post subject: Re: Super Challenge: Saving my first car from a fallen tree |
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Dusty1 wrote: |
If you replace the body, how much of it is still that first car?
I'll fill in a few more details...
My first top clip came up from Canton, Connecticut. Pretty close to home, eh?
Tell you what...
Betcha I could show up with a magic marker and explain what needs to be done. And BTW, any top clip back to '67 will work. Your back window is larger than the '60s cars believe it or not and VW moved the trim a little in '71 or '72. It's subtle but something you would notice if you spliced a '68 top on your '71.
SnowDaySyncro wrote: |
The roof is, obviously very bad. While I am still planning to see how straight I can get the structure, I think that replacing the roof will be the best course of action. |
Unless you're the John Henry of bodywork, born with a hammer in your hand... hammering that will quickly demonstrate why most shops would consider it totaled.
Banging on that is like surfing. If the metal is stretched you'll get a wave. Hammering on the wave makes it move back and forth across the panel. Like I said, it's like surfing.
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The Ship of Theseus (Bug of Theseus?) paradox is on my mind as I work my way through this for sure.
The '71 roof is technically a one-year-only roof, as it's the last year of the '65-'71 rear window and the first year that the rear window is flanked by added ventilation. In the very plausible scenario that I end up with a roof clip from a non- '71 donor, I'll salvage the inner vent structures from this one and graft them in place. Related, the plastic pieces that cover the vents are also a one-year-only part (that is prone to disintegration) and I have thus far only found one source for reproductions in Europe, which will run something close to $200 per pair.
My goal with the roof is a substructure that an undamaged replacement roof skin will fit properly, and my experience during the last tinkering session has me cautiously optimistic. I have a hammer and dolly set that enabled me to successfully shrink a much smaller area on my girlfriend's damaged Honda well enough last year to sail through a lease return inspection with flying colors without any body filler (just some high build primer and glazing putty before paint). I also got to play around with a mini forge and raising bowls from copper and steel sheet in a sculpture studio when I worked in the art department of a college several years back. I'm still a novice of course, but excited to build on that.
I'm leaning towards cutting the donor partway up the A-pillars and taking the skin and structure all the way back, including the vents below the rear window, so that the inner sides of the front and rear window pinch welds will remain with the car to aid panel alignment and the pinch welds get plug welded back together. A friend did a version of that several times, with TIG(? It was decades ago, I don't recall) welds down the gutter valleys in between.
I'm certainly willing to learn about other approaches to the task, so if your travels put you in the Hartford area sometime, I'd be happy to get another set of eyes on it. |
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Dusty1 Samba Member
Joined: April 16, 2004 Posts: 1435
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Posted: Thu Mar 21, 2024 3:17 am Post subject: Re: Super Challenge: Saving my first car from a fallen tree |
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Rome wrote: |
SnowDaySyncro wrote: |
Nice!
Definitely interested |
It's difficult to separate the emotional attachment with the real time & effort to attempt repairs, vs a different and unhit body such as what TDC is offering. |
It's easy to use up your lifetime allotment of passion and still end up with an unfinished project. No one else has your emotional attachment to your little monster so...
That's how we get unfinished projects. Don't ask me how I know!
SnowDaySyncro wrote: |
The '71 roof is technically a one-year-only roof, as it's the last year of the '65-'71 rear window and the first year that the rear window is flanked by added ventilation. In the very plausible scenario that I end up with a roof clip from a non- '71 donor, I'll salvage the inner vent structures from this one and graft them in place. Related, the plastic pieces that cover the vents are also a one-year-only part (that is prone to disintegration) and I have thus far only found one source for reproductions in Europe, which will run something close to $200 per pair. |
I was a little hazy on exactly what year gets the not immediately noticeable bigger window. For some reason it's easier for me to keep track of every detail change up to 1970 but not so much '72 and up. I guess they added vents and more vents after 1970. I like the ventless look.
By the time you cut away your dented roof and your rusty channels you have a front clip and a rear clip sitting on your garage floor ready to become your teardrop camper / motorcycle trailer.
Pragmatically a body replacement is the expedient way to get rid of your dents and rust. In the time it takes to do a roof clip you can have a donor body all block sanded and ready for paint. Once it's prepped painting it is the easy part.
You could spend weeks thrashing in a poorly lit and dusty garage. Or you could take a trip out to S.F. and have a straight and solid in the right places donor / surrogate car follow you home.
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=2652008
Or you could pick up one of the several donor bodies available closer to home.
Thinking out loud,
I've always subscribed to smoothing out my Bugs as my basic custom treatment. I use my (long gone) '51 and my Euro '53 Standard as guides. I've eliminated the cowl vents on '70s Supers and convertibles. I like the seamless (and leak- less! ) look of non- sunroof cars. I sometimes eliminate the "vents" near the quarter windows if they caused the dreaded upper quarter panel rot.
I often take the extra time to convert the dash to '66- '67. Same reason I eliminate the cowl vent. I've spent enough time drivin' up and down I-91 with a 60mph wind blowin' in my face. If I want wind in my face I might as well ride my motorcycle(s).
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Nogindrops Samba Member
Joined: April 26, 2020 Posts: 10 Location: uk
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Posted: Fri Apr 12, 2024 9:43 am Post subject: Re: Super Challenge: Saving my first car from a fallen tree |
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Dealing with a fallen tree can be a massive headache, but thankfully, it’s not completely unmanageable if you have the right tools. From my own experience as a truck driver, having the appropriate gear for unexpected situations like this can make a big difference. I always keep a mini chainsaw in my truck to clear trees or large branches that fall across the road—this could be a good option for you too.
For your car situation, assessing the damage and carefully removing the tree without causing further harm to the vehicle is key. A mini chainsaw is handy due to its size and ease of use, making it perfect for cutting through the tree in more manageable sections. It's affordable and really easy to carry around, which is why I never leave without mine. |
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