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New Delrin Shift Rod Bushing
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EVfun
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 19, 2023 3:43 pm    Post subject: Re: New Delrin Shift Rod Bushing Reply with quote

chrisflstf wrote:
Ok, Got one from Washburns. I tried a Bug shift rod I had and it will work, but the rod must be 22 mm or .866” the whole length and round. If its over anywhere by more than a couple thou, you’ll need to fit for clearance. The Bug rod I have is over by .005” right at the end where the end is welded on and ground down. You wont get it over that without addressing it first. The rod needs to be round and clean the whole length too. Polished in the bushing area would be good

In the bug, you need to put it in with the flange facing front and the slot straight up, There are 2 notches on the side machined in to clear the side of the bracket web. If not, the bushing wont click into place. You can rotate it in the bracket if needed. It has a nice tight fit in the bracket, wont rattle.. Removing it in a Bug would be an issue, without some 90 degree pliers to squeeze it .

Its not gonna fit in a bus, as is, as the bushing has to be on the bracket first, but you could grind off the nubs to slip it on all the way and drill a couple 1/16 holes on the side for safety wire. I may do that on mine.

It may not for everybody because of too many rod variables, but with the proper clearance and lube, it would be good. I would have made the ID of the bushing about .005” or so larger to give a little more leeway. That’s where the original bushing, being flexible, allows for more variances

Would strongly recommend also fitting the bushing on your rod outside the car first to test fit. Otherwise you’ll never push it in place thru the limited access of the shifter hole

Getting back to this, the original subject of this thread, I’d like to learn a little more about the fit. Not all Bug shift rods are perfectly strait, older ones had a smooth little dip in the middle around the ebrake area. What kind of fit tolerance does this shift bushing give? I think it fixes the main reason the stock style bushings fail, rotating on the hanger, which provides little bearing area. Perhaps if the bushing was shortened it would fit over a little curve? It appears to have plenty of material behind the lock-in tabs to cut the length down a bit.

I’m considering this, or perhaps the 2 part bushing, because I’ve got the buggy body off this winter. That makes this a pretty easy time to do it, especially on a Berry Mini-T. Unknown “stock” replacement bushing without retaining ring is still working (shifts fine) but how long? The shifter is long and angled back, it would suck to try and work under the dash with the body installed. I can’t find one of these at a reasonable price.
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Last edited by EVfun on Tue Dec 19, 2023 5:59 pm; edited 1 time in total
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DesertSasquatchXploration
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 19, 2023 5:34 pm    Post subject: Re: New Delrin Shift Rod Bushing Reply with quote

DesertSasquatchXploration wrote:
The only reason aftermarket uses Delrin its easy to machine. It has horrible wear property's you can scratch it with your fingernail! Delrin can be set up and made in huge numbers on a CNC lathe with a low paid felon pushing the button.


UHMW is the best you can get but its tough to machine accurately. It Really needs to be Molded. Teflon is good but Virgin Teflon is Big $$$$$ so valuable in fact its remolded in to second hand blends. I've made tons of bushings for custom machines out of UHMW lasts a lifetime it takes an experienced Machinist its more time consuming needs to be made on a Conventional lathe. UHMW changes size with temps and machines different through the day . Its like trying to catch a snake once you have it figured out it changes direction. For our VWs just buy the molded polypropylene bushing use Synthetic wheel bearing grease replace when needed its a cheap wear item.


Ray already been thru this days ago so now you agree UHMW is a good choice Good grief man seriously what the he!! Laughing
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 19, 2023 8:45 pm    Post subject: Re: New Delrin Shift Rod Bushing Reply with quote

Hey, Ray;
Thanks for the in-depth reply. Helps a lot.
Marcus...
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 19, 2023 10:15 pm    Post subject: Re: New Delrin Shift Rod Bushing Reply with quote

DesertSasquatchXploration wrote:
DesertSasquatchXploration wrote:
The only reason aftermarket uses Delrin its easy to machine. It has horrible wear property's you can scratch it with your fingernail! Delrin can be set up and made in huge numbers on a CNC lathe with a low paid felon pushing the button.


UHMW is the best you can get but its tough to machine accurately. It Really needs to be Molded. Teflon is good but Virgin Teflon is Big $$$$$ so valuable in fact its remolded in to second hand blends. I've made tons of bushings for custom machines out of UHMW lasts a lifetime it takes an experienced Machinist its more time consuming needs to be made on a Conventional lathe. UHMW changes size with temps and machines different through the day . Its like trying to catch a snake once you have it figured out it changes direction. For our VWs just buy the molded polypropylene bushing use Synthetic wheel bearing grease replace when needed its a cheap wear item.


Ray already been thru this days ago so now you agree UHMW is a good choice Good grief man seriously what the he!! Laughing



Where did I say it wasn't a good material. But it also has its own issues. As I also noted....it needs to be pressure molded....not machined. I also did not state its a good choice for a machined part.

Yes...you are correct that UHMW is a bitch to machine. If you turn out 5 parts they will all probably be a little different. Where is the efficiency in that? Where is the uniformity?

This thread is about a Delrin bushing which is actually plenty good enough. Without problems? Not at all. Never said it was without problems. But its a good material for this bushing .....again...for about the 5th time....if you have the right version of it.

There have been UHMW bushings made out there. However its been many years since I have seen one.

Why would we think that is?.....because its a pain in the ass to EASILY machine accurately (as you note)...and it must be pressure molded to make even remotely uniform parts in quantity....and pressure molding has far more inaccuracies than injection molding.....meaning....the parts you make will have about as much variation as they would trying to machine large quantities of them.

Do yourself some quick R&D...Google part # 111 701 259A....hit images. You will see a vast range of molded parts for a very common type 1, 3 and 4 shifter bushing....all made from common whitish translucent looking variants of polyethylene and polypropylene.....most of which are far too soft and far too low in abrasion resistance than they should be.

Thats why some people are looking at other materials that can be made in more precise ways.

Ray
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 20, 2023 11:16 am    Post subject: Re: New Delrin Shift Rod Bushing Reply with quote

Here are 2 pics of the bushing. The one on the right I had in a bag labeled Nos. It does not have a vw symbol on it, but does have the part number. Also has a manufacturer stamp, which is 6 diamond 6. Dont know what that means. Its about 20 years old I think

The left is the currently available one.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 20, 2023 12:13 pm    Post subject: Re: New Delrin Shift Rod Bushing Reply with quote

raygreenwood wrote:
DesertSasquatchXploration wrote:
DesertSasquatchXploration wrote:
The only reason aftermarket uses Delrin its easy to machine. It has horrible wear property's you can scratch it with your fingernail! Delrin can be set up and made in huge numbers on a CNC lathe with a low paid felon pushing the button.


UHMW is the best you can get but its tough to machine accurately. It Really needs to be Molded. Teflon is good but Virgin Teflon is Big $$$$$ so valuable in fact its remolded in to second hand blends. I've made tons of bushings for custom machines out of UHMW lasts a lifetime it takes an experienced Machinist its more time consuming needs to be made on a Conventional lathe. UHMW changes size with temps and machines different through the day . Its like trying to catch a snake once you have it figured out it changes direction. For our VWs just buy the molded polypropylene bushing use Synthetic wheel bearing grease replace when needed its a cheap wear item.


Ray already been thru this days ago so now you agree UHMW is a good choice Good grief man seriously what the he!! Laughing



Where did I say it wasn't a good material. But it also has its own issues. As I also noted....it needs to be pressure molded....not machined. I also did not state its a good choice for a machined part.

Yes...you are correct that UHMW is a bitch to machine. If you turn out 5 parts they will all probably be a little different. Where is the efficiency in that? Where is the uniformity?

This thread is about a Delrin bushing which is actually plenty good enough. Without problems? Not at all. Never said it was without problems. But its a good material for this bushing .....again...for about the 5th time....if you have the right version of it.

There have been UHMW bushings made out there. However its been many years since I have seen one.

Why would we think that is?.....because its a pain in the ass to EASILY machine accurately (as you note)...and it must be pressure molded to make even remotely uniform parts in quantity....and pressure molding has far more inaccuracies than injection molding.....meaning....the parts you make will have about as much variation as they would trying to machine large quantities of them.

Do yourself some quick R&D...Google part # 111 701 259A....hit images. You will see a vast range of molded parts for a very common type 1, 3 and 4 shifter bushing....all made from common whitish translucent looking variants of polyethylene and polypropylene.....most of which are far too soft and far too low in abrasion resistance than they should be.

Thats why some people are looking at other materials that can be made in more precise ways.

Ray


Appreciate your comments. I used to be pretty hard on you for your essays, but they are completely full of relevant points and great information. Thank you
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 20, 2023 4:23 pm    Post subject: Re: New Delrin Shift Rod Bushing Reply with quote

chrisflstf wrote:
Here are 2 pics of the bushing.
They really do look nearly identical. I know, I know, I know, different (version of the) material.
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 20, 2023 5:26 pm    Post subject: Re: New Delrin Shift Rod Bushing Reply with quote

Busstom wrote:
chrisflstf wrote:
Here are 2 pics of the bushing.
They really do look nearly identical. I know, I know, I know, different (version of the) material.


really? I see one with real crisp lines and an obvious copy thats mostly the same shape
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 20, 2023 6:11 pm    Post subject: Re: New Delrin Shift Rod Bushing Reply with quote

Erik G wrote:
Busstom wrote:
chrisflstf wrote:
Here are 2 pics of the bushing.
They really do look nearly identical. I know, I know, I know, different (version of the) material.


really? I see one with real crisp lines and an obvious copy thats mostly the same shape


Yes, to my eye they are very different. Either "could" work just fine. The one on the right is one from who knows what OEM. Much crisper, sharper lines.

Neither is nylon. Neither is UHMW.

They could be polypropylene one on left more possibly but it looks to be very soft from the chipping/stringing around the edges in the notch.

The one on the right could be either polypropylene or polyethylene. Both will yellow slightly with age.

Just thinking about this whole thing....and realizing that there are some really good plastic alloys now that mold pretty well that would be excellent for this bushing. I will have to look at a part in my storage unit, but the blend they use for the coolant expansion tank in modern Golfs...like mk 5 and onward....is a blend of something like Nylon and polypropylene....touch, slick, molds accurately, high temp, self lubricating...cheap.

Ray
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 21, 2023 10:27 am    Post subject: Re: New Delrin Shift Rod Bushing Reply with quote

Erik G wrote:
Busstom wrote:
chrisflstf wrote:
Here are 2 pics of the bushing.
They really do look nearly identical. I know, I know, I know, different (version of the) material.


really? I see one with real crisp lines and an obvious copy thats mostly the same shape


That's why I said "nearly." I doubt the difference in "crisp lines" have any influence on its performance, remember, the claimed issue is reliability/longevity.
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 21, 2023 11:01 am    Post subject: Re: New Delrin Shift Rod Bushing Reply with quote

Busstom wrote:
Erik G wrote:
Busstom wrote:
chrisflstf wrote:
Here are 2 pics of the bushing.
They really do look nearly identical. I know, I know, I know, different (version of the) material.


really? I see one with real crisp lines and an obvious copy thats mostly the same shape


That's why I said "nearly." I doubt the difference in "crisp lines" have any influence on its performance, remember, the claimed issue is reliability/longevity.


I guess that's an opinion. It looks like wadded up garbage and you can tell it's inferior. Well, I can. And yes sloppy fit can cause issues down the road in my opinion
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 21, 2023 12:03 pm    Post subject: Re: New Delrin Shift Rod Bushing Reply with quote

Busstom wrote:
Erik G wrote:
Busstom wrote:
chrisflstf wrote:
Here are 2 pics of the bushing.
They really do look nearly identical. I know, I know, I know, different (version of the) material.


really? I see one with real crisp lines and an obvious copy thats mostly the same shape


That's why I said "nearly." I doubt the difference in "crisp lines" have any influence on its performance, remember, the claimed issue is reliability/longevity.


Yes....but what I am getting at is that the lack of crisp lines and stringiness in the plastic along the edges is common with much softer polyethylenes and those do not have longevity.

This is because the low density polyethylenes tend to kind of flow and flex. Finding bushings made with those types of materials are the very reason I started giving the hairy eye to the bushing choices quite a long time back.

On the other hand....we can only tell so much from pictures online. If I held one in my hand and flexed it I could tell you right away what it was and how it would probably last.

On yet another hand....even low density polyethylene is slick and pretty chemical proof. Let's say it lasts 10k miles.

About 3 years for the average part time driver of these cars? If it's not too hard to change...would you care if you had to replace one every three years at $6?

If its a PITA to change and you drive a lot more....would you rather try something known to be better?

The other thing to me is this. The low density shifter bushing parts fail when they fail. Not at specific mileage...and rarely give warning when they are going out.

To me it would suck being out 300-500 miles from home when that happens. I would rather shop around for something that I am sure is better material.

But....with the pictures of those last two bushings, to know anything concrete I would have to order both and inspect them.

Would I send them back if I thought they sucked? Laughing Knowing the way I am, I would install the better one and keep looking for something better. Ray
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 21, 2023 6:46 pm    Post subject: Re: New Delrin Shift Rod Bushing Reply with quote

A bare metal shift rod in Delrin lubed with WD-40 is slicker than snot. Gene Berg advocated for drilling a small hole in the frame tunnel to allow for a squirt of oil on the bushing.
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 25, 2023 10:18 pm    Post subject: Re: New Delrin Shift Rod Bushing Reply with quote

I’ve read through this thread and thought I would chime in to clear some things up. I see several people are curious of the specs on the Delrin, so I have posted those on the product description store page and will add them at the end of this post. As far as the bushing goes I’ve been testing and redesigning this product for over a year until I felt it was ready for release. I would never release a product without testing and put a lot of time and heart into our small, but growing product line. I have many individuals that daily, and put a ton of miles on their cars running these bushings with nothing but really positive feedback. These bushings do run a bit tight due to the machining tolerances, but wear in nicely and leave you with a firm shifting experience. If you order a bushing and are unhappy for any reason, I will refund your money. I’m rarely on the samba, but feel free to email me at [email protected], text or call me. My number is easy to find. If you ordered a bushing and are having a positive experience, or have feedback I would love to hear about that as well.

These bushings will also be available in UHMW soon for no extra charge, just choose them on the drop down box when ordering.

Delrin Bushing Specs: Made from Virgin Delrin Homopolymer, its Tensile Strength is 11,000 Psi, the Compressive Modulus is 450,000 Psi CNC milled.


Thank you
-Brian Washburn


Last edited by WashburnsMetal on Tue Jan 02, 2024 10:02 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 26, 2023 8:50 pm    Post subject: Re: New Delrin Shift Rod Bushing Reply with quote

WashburnsMetal wrote:
I’ve read through this thread and thought I would chime in to clear some things up. I see several people are curious of the specs on the Delrin, so I have posted those on the product description store page and will add them at the end of this post. As far as the bushing goes I’ve been testing and redesigning this product for over a year until I felt it was ready for release. I would never release a product without testing and put a lot of time and heart into our small, but growing product line. I have many individuals that daily, and put a ton of miles on their cars running these bushings with nothing but really positive feedback. These bushings do run a bit tight due to the machining tolerances, but wear in nicely and leave you with a firm shifting experience. If you order a bushing and are unhappy for any reason, I will refund your money. I’m rarely on the samba, but feel free to email me at [email protected], text or call me. My number is easy to find. If you ordered a bushing and are having a positive experience, or have feedback I would love to hear about that as well.

Bushing Specs: Made from Virgin Delrin Homopolymer, its Tensile Strength is 11,000 Psi, the Compressive Modulus is 450,000 Psi CNC milled.


Thanks,
Brian Washburn


Thank you for taking the time to write a very tactful and detailed response. That helps give a better idea of what it is.
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 27, 2023 8:47 am    Post subject: Re: New Delrin Shift Rod Bushing Reply with quote

Cusser wrote:
jpaull wrote:
Cusser wrote:
I've had my 1970 since 1972, and my 1971 Super since 1976. I've replaced the shift bushing exactly ONCE in each, so not sure one really needs a longer-lasting shift bushing.

About 270K on my 1970, and 145K on my 1971.


Can you send a link to a bushing that is the same as the one that lasted you so long? Because all thats on the market now is the empi/cip1 style that is not the same material as what lasted you so many years.

My 1970 had the factory shift bushing in it from 1970 until 2017 (I've owned it since 1972) so I know first-hand it had only the factory shift bushing at about 268K miles. I installed the new shift bushing then JBugs #111701259A and clip #111701263.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Why do I not understand why one needs a super long lasting shift bushing for these? I understand that my VWs are drivers and not racers, but if a typical plastic bushing lasts decades, what's the big whiz ????
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 27, 2023 11:49 am    Post subject: Re: New Delrin Shift Rod Bushing Reply with quote

Cusser wrote:
Cusser wrote:
jpaull wrote:
Cusser wrote:
I've had my 1970 since 1972, and my 1971 Super since 1976. I've replaced the shift bushing exactly ONCE in each, so not sure one really needs a longer-lasting shift bushing.

About 270K on my 1970, and 145K on my 1971.


Can you send a link to a bushing that is the same as the one that lasted you so long? Because all thats on the market now is the empi/cip1 style that is not the same material as what lasted you so many years.

My 1970 had the factory shift bushing in it from 1970 until 2017 (I've owned it since 1972) so I know first-hand it had only the factory shift bushing at about 268K miles. I installed the new shift bushing then JBugs #111701259A and clip #111701263.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Why do I not understand why one needs a super long lasting shift bushing for these? I understand that my VWs are drivers and not racers, but if a typical plastic bushing lasts decades, what's the big whiz ????


Because it's been my experience....and many others....that the bushings we have been getting for the past couple of decades....do not last decades. If you drive on a regular basis in very hot or cold climates, depending on the bushing you might only get a couple years out of them regardless of actual mileage.

And, you may not have seen the issue if your bushings have been lasting "decades". This means you bought yours DECADES ago. We were not seeing crappy bushing material DECADES ago.

There are still excellent bushings out there. The problem is that there are also even more bushings that are made out of the wrong material for the simple purpose this bushing serves.

Any bushing for this location that is made of LDPE or MDPE or low grade PP....is made of the wrong material and will wear out quick on a daily driver. If you only drive 2-3k a year it may last quite a long time.

Ray
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 27, 2023 2:14 pm    Post subject: Re: New Delrin Shift Rod Bushing Reply with quote

Got it !!!
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 10, 2024 3:11 pm    Post subject: Re: New Delrin Shift Rod Bushing Reply with quote

Just pulled the shift rod from my 67 for the 1st time and the only thing left on the rod was the metal ring….no signs of the original bushing. Here is a picture of the 2 bushings I have in my parts bin.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


One is white and the other is a pale yellow. I believe the white one was purchased from a vendor a couple years ago at one of local shows. Not sure when/where l got the yellow one. Which is the better one?
My vw will probably not see more than 500 miles/yrs if that makes a difference.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 10, 2024 4:20 pm    Post subject: Re: New Delrin Shift Rod Bushing Reply with quote

raygreenwood wrote:
Cusser wrote:
Cusser wrote:
jpaull wrote:
Cusser wrote:
I've had my 1970 since 1972, and my 1971 Super since 1976. I've replaced the shift bushing exactly ONCE in each, so not sure one really needs a longer-lasting shift bushing.

About 270K on my 1970, and 145K on my 1971.


Can you send a link to a bushing that is the same as the one that lasted you so long? Because all thats on the market now is the empi/cip1 style that is not the same material as what lasted you so many years.

My 1970 had the factory shift bushing in it from 1970 until 2017 (I've owned it since 1972) so I know first-hand it had only the factory shift bushing at about 268K miles. I installed the new shift bushing then JBugs #111701259A and clip #111701263.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Why do I not understand why one needs a super long lasting shift bushing for these? I understand that my VWs are drivers and not racers, but if a typical plastic bushing lasts decades, what's the big whiz ????


Because it's been my experience....and many others....that the bushings we have been getting for the past couple of decades....do not last decades. If you drive on a regular basis in very hot or cold climates, depending on the bushing you might only get a couple years out of them regardless of actual mileage.

And, you may not have seen the issue if your bushings have been lasting "decades". This means you bought yours DECADES ago. We were not seeing crappy bushing material DECADES ago.

There are still excellent bushings out there. The problem is that there are also even more bushings that are made out of the wrong material for the simple purpose this bushing serves.

Any bushing for this location that is made of LDPE or MDPE or low grade PP....is made of the wrong material and will wear out quick on a daily driver. If you only drive 2-3k a year it may last quite a long time.

Ray

With your material knowledge could you explain why VW decided to add that spring ring to the plastic shift rod bushing installation?

Bugs up through '59 had a rolled metal hanger in place of a separate bushing and there was a spot welded leaf spring that pushed down on the shift rod to prevent rattling.

In '60 they switched to a plastic bushing without that retaining ring. My first car was a '60, and made that way, so when I replaced the shift rod bushing (about '85) I installed the new one without that ring. It worked fine but I only had the car another 2 years.

In my beach buggy I last replaced the shift rod bushing with a stock style bushing around '93. I installed it without the spring ring that holds it to the shift rod. It has been shifting fine since, though I must say I have not even looked at it for around 10 years.

It seems to me the installation of that spring ring insures that when moving the shifter side to side both the rod and bushing move together in the shift hanger. Bushing to hanger is a pretty small bearing area for a plastic bushing to run against metal. When shifting forward/backward the shift bushing will move on the shift rod (much more bearing area) with or without the spring ring. Most worn out shift rod bushings seem to be cut in two where they fit into the hanger.
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