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kevw411
Samba Member
Joined: December 30, 2001
Posts: 7
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 Posted: Wed Oct 25, 2023 8:05 pm Post subject: Door hinges 1974 412 wagon |
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The door hinge pins are worn which are causing the doors, especially the drivers to sag. Is there a way to drive these pins out and replace them? It seems that the upper hinge on the drivers door is the worst. It looks that there was once 2 thin washers or bushings where the hinge pivots but one has worn away causing play. I presently have the doors removed from the car. Thanks
Kevin |
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raygreenwood
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Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21521
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Thu Oct 26, 2023 6:57 am Post subject: Re: Door hinges 1974 412 wagon |
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| kevw411 wrote: |
The door hinge pins are worn which are causing the doors, especially the drivers to sag. Is there a way to drive these pins out and replace them? It seems that the upper hinge on the drivers door is the worst. It looks that there was once 2 thin washers or bushings where the hinge pivots but one has worn away causing play. I presently have the doors removed from the car. Thanks
Kevin |
Greetings!
What year and model is this? Your sig line says 411 so probably just what year. And what country are you in?
Some of the early Euro models had some oddities which is why we ask.
So....in all of my many years owning and driving 411 and 412 I have never been able to drive a hinge pin out. While the hinge plates are steel, the pins appear to be something quite a bit more brittle and they can shatter/crack when you try to tap them out.
Once you get the door off by removing the two allen wrench recessed screws...then getting something into that area to work like a pin pusher is not easy.
Then again in the past when working on these it has been my daily driver and I did not have days with the door off to get creative. The problem obviously is rust.
If your door is off, I would rig up some wet rags to shield the weather strip and paint and try some heat. Maybe about 500° F not more. Then use the classic mixture of t0% acetone and 50% ATF. Soak it, tap on it a lot and let it cool down. Repeat a couple of tines and then try a flat punch.
When all else fails I use a Dremel and cut off wheel to slice on the bottom end without damaging the part attached to the door. Then you can tap the top part out.
Late model type 3 hinges or one from a wreck can be used. Ray |
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kevw411
Samba Member
Joined: December 30, 2001
Posts: 7
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| Posted: Thu Oct 26, 2023 7:54 am Post subject: Re: Door hinges 1974 412 wagon |
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Thanks Ray,
The car is a 1974 412 wagon. I am from Alberta Canada. I have the paint and weather striping presently removed from the door so heating it up wont be a issue. Would you drive the pin downward through the hole that is covered by the plastic cap or from the bottom of the hinge? It will be difficult to drive out the top pin from the top due to the difficulty of getting a punch in from the curvature of the door. It seems that the door on the later type 4 wagons seem to be the worst for hinge wear as they are larger then the four door sedan ones and they have that side impact beam inside to add to the weight. |
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raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21521
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Thu Oct 26, 2023 3:27 pm Post subject: Re: Door hinges 1974 412 wagon |
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| kevw411 wrote: |
Thanks Ray,
The car is a 1974 412 wagon. I am from Alberta Canada. I have the paint and weather striping presently removed from the door so heating it up wont be a issue. Would you drive the pin downward through the hole that is covered by the plastic cap or from the bottom of the hinge? It will be difficult to drive out the top pin from the top due to the difficulty of getting a punch in from the curvature of the door. It seems that the door on the later type 4 wagons seem to be the worst for hinge wear as they are larger then the four door sedan ones and they have that side impact beam inside to add to the weight. |
So, as I noted, the type 3 and 4 hinges are similar enough that if you screw up the hinge plate that attaches to the forward side...you can use one from a late type 3...with a little tweaking. I had to do that once or twice over the eons and the difference is that the plate with the two allen screw holes (phillips on earlier models) is slightly thinner on the type 3 so to make the door fit the same I had to make a thin shim plate to go between the hinge plate and the area forward where it bolts up.
The point of all of that is while type 3 is similar to type 4 ....they are not exactly the same.
The type 4 hinge pin part # is 411 831 421. The type 3 hinge pin part # is 311 831 421 D (and several other letter code mods).
But what is the same is how they are made and how they work. Virtually all of the air cooled hinge pins work the same. The top area under the plastic cap is knurled...so you knock it upward from the other end.
They also all seem to have a couple of helical grooves in them that are good to exploit to get lubricant/penetrating oil into.
Here is a whole page of pins on CIP-1. You can see that other than length and probably diameter, they all "work" the same. The real gripping is done on the knurled end. If you can knock it enough to get that knurled section clear...they should come right out. And many of these come in oversized versions as you can read...because a lot of times you have to drill them out or at least redrill to clean up a buggered hole.
https://www2.cip1.com/door-hinges-pins/
As I noted, I have never successfully removed one myself but mine were really rusted. But I have watched a couple of VW mechanics when I was in highschool and college remove hinge pins successfully. I also remember a couple of methods that I have seen work.
1. as noted, some heat cycling and copiuse penetrating oil to get things ready to go.
I saw one stubborn one where the guy used a right angle drill head and centering punch. He put a hole about 3/8 deep X 1/8" diameter or so...in the inner end. He then hammered in an allen key and proceeded to tap and heat and twist until it moved.
2. I saw that guys assistant about a year later...remove one by the usual heat and penetrating oil...and then took an air hammer or air chisel tool with a slightly undersized rod tool that was bent about 10-15*...to simply drive it out from the inside. That one was quick.
I have heard of others who have a thin enough drill or one that is long enough...just drilling the pins out and finding an oversized pin from another type of air cooled VW that can be put back in.
This thread is type 3 but should also help
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=545007
Also tools like this are the correct part if they fit
https://www.eastwood.com/door-hinge-pin-puller.htm...e&wv=4
Check this one out too
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=601346
Let us know how it goes! Ray |
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kevw411
Samba Member
Joined: December 30, 2001
Posts: 7
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| Posted: Thu Oct 26, 2023 7:16 pm Post subject: Re: Door hinges 1974 412 wagon |
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Let hinges soak overnight with Kano Koil and heated up with propane torch. Tapped with hammer and punch from top down while heating and pins came out from the bottom easier than I thought. Pins do have about a couple thou of an inch of wear where they pivot ( enough to catch your fingernail). Wondering if I can get a machine shop to make new pins if new ones are not available. Wondering how the oil from the under the plastic cap gets to the moving part of the hinge as these pins don't have the helical grooves that I recall seeing on pins from a beetle.
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raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21521
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Thu Oct 26, 2023 9:58 pm Post subject: Re: Door hinges 1974 412 wagon |
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Looks like you did well!
Just for posterity...can you measure length and diameter in an unworn spot? Its possible that we could just use or modify another pin from another car if we know those numbers!
Thanks!
Ray |
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kevw411
Samba Member
Joined: December 30, 2001
Posts: 7
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| Posted: Fri Oct 27, 2023 3:21 pm Post subject: Re: Door hinges 1974 412 wagon |
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Measurements in inches
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raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21521
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Fri Oct 27, 2023 4:07 pm Post subject: Re: Door hinges 1974 412 wagon |
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Thanks for the measurements!
One more measurement favor for posterity if you can.
If your doors are off.....and if the inner panel of one happens to be removed.... can you shine a light down in the door and see how the center portion of the door hinge is attached inside of the door?
It's one of the few parts I have no memory of ever inspecting. I assume its welded on. But if somehow it's bolted on......that opens the horizon for several things!
Ray |
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kevw411
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Joined: December 30, 2001
Posts: 7
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| Posted: Fri Oct 27, 2023 5:42 pm Post subject: Re: Door hinges 1974 412 wagon |
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I had a look in behind before removing the pins and there is a cover or inner structure obstructing the hinge. Assuming it is spot welded integrally with the door structure. I will try to get some photos.
Kevin |
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kevw411
Samba Member
Joined: December 30, 2001
Posts: 7
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| Posted: Sat Oct 28, 2023 12:10 pm Post subject: Re: Door hinges 1974 412 wagon |
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Took some photos of the inner door area where the hinges are located. Not much to see as the hinges are obstructed by the inner door structure. Assuming this is here to support the federally mandated side impact door beam. As this car is a 1974 makes me wonder if earlier cars on non US spec have this. The black coating is from when the car was Ziebarted when new.
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