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Lars S Samba Member
Joined: October 04, 2007 Posts: 786 Location: Sweden
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Posted: Wed Oct 04, 2023 10:06 pm Post subject: Early 411 front differences |
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This may have been discussed before but I just discovered on an early 411 (produced about Feb 1969) that, on both sides, the front seems to lack the reinforcement parts which the later 411 and 412 has.
I knew there were a lot of modifications done after the 1st year but this was unknown to me.
Top in each pic is a '70 411 and bottom is the '69.
/Lars S
_________________ Porsche 914 -72, Bahia Red daily driver
VW411 2-d -70, White, sold
VW412 4-d, -73, Gold Metallic, daily driver
Suzuki T500, -69, Candy Gold, sold
Suzuki K50, -77, Black, daily driver
BMW R69S -69, White, sold
Husqvarna 118cc, -47, Black, Sold |
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KTPhil Samba Member
Joined: April 06, 2006 Posts: 34023 Location: Conejo Valley, CA
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Posted: Thu Oct 05, 2023 10:05 am Post subject: Re: Early 411 front differences |
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Kinda looks like the box reinforcements added to the same areas on the "shark nose" Type 3 front ends in 1970. It was part of the efforts to define crumple and stiff zones more thoughtfully, after the Nader witch hunts on the Beetle and Corvair, and impending crash standards.
Late examples:
Discussion of repair where these boxes were removed:
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=728053 |
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raygreenwood Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008 Posts: 21521 Location: Oklahoma City
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Posted: Thu Oct 05, 2023 10:17 am Post subject: Re: Early 411 front differences |
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Yes. The 411 and 412 were some of the first "crumple zone" cars. While the early 411 was also crumple zone.....as you note....the later cars had reinforcing to make sure it all did not crumple at one time but crumpled forward first. And now that you point it out that....I can see they probabpy incorporated it into type 3 as well. Ray |
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KTPhil Samba Member
Joined: April 06, 2006 Posts: 34023 Location: Conejo Valley, CA
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Posted: Thu Oct 05, 2023 10:34 am Post subject: Re: Early 411 front differences |
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I think at one point in the late 1960s VW probably thought the Type 4 might be the only car they could sell, should the unbelted 50 mph crash standards being talked about come to pass. It was the only model with a long enough front to handle the required crush distance/time. A Motor Trend article had "secret" (not really) photos of VW crash tests and experimental cars, and the most successful were either a totally new design, or an outgrowth of the Type 4 series cars.
These were going to be our cars:
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Chris Walden Samba Member
Joined: June 03, 2010 Posts: 147 Location: Indianapolis, Indiana
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Posted: Thu Oct 05, 2023 8:10 pm Post subject: Re: Early 411 front differences |
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Oh, this is funny. I had 3 type 4’s in the 80’s/90’s the last of which was a 69. I thought that the “reinforcements” had simply rotted away...as had much else...and sheet metal had been tacked over. Learn somethin new ever day.
Chris
[/vimeo] |
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Lars S Samba Member
Joined: October 04, 2007 Posts: 786 Location: Sweden
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Posted: Thu Oct 05, 2023 9:59 pm Post subject: Re: Early 411 front differences |
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Chris Walden wrote: |
Oh, this is funny. I had 3 type 4’s in the 80’s/90’s the last of which was a 69. I thought that the “reinforcements” had simply rotted away...as had much else...and sheet metal had been tacked over. Learn somethin new ever day.
Chris
[/vimeo] |
Yea, the reinforcements are about the first parts that rusts away, mud and dirt like to build up there and keep the moisture present.
/Lars S _________________ Porsche 914 -72, Bahia Red daily driver
VW411 2-d -70, White, sold
VW412 4-d, -73, Gold Metallic, daily driver
Suzuki T500, -69, Candy Gold, sold
Suzuki K50, -77, Black, daily driver
BMW R69S -69, White, sold
Husqvarna 118cc, -47, Black, Sold |
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wonkipop Samba Member
Joined: January 05, 2021 Posts: 30 Location: Australia
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Posted: Thu Oct 05, 2023 11:34 pm Post subject: Re: Early 411 front differences |
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external differences on a super early 411?
was snooping doing 914 research and stumbled on a VW factory film on you tube.
had footage of this baby.
think its a real early proto 411.
figured you guys might be interested.
maybe you have seen images of the car when it was in this early form.
think the styling for the headlights is pinanfarina. not positive.
(i noticed similarities with f. piech's aborted EA 226, same sweet little headlight details too).
i think the car was very pretty at this stage.
i think they might have gone off piste when they went twin headlights?
somehow lost the "face-like" qualities that VWs had front on.
of course this could also be the aborted replacement for the type 3.
but i think it is the 411 at a real real early stage.
the film i was watching appeared to be dated around 66/67.
the oval headlight early 411s were not bad.
a sort of extension of what this one was.
but the headlight detail on this proto is super sexy. |
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GArBa Samba Member
Joined: January 27, 2014 Posts: 2105 Location: Milano, Italy
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Posted: Fri Oct 06, 2023 1:10 am Post subject: Re: Early 411 front differences |
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It always looked to me like Pininfarina was simply using for the 411 most of the same design cues of the almost contemporary BMC ADO17 "landcrab", the 411 oval headlight modification made the relationship less obvious but still recognizable. _________________ cars:
'97 type 1 1600i
'14 type AA Seat Mii (sadly dead after 270.000 km)
'22 type C1 T-Cross
'23 type AC3 Hyundai I10 (VW no longer makes small cars!)
-------------------------
moped:
'82 Benelli Magnum 3v |
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Pepperbilly Samba Member
Joined: April 08, 2017 Posts: 977 Location: Seattle, Wa
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Posted: Fri Oct 06, 2023 10:56 am Post subject: Re: Early 411 front differences |
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[quote="Lars S"]
Chris Walden wrote: |
Oh, this is funny. I had 3 type 4’s in the 80’s/90’s the last of which was a 69. I thought that the “reinforcements” had simply rotted away...as had much else...and sheet metal had been tacked over. Learn somethin new ever day.
Chris
[/vimeo] |
Yea, the reinforcements are about the first parts that rusts away, mud and dirt like to build up there and keep the moisture present.
/Lars S[/quote
For sure. That area trapped all kinds of dirt and moisture and would promote rot. When I was working on Goldie I had to shave the rotted areas on both inner fenders. I can just imagine if the car were subjected to salty conditions. I was pretty lucky with mine. A Pacific Northwest car that saw no salting of wintertime roads.
Bill |
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raygreenwood Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008 Posts: 21521 Location: Oklahoma City
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Posted: Fri Oct 06, 2023 11:25 am Post subject: Re: Early 411 front differences |
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[quote="Pepperbilly"]
Lars S wrote: |
Chris Walden wrote: |
Oh, this is funny. I had 3 type 4’s in the 80’s/90’s the last of which was a 69. I thought that the “reinforcements” had simply rotted away...as had much else...and sheet metal had been tacked over. Learn somethin new ever day.
Chris
[/vimeo] |
Yea, the reinforcements are about the first parts that rusts away, mud and dirt like to build up there and keep the moisture present.
/Lars S[/quote
For sure. That area trapped all kinds of dirt and moisture and would promote rot. When I was working on Goldie I had to shave the rotted areas on both inner fenders. I can just imagine if the car were subjected to salty conditions. I was pretty lucky with mine. A Pacific Northwest car that saw no salting of wintertime roads.
Bill |
They actually tried a little bit to keep thee from rusting...but not enough. Those reinforcing bulges have drain indentations on the underside. They also usually taped over the holes that were not used and then undercoated over those.
The holes are used on the right hand side for the tubes of the gas tank venting system. Those holes had grommets around them but when the grommets leaked or the hoses rotted, the reinforcing bulges leaked. The drains "work" but the bulges had no metal protection that I could see on the inside and they rust from the inside out.
The right hand side is actually worse because the fuel tank flap is there. When the vent hose rots and leaks you get paint and undercoating removal from fuel leakage and it rusts not only the reinforcing parts, it rusts the vertical seam of the fender where it bolts to the chassis.
As VW's first unibody/monocoque chassis (that I know of) there were a lot of "rust lessons" to be learned. Ray
Ray |
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Lars S Samba Member
Joined: October 04, 2007 Posts: 786 Location: Sweden
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Posted: Fri Oct 06, 2023 10:07 pm Post subject: Re: Early 411 front differences |
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wonkipop wrote: |
external differences on a super early 411?
was snooping doing 914 research and stumbled on a VW factory film on you tube.
had footage of this baby.
think its a real early proto 411.
....
...... |
Thanks, this is super intresting!!! Where is the link to the film?
I would guess this is the EA158 prototype (also called VW311) which was around in severeal editions from 1962. (It looks a bit wide on the film shots but I think that is a scaling issue).
It seemes to have a bold control arm which also the early VW311 har..the 411 should have had Mc Pherson from the start.
Also the taillight are wery similar to the VW311's
The EA158 was finally dropped in February 1969, it than had recieved dual front lights .
Yes, I also like the headlight arrangement on the early VW311, wery clean, something similar was used for the EA266 - the, by Porsche developed mid-engined beetle successor. About 50 of them was built around 1969...but thats another thread.
/Lars S _________________ Porsche 914 -72, Bahia Red daily driver
VW411 2-d -70, White, sold
VW412 4-d, -73, Gold Metallic, daily driver
Suzuki T500, -69, Candy Gold, sold
Suzuki K50, -77, Black, daily driver
BMW R69S -69, White, sold
Husqvarna 118cc, -47, Black, Sold |
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wonkipop Samba Member
Joined: January 05, 2021 Posts: 30 Location: Australia
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Posted: Sat Oct 07, 2023 2:22 am Post subject: Re: Early 411 front differences |
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Lars S wrote: |
wonkipop wrote: |
external differences on a super early 411?
was snooping doing 914 research and stumbled on a VW factory film on you tube.
had footage of this baby.
think its a real early proto 411.
....
...... |
Thanks, this is super intresting!!! Where is the link to the film?
/Lars S |
short pieces of the test footage are in this.
around about the middle somewhere.
you are correct the format has stretched it horizontally.
if it is the type 3 replacement they aborted what a shame.
there is about 1.5 seconds where the twin headlight version seems to make a very very brief appearance. i did not know about the twin headlight version.
.......but i think they made a mistake not going with the single headlight style.
good looking front end.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jMTnXQPJ1XQ |
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raygreenwood Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008 Posts: 21521 Location: Oklahoma City
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Posted: Sat Oct 07, 2023 9:30 am Post subject: Re: Early 411 front differences |
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Lars S wrote: |
wonkipop wrote: |
external differences on a super early 411?
was snooping doing 914 research and stumbled on a VW factory film on you tube.
had footage of this baby.
think its a real early proto 411.
....
...... |
Thanks, this is super intresting!!! Where is the link to the film?
I would guess this is the EA158 prototype (also called VW311) which was around in severeal editions from 1962. (It looks a bit wide on the film shots but I think that is a scaling issue).
It seemes to have a bold control arm which also the early VW311 har..the 411 should have had Mc Pherson from the start.
Also the taillight are wery similar to the VW311's
The EA158 was finally dropped in February 1969, it than had recieved dual front lights .
Yes, I also like the headlight arrangement on the early VW311, wery clean, something similar was used for the EA266 - the, by Porsche developed mid-engined beetle successor. About 50 of them was built around 1969...but thats another thread.
/Lars S |
It's interesting that the control arm you pointed out...when you look at the silver car with the 1966 plate in the 2nd picture.....you can see that it's "probably" or possibly still using struts.....but the control arm looks to be a shorter stamped/welded type unit. I say this because I can just make out that it appears to still have a radius arm rearward of the front control arm mounting point.
If I had not seen that....one could almost think that it might be an upper and lower A arm set up with a simple coil spring and shock like an American car back in those days.
The sway bar outer links look to be classic straight links with rubber donuts at each end. One could be forgiven if they thought it looked a little like a type 3 camber compensator.
Ray |
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wonkipop Samba Member
Joined: January 05, 2021 Posts: 30 Location: Australia
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Posted: Sat Oct 07, 2023 6:20 pm Post subject: Re: Early 411 front differences |
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Lars S wrote: |
wonkipop wrote: |
external differences on a super early 411?
was snooping doing 914 research and stumbled on a VW factory film on you tube.
had footage of this baby.
think its a real early proto 411.
....
...... |
Thanks, this is super intresting!!! Where is the link to the film?
I would guess this is the EA158 prototype (also called VW311) which was around in severeal editions from 1962. (It looks a bit wide on the film shots but I think that is a scaling issue).
Yes, I also like the headlight arrangement on the early VW311, wery clean, something similar was used for the EA266 - the, by Porsche developed mid-engined beetle successor. About 50 of them was built around 1969...but thats another thread.
/Lars S |
the 311 appeared to be repositioning the fuel tank to the rear of the car.
aside from the obvious filler flap there looks to be a lot of space between where the rear seat ends and the roof finishes. very large parcel shelf?
i believe porsche retain prototype 20 of the EA226 despite rumours that all but one were destroyed.
you can see that f piech (in charge of the project} appeared to have invented the GTI before the GTI.
central tacho like a 914 or 911 instead of speedo.
there was a hot motor at the top of the line with as much power as a 911T.
presumably this prototype has it installed?
i believe porsche also retain one of the mules from 67/68.
has a lot of styling cues from the 914. frameless quarter vent glass in door and squared up 914 door handles.
final version seemed to take up pinafarinna's work and consulting.
of course you never see these protos. porsche keeps them hidden.
project of shame and disaster for f. piech/porsche?
remarkable aspect of the car was its space saver spare.
this little VW would have had it as a world first if it had made it past leidling. porsche used it for the 917s at lemans instead.
we probably would have had a VW 311 if nordhoff hadn't died suddenly?
it might have done alright. maybe not.
any idea what engine was going to go in the 311?
was it still the type 3 pancake or would it have been a smaller displacement version of the type 4 engine?
an interesting period in time at VW and at Porsche.
of which we really only see the 411 as the outcome until VW got to the golf. |
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wonkipop Samba Member
Joined: January 05, 2021 Posts: 30 Location: Australia
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Posted: Sat Oct 07, 2023 6:51 pm Post subject: Re: Early 411 front differences |
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better film still Lars S and R Greenwood.
you can see the front arms.
i had another look at film footage for fuel cap.
pretty low res.
but in one pass by i think it can be just made out behind the rear door of the 4 door. very hard to tell, but its not visible at all on front guard where it is on a 411.
makes you wonder about all the space available in the rear of the 411/412 sedans above and forward of the engine they never exploited in the packaging like they did with the type 3 with a rear trunk.
did they have ideas about a rear fuel tank in type 4s they never went ahead with? would have made the front of the cars interesting. both for packaging - suspension design -------------and handling? |
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Lars S Samba Member
Joined: October 04, 2007 Posts: 786 Location: Sweden
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Posted: Sat Oct 07, 2023 10:25 pm Post subject: Re: Early 411 front differences |
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wonkipop wrote: |
better film still Lars S and R Greenwood.
you can see the front arms.
i had another look at film footage for fuel cap.
pretty low res.
but in one pass by i think it can be just made out behind the rear door of the 4 door. very hard to tell, but its not visible at all on front guard where it is on a 411.
makes you wonder about all the space available in the rear of the 411/412 sedans above and forward of the engine they never exploited in the packaging like they did with the type 3 with a rear trunk.
did they have ideas about a rear fuel tank in type 4s they never went ahead with? would have made the front of the cars interesting. both for packaging - suspension design -------------and handling? |
Thanks again wonkipop!
I also think they wasted the area behind the rear set on the 411 sedan, yes it had a big front trunk and maybe they thought that was enough but still the trunk was smaller than many of it competitors. Of course, leaving the area as it was came out cheaper.
To have the fuel tank at the rear i believe would be a disaster thinking of where the gravity center would have gone.
About the fuel cap on the "VW311" I can not understand why it is put so far forward? Almost like the fuel was going to a tank under the rear seat...
I get puzzled by this video, the control arms are not 411 but the size of the car looks wery much like 411. However, according to book sources, the EA158 was in its later version "VW311 special" made about 30cm longer since they then wanted it to replace the Type3 and not the Type1 as with the early EA158
/Lars S _________________ Porsche 914 -72, Bahia Red daily driver
VW411 2-d -70, White, sold
VW412 4-d, -73, Gold Metallic, daily driver
Suzuki T500, -69, Candy Gold, sold
Suzuki K50, -77, Black, daily driver
BMW R69S -69, White, sold
Husqvarna 118cc, -47, Black, Sold |
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Lars S Samba Member
Joined: October 04, 2007 Posts: 786 Location: Sweden
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Posted: Sat Oct 07, 2023 11:20 pm Post subject: Re: Early 411 front differences |
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wonkipop wrote: |
.....
the 311 appeared to be repositioning the fuel tank to the rear of the car.
aside from the obvious filler flap there looks to be a lot of space between where the rear seat ends and the roof finishes. very large parcel shelf?
i believe porsche retain prototype 20 of the EA226 despite rumours that all but one were destroyed.
you can see that f piech (in charge of the project} appeared to have invented the GTI before the GTI.
central tacho like a 914 or 911 instead of speedo.
there was a hot motor at the top of the line with as much power as a 911T.
presumably this prototype has it installed?
...
i believe porsche also retain one of the mules from 67/68.
has a lot of styling cues from the 914. frameless quarter vent glass in door and squared up 914 door handles.
final version seemed to take up pinafarinna's work and consulting.
of course you never see these protos. porsche keeps them hidden.
project of shame and disaster for f. piech/porsche?
remarkable aspect of the car was its space saver spare.
this little VW would have had it as a world first if it had made it past leidling. porsche used it for the 917s at lemans instead.
we probably would have had a VW 311 if nordhoff hadn't died suddenly?
it might have done alright. maybe not.
any idea what engine was going to go in the 311?
was it still the type 3 pancake or would it have been a smaller displacement version of the type 4 engine?
an interesting period in time at VW and at Porsche.
of which we really only see the 411 as the outcome until VW got to the golf. |
The engine in the VW311 was from what I have found out from books, in the last stages the same flat boxer as in the Type3 but it might have had the type1 engine to start with. (At a late stage they prolonged the VW311 by some 30cm and called it "VW311 spezial").
In stead of putting the VW311 into production they 1970 made the long nose version of the existing Type3. (They also made a prototype of the Type3 with McPherson front end). It might have been the right desicion; they had to make room for more modern designs as the Golf .
I see it as more regrettable that the EA266 never made it into production, even if I doubt it would have been a sucess looking at it complexity (read price!).
Yes the engine of the EA266 was something special, watercooled 4-cyl lying flat down, you can see the yellow D-jet injectors to the right.
There had to be some special arrangements made to have the engine in front of the rear axle; the oil dip stick was about 1,5m long and with a hinge in the middle so that you could fold it and get the stick tip closer to see the oil level.
Battry and spare wheel under front seats...
Extensive model programme was planned..
/lars S _________________ Porsche 914 -72, Bahia Red daily driver
VW411 2-d -70, White, sold
VW412 4-d, -73, Gold Metallic, daily driver
Suzuki T500, -69, Candy Gold, sold
Suzuki K50, -77, Black, daily driver
BMW R69S -69, White, sold
Husqvarna 118cc, -47, Black, Sold |
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raygreenwood Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008 Posts: 21521 Location: Oklahoma City
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Posted: Sun Oct 08, 2023 7:48 am Post subject: Re: Early 411 front differences |
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Look carefully at the front view picture of the yellow car.
What I have been speculating to be "control arms" of some similarly to our control arms on our 411/412....are not.
They are almost knock offs of what are on a 914....which are actually transverse A-arms....or transverse control arms. Still a strut suspension but not Macpherson strut. Shorter.
And, the basic 914 does not use coil springs. It uses a transverse torsion bar with outer links that look just like what is mounted under this car.
So.....early 914/911 front suspension?
Ray |
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Lars S Samba Member
Joined: October 04, 2007 Posts: 786 Location: Sweden
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Posted: Sun Oct 08, 2023 8:51 am Post subject: Re: Early 411 front differences |
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raygreenwood wrote: |
Look carefully at the front view picture of the yellow car.
What I have been speculating to be "control arms" of some similarly to our control arms on our 411/412....are not.
They are almost knock offs of what are on a 914....which are actually transverse A-arms....or transverse control arms. Still a strut suspension but not Macpherson strut. Shorter.
And, the basic 914 does not use coil springs. It uses a transverse torsion bar with outer links that look just like what is mounted under this car.
So.....early 914/911 front suspension?
Ray |
Good point Ray! The yellow car above is the mid engined EA266 which was ment to replace the Beetle, it was a pure Porsche design developed between 66-71.
It is written that it had torsion bars at the rear but I have not found anything for the front.
Another front wiew:
Shocks do not go into trunk:
At last a pic of the world record long oil dip stick
(note Golf MK1 look-a-like rear lenses)
/Lars S _________________ Porsche 914 -72, Bahia Red daily driver
VW411 2-d -70, White, sold
VW412 4-d, -73, Gold Metallic, daily driver
Suzuki T500, -69, Candy Gold, sold
Suzuki K50, -77, Black, daily driver
BMW R69S -69, White, sold
Husqvarna 118cc, -47, Black, Sold |
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wonkipop Samba Member
Joined: January 05, 2021 Posts: 30 Location: Australia
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Posted: Sun Oct 08, 2023 2:20 pm Post subject: Re: Early 411 front differences |
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re EA266 i understand the whole front end was more or less 911-914 including the steering rack. ie symmetrical steering rack and connection to steering wheel via diagonal shaft and u joint arrangement. though that might only have been so in the first development mule design prototypes. nevertheless if you look closely at either of the prototypes that survive the front sway bar is as per 911 and 914. you can see the connection halfway along the lower A arm. the sway bar would have run through the body higher up probably just under the fuel tank. there was a lot about that version that in detail was very 914. suspect heinrich klie was very involved in the initial design. a different team did the later version - same guys that developed the 928.
the car would have had sweet handling -------up to a point. would have been a handful for the average driver once you went past the limits of grip? always looked to me like they were trying to engineer tendency to spin out of it.
see widely splayed rear wheels and exaggerated rear flared outer wheel wells.
i did read an account that noted VW test engineers were concerned with its handling in wet and low grip situations. though i have seen test footage of the mule prototype being driven in deep snow and it looked like the test driver was having real fun with it - but i guess thats not an average driver.
i understand the 3 cylinder and 4 cylinder in line laid flat engines for the VW were being co developed by piech alongside 6 and 8 cylinder boxers that would have gone in porsches. all water cooled. the VW versions were more or less a half of the porsche versions.
the project seemed to be a comprehensive re think of both brands and their platforms funded largely by VW in a sweetheart deal approved by h. nordhoff that came seriously unstuck after his death.
in contrast whatever you can see on the front of the 311 prototype in terms of suspension arms is not like anything i can think of when it comes to VWs of that era.
as an australian i can say it would not have faired well down here or in south africa with the roads we had and still have in some instances. you would have been tearing the front end out. VWs could go anywhere in australia or any road.
part of the secret was there was nothing underneath that could get seriously damaged. very hard to "sump" an aircooled VW. sumping a car being an australian reference to taking out the sump pan leading to a long walk home or finding a tree to sit under while you waited to be found.
@Lars S - that dipstick is hilarious. |
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