Wiring a 62 - 65 with emergency flashers

[70bus]

I have spent weeks reading various posts regarding flashers, turnsignals, and related issues with this version of buses before the 9-pin flasher box. Despite this, I still have questions! My bus is a factory 12-volt (M620/621) which adds an extra layer of fun, but that's a complication, not a basic issue.

What I think IS a basic issue is: do we actually have accurate wiring diagrams for these buses, especially after 63? We have a factory diagram for the 63:

The 63 "created by bus owner with emergency flashers:"

has some important wiring differences.


The one for a 65 "created by bus owner:"

has no dash light for emergency flashers.


This is very similar to the Wolfsburg West version, made by Wiring Works (which has the dash light):

Subtle differences in 1990s Wiring Works harness:

This appears to be similar to WWest:

VW made minor detail changes through the years, so small things change (e.g. dome lights), but the way power is fed to the instrument cluster for the e-flasher version seems to have an important change at some point; this, in my opinion, is one reason so many people have issues with the lights. The other seems to be with the way modern relays are built internally, and how they are grounded. Or is it that the '63 eflasher' diagram is wrong, and trying to wire that way is the issue?

If you completely rewire a bus using most modern harnesses, diagrams and modern relays - like the WWest setup - it seems that most have minor issues, like bad grounds, shorts, wrong connection. The fun seems to begin when you have a partial rewire of an existing bus. If you have original flashers and try to wire the bus the way the 'owner 65' or WWest diagrams show, things go wrong, and kludges start to abound: diodes, moving feeds from one fuse to another, insulated bulb sockets, cutting wires, changing wires... so maybe trying the 63 diagrams are the best bet. If you have modern flashers and try to put them in a 63-type bus, you will aslo have problems - but it sounds like adding grounds solves many of them.


I guess I have some questions here: why did VW change the way power flowed through the dash in these buses ? When? Why is the 'eflasher 63' identical to 'VW 63' except for the t/s indicator wiring? And how many owners of 'original' 63-65 buses want to go out and see which diagram they match? I do understand how that t/s indicator light works; I want to know why there are two different ways shown to wire it.

I am admittedly quite stupid in figuring out wiring diagrams, and having them drawn slightly different doesn't help, but I'm thinking you either have to wire as '63 with emergency flashers,' with 4-prong flasher relays or equivalent, or you have to wire as WWest shows, with all modern parts, even w/ e-flashers. Hybrids are trouble. I could be way off. I still think it's worth investigating why the power feed to the indicator is changed, and when.

My 65 came with a rat's nest so it offers few clues

Melted the whole length front to back:

As I am starting over, I can wire it any version; I have both the WWorks and WWest harnesses... but I'd like to wire it factory, with the original-style flasher relays I have. So I am going to try the owner-made '63 w/ eflashers' even though it wires the t/s indicator different than the 'factory' diagram (which seems otherwise identical and even has an e-flasher relay!). At first glance, it looks like both the WWerks or WWest main harnesses can be used interchangeably, and most of the wiring differences I'm talking about are in the dash harnesses... but let me know if I'm wrong. My goal is to identify where issues could arise before I get there - but at least I have spare harnesses in case I smoke one...
_________________
Craig K
70 Neunsitzer
65 Pritschenwagen
"If Von Dutch was alive, he'd walk in there with a pistol and shoot these people."
-Robert Williams

[BarryL]

My Germany delivered '65 USA spec is wired like the diagram that has the turn signals work with the key off.

Also you know you got it wired correct when you pull up to park with your turn signal on and keep your foot on the brake and turn off the ignition and the bus goes run-off-run-off-run-off until you let up the brake.

[70bus]

[BarryL]

I'll try to find it tomorrow. It's one a guy started a thread on and spent numerous hours getting all the fine subtleties.

[BarryL]

[telford dorr]

4-way flashers were kind of an afterthought on early buses (e.g. only installed on export models that required them, but allowing it to be done as an add-on), so the wiring reflects that. What the differences are depends on whether you have a separate 4-way flasher lamp or not. If you don't, then the normal dash turn indicator needed to flash when the 4-way flashers were active. This requires that the dash turn indicator, like the flasher, be provided with full time power. If the bus has a separate 4-way flasher indicator, then the dash turn indicator could be wired to ignition switch power, and thus only flash when the key is on. The downside is that the dash turn indicator does not flash if you accidentally hit the turn switch lever as you exit the bus, thus triggering the turn signals but not the indicator.

Side note: when pulled, the 4-way flasher switch simply connects all four of its connection together. Otherwise, they are all isolated from one another. In 4-way flasher mode, the relay it drives shifts the load for the front turn lamps away from the flasher, so that it only ever drives two turn lamps. When this relay is activated by powering terminal 86, terminals 87, 87b, and 30 are all connected together. Otherwise, they are all isolated from one another.

Given that the turn signals and thus the 4-way flashers are supplied with full time power, I'd wire the dash turn indicator so that it has full time power. If you have a separate 4-way flasher indicator, wire it as shown in the schematics.

One reason they switched to the 9-pin relay in later splits (along with a lower parts count) was to solve the turn signal power source conundrum, as the 9-pin relay switches the flasher power source when the 4-way flashers are activated.

Also note that ALL relays (including the headlight relay) need to have their cases grounded by clipping them onto the body somewhere, otherwise they don't work right.
_________________
'71 panel, now with FI
'Experience' is the ability to recognize a mistake when you're making it again - Franklin P. Jones
In theory, theory works in practice; in practice, it doesn't - William T. Harbaugh
When you're dead, you don't know you're dead. The pain is only felt by others.
Same thing happens when you're stupid. - Philippe Geluck
More VW electrical at http://telforddorr.com/ (available 9am to 9pm PST)

[70bus]

Thanks; that's critical info - a 'made by owner' drawing could be anything, but being able to see process and knowing it matches another 65 is what I was after. As the VW 63 has all the same setup SAVE the dash flasher, yet is wired different, Telford's explanation makes total sense: the indicator light circuit getting off the 15 on the ignition switch, thus always powered.

So, why is the WWest 65 w/ flasher not wired this way? Is this a byproduct of moving to 3 terminal flashers?
_________________
Craig K
70 Neunsitzer
65 Pritschenwagen
"If Von Dutch was alive, he'd walk in there with a pistol and shoot these people."
-Robert Williams

[telford dorr]

[70bus]

That's what I'm asking - is the WWest harness wired differently than the 'owner 63' due to the change from metal-bodied relays to the ones without Kbl and plastic bodies. I'm unclear how changing the ground path necessitates changing the power source for the speedo indicator bulb. Also not cear why losing Kbl has same result, but I assume there may be no good substitute - I noted the many kludges, like adding a wire to 49a, but they all required more work to fix issues THAT created.

As far as the earlier Wiring Works chart, it seems different than his later WWest version - the indicator light has a lead from Kbl, but he doesn't show the other line to that bulb, which should be power from a dome light switch. Anyone in touch w/Bob Nordvik want to ask him about it for me? :)
_________________
Craig K
70 Neunsitzer
65 Pritschenwagen
"If Von Dutch was alive, he'd walk in there with a pistol and shoot these people."
-Robert Williams

[telford dorr]

If the flasher does NOT have a Kbl terminal, then the only way to get a working dash indicator is to connect it to terminal 49a / S. The other side of the indicator MUST be connected to the same power source as flasher terminal 49 / + for this to work (unless you want to install a diode in series with the dash indicator, which I gather you wouldn't want to do...). The issue arises if the flasher is full-time powered but the dash indicator is powered from the ignition switch. When the key is off, power flows through the flasher and indicator into an unpowered ignition circuit, causing the indicator to light / flash. Using a flasher with a Kbl terminal (or adding a blocking diode) avoids this issue.
_________________
'71 panel, now with FI
'Experience' is the ability to recognize a mistake when you're making it again - Franklin P. Jones
In theory, theory works in practice; in practice, it doesn't - William T. Harbaugh
When you're dead, you don't know you're dead. The pain is only felt by others.
Same thing happens when you're stupid. - Philippe Geluck
More VW electrical at http://telforddorr.com/ (available 9am to 9pm PST)

[emersonbiggins]

On a 65 is the red light by the fuel gauge supposed to flash when the flashers are on? Mine will just stay on when I turn the flashers on.
Mine was a wiring mess. I converted it to 12 volt and added a 9 pin flasher I had. The truck wasn’t drivable when I got it so I don’t know what it did before.

[70bus]

Yes, it should flash. 9-pin might be bad, or wiring may not be right.
You can go stock '63 incl emergency,' 65 like a new Wolfsburg West and other harnesses are, or try the 66 w/ 9-pin and eflasher supplement.
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/archives/info/wiringt2.php

Al three involve troubleshooting, but there are dozens of posts to wade through to help figure it out.

If you do the 65, note the speedo indicator light is wired differently, and the source of most issues. Telford explains it just up from you.
_________________
Craig K
70 Neunsitzer
65 Pritschenwagen
"If Von Dutch was alive, he'd walk in there with a pistol and shoot these people."
-Robert Williams

[Troytempest69]

This may not help, but thought I’d post it just in case. There’s a VW wiring diagram here for retrofit of an emergency flasher

https://www.thesamba.com/vw/archives/manuals/techbulletins/e18.php

[70bus]

Yes, wiring as a 66 with eflashers is a good way to go and not have to remember too much custom work (be sure to note it somewhere the next owner will find it!). Also, the e-flasher SWITCH is different than a 65 and you'll need to get the right one. With the proper switch, you don't even hook up the dash flasher light - tho I suppose you could.
_________________
Craig K
70 Neunsitzer
65 Pritschenwagen
"If Von Dutch was alive, he'd walk in there with a pistol and shoot these people."
-Robert Williams

[emersonbiggins]

I used my 4 prong 65 emergency switch and ran one wire to -S and a second wire from a terminal to ground and left 2 wires off.
The red emergency light in the dash I ran to 54f. Everything works as it should when the key is off and on with the turn signals and flashers.

[70bus]

Speedo indicator SOLVED plus LED compatibilty - thanks to T3 owner RedSquare, who not only confirmed something, but found a solution... AND it allows you to use LEDs on your flasher circuits!

Basically, RedSquare confirmed that as our relays age, they may not function as designed due to hidden corrosion; in the case of speedo indicator lights, the 'load sense' relay that triggers KBL may get corroded, dirty, and dodgy.
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=...p;start=60

While looking for solutions, they tracked down a company that makes components for Pantera automobiles, which just happened to use the same Bosch 211 953 218C (marked as 0336 401 004) t/s relay as many VWs:

https://www.pantera-electronics.com/signal%20flasher.htm

AND it works with LEDs, and has a variable flasher rate. My 65 eflasher circuit works as factory, BUT the speedo light often only lit once or twice, despite having correct bulbs; sure enough the KBL relay was iffy (on several NOS units, I might add), and as soon as I hooked up the Pantera Electronics kit the indicator light worked as it should. I put LEDs in the front t/s housings and it all still clicked happily away.

Another cool feature is that it fits inside your old Bosch housing, so no-one need know the innards are not stock, for those purists out there.

No, it isn't the metal can that came with my truck, but the later VW part is a common replacement for it, AND it works, AND I can run LEDs. A teeny compromise I am willing to make for a safer bus!
_________________
Craig K
70 Neunsitzer
65 Pritschenwagen
"If Von Dutch was alive, he'd walk in there with a pistol and shoot these people."
-Robert Williams

[70bus]

If you want to hide the Pantera Electronics relay board in a 211953215c box, there are a few mods to be made if you do NOT have a Bosch box; I had the ubiquitous Hellas and a taller and skinnier one marked VW SK675.

Anyways, the big difference between the Bosch and Hella relays is that the case is flipped as it were- the raised lettering is on the deep CASE on the Bosch units, and on the thin TOP of the Hellas. This will require a bit of surgery, as the relays are on dfferent sides of the circuit boards.

EDIT: the folks at Pantera Electronics tell me they are making a version that fits the VW SK675 box, and may be building a Hella version as well... to spare all those boxes out there from unnecessary plastic surgery.
_________________
Craig K
70 Neunsitzer
65 Pritschenwagen
"If Von Dutch was alive, he'd walk in there with a pistol and shoot these people."
-Robert Williams