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Sick of this and about to give up.
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Chochobeef
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 23, 2016 12:36 pm    Post subject: Re: Sick of this and about to give up. Reply with quote

Did you already have the customary 1 under the flange and 1 under the pump? Should have been a couple already on there. Hope someone can help ya out more. I'm in Ft. Worth so can't drive to Houston on a whim lol.

As for the OP, I think you have all the advice you can get. Time to just start doing all the little things as they will add up to one big thing.
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jovanybg
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 23, 2016 12:52 pm    Post subject: Re: Sick of this and about to give up. Reply with quote

Mr.Duncan wrote:
jovanybg wrote:




Yes, that is correct. Do 1 at a time. Add the gasket between the pump and the plastic flange.


I'll do that!

Any advice on the throat cold temperature? - normal it is or should be warm/hot?
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 23, 2016 12:55 pm    Post subject: Re: Sick of this and about to give up. Reply with quote

Intake manifold just below the carb is just going to be cold due to the evaporating fuel being finely sprayed into there. Thus the reason the heat riser tube is there to warm up the horizontal part of the intake.
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 23, 2016 12:56 pm    Post subject: Re: Sick of this and about to give up. Reply with quote

Chochobeef wrote:
Did you already have the customary 1 under the flange and 1 under the pump? Should have been a couple already on there. Hope someone can help ya out more. I'm in Ft. Worth so can't drive to Houston on a whim lol.

As for the OP, I think you have all the advice you can get. Time to just start doing all the little things as they will add up to one big thing.


Yes...This weather is not for driving during the day!!! Mr.Duncan will have a look at the car whenever he has a chance in the future, but thank you!

I do have one gasket under the plastic and one above it, but now will install a second one above (between the plastic flange and the pump).
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 23, 2016 12:57 pm    Post subject: Re: Sick of this and about to give up. Reply with quote

Eric&Barb wrote:
Intake manifold just below the carb is just going to be cold due to the evaporating fuel being finely sprayed into there. Thus the reason the heat riser tube is there to warm up the horizontal part of the intake.

That brings piece of mind!!! Thanks a lot!!!
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 23, 2016 1:16 pm    Post subject: Re: Sick of this and about to give up. Reply with quote

No problem!
Some of the heat from the heat riser tube will make it up to the top of the intake and help melt any frozen water that collects up there.

Our 1960 walk thru panel camper conversion is running a 1641 cc SP engine with 40 HP air cleaner, and working thermostatic flaps and preheat. Have had maybe six times over many years when outside temp and humidity is just right that a mile or so from starting cold the engine looses power no matter how much more the gas pedal is pressed down. Found that most of the time just pulling over and letting it idle will clear out the ice in less than a minute. On one or two of those times it would not even idle. So it will die and let the engine just sit for about 3 minutes to let the heat from the engine rise up in the engine compartment to heat up the carb and intake.
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 23, 2016 2:28 pm    Post subject: Re: Sick of this and about to give up. Reply with quote

Zundfolge1432 wrote:
..Next we adjusted the idle mixture going in till a decrease in speed then out about two and a half turns.......

Why would you do that?, the VW spec is adjust for best idle and then turn in until it drops 50 RPM (~1/4 turn). 2 1/2 turns out will make it idle pig rich, especially when it warms up fully, that's why I had asked SB001 to do the cupped hand on the carb test about 10 pages ago since what he's describing sounds exactly like the idle mix is too rich.
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 23, 2016 2:37 pm    Post subject: Re: Sick of this and about to give up. Reply with quote

jovanybg wrote:
Mr.Duncan wrote:
jovanybg wrote:




Yes, that is correct. Do 1 at a time. Add the gasket between the pump and the plastic flange.


I'll do that!

Any advice on the throat cold temperature? - normal it is or should be warm/hot?


You need to replace the muffler and put a stock one back on it. The stock mufflers are designed to flow a LOT of hot exhaust through the carb manifold pre-heat tube. You also need to insure that tube is clear of carbon and is not clogged up which is very common.

Those heat riser tubes should get HOT like around 200 degrees hot. It keeps your single carb from icing up.
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 23, 2016 2:49 pm    Post subject: Re: Sick of this and about to give up. Reply with quote

wcfvw69 wrote:
Those heat riser tubes should get HOT like around 200 degrees hot. It keeps your single carb from icing up.


Oh no help me my engine is overheating duuuude.......

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 23, 2016 3:02 pm    Post subject: Re: Sick of this and about to give up. Reply with quote

asiab3 wrote:
wcfvw69 wrote:
Those heat riser tubes should get HOT like around 200 degrees hot. It keeps your single carb from icing up.


Oh no help me my engine is overheating duuuude.......

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Did I say 200, um.. yea, I really meant "like 400".. Laughing Ok! So, I meant that they should get HOT!!

Thanks for correcting my blond error Robbie. Very Happy And, I'm going to steal that picture!
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 23, 2016 3:47 pm    Post subject: Re: Sick of this and about to give up. Reply with quote

wcfvw69 wrote:

You need to replace the muffler and put a stock one back on it. The stock mufflers are designed to flow a LOT of hot exhaust through the carb manifold pre-heat tube. You also need to insure that tube is clear of carbon and is not clogged up which is very common.

Those heat riser tubes should get HOT like around 200 degrees hot. It keeps your single carb from icing up.


That is the first thing to do next week. Here is what the present exhaust looks like:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

How easy it is to swap the muffler? Are all the flanges line up correctly - the muffler I've got is made in Danemark...
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 23, 2016 4:23 pm    Post subject: Re: Sick of this and about to give up. Reply with quote

busdaddy wrote:
Zundfolge1432 wrote:
..Next we adjusted the idle mixture going in till a decrease in speed then out about two and a half turns.......

Why would you do that?, the VW spec is adjust for best idle and then turn in until it drops 50 RPM (~1/4 turn). 2 1/2 turns out will make it idle pig rich, especially when it warms up fully, that's why I had asked SB001 to do the cupped hand on the carb test about 10 pages ago since what he's describing sounds exactly like the idle mix is too rich.


busdaddy wrote:
Zundfolge1432 wrote:
..Next we adjusted the idle mixture going in till a decrease in speed then out about two and a half turns.......

Why would you do that?, the VW spec is adjust for best idle and then turn in until it drops 50 RPM (~1/4 turn). 2 1/2 turns out will make it idle pig rich, especially when it warms up fully, that's why I had asked SB001 to do the cupped hand on the carb test about 10 pages ago since what he's describing sounds exactly like the idle mix is too rich.


Sorry for the length of the following post! Cool

If it makes you feel any better Ive tried everything regarding carb adjustment. I did also try cupping my hand over the top of the carb and it wanted to die when I did that. Seemed pretty normal to me.

I tried two things last night- I bent the vacuum advance pipe closer to what the photo shows and what johnnypan was describing. Then I adjusted my autostick control valve clockwise (opening control reduction valve a little more.) I did not touch anything else. For whatever reason one or both of these resulted in a lot more power while driving (I really had to romp the brakes on the way to work and back to fight the car from wanting to move forward when trying to stop.)
BUT, it made no difference in the issue we are having-- once I started getting close to home it began idling low again at stops and then when I turned into my driveway it sputtered and barely kept running. I pulled it back into neutral and idle did increase but it was still low.
That turn into my driveway has me baffled. THis maneuver ALWAYS causes the engine to sputter. I come down a slight hill toward my house, and I hit the brakes as I take the left turn into my driveway, and hit the driveway coming up over a slight hump from the road. Every single time this causes the engine to sputter and usually die. I am convinced at this point that whatever the ultimate issue is that is causing our low idle problem at stops, is "enhanced' during this maneuver.
My cloth braided rubber fuel line that stretches from the frame tunnel pipe to the metal pipe that passes through the front tin into the engine bay, is fairly short and routed very close if not right up against the left side heat exchanger. Possibly this line getting pushed against the left side heat exchanger when I make this maneuver heating the fuel? It does NOT happen when I take a left turn during normal driving. ONLY when I am hitting the brakes and slowing as I turn left into the drive and come up over the slight hump. Baffling.
I have checked my fan thoroughly for debris trapped in it, it is fine. I have made sure that my fan shroud flaps linkage is FULLY OPEN, with no thermostat installed this is the default position. This position also pushes the flap in the air cleaner completely open to ambient air. Even if I unhook the cable from the air cleaner flap, the flap's design causes it to stay in that position- closing off the preheat and opening up the ambient air passage. That is its default position in case it ever had to be run with no cable (which virtually everyone does.) So it has nothing to do with my fan shroud flaps or air cleaner preheat flap.
This weekend I am going to try to remove the fuel tank and see if anything is trapping the outlet pipe-- maybe something is in there that is clogging that outlet but it's hard for me to imagine that would ONLY happen after the car is completely warmed up. I am also going to try to find a thermometer, I'll buy the laser one if need be, and check engine oil sump, heat riser, and any other temps I need to. The engine bay is getting SO HOT, that it's hard for me to believe it is just the cooling fan "lugging" from the low idle. I can't imagine fixing that issue magically bringing the engine bay temps down to a significantly lower level. This afternoon when I got home I couldn't even touch the decklid handle for more than a couple seconds.
I am completely flummoxed about this whole mess. It is hard to not be able to figure this out. I desperately wish someone else could look at this in person.
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Last edited by sb001 on Thu Jun 23, 2016 4:29 pm; edited 3 times in total
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 23, 2016 4:24 pm    Post subject: Re: Sick of this and about to give up. Reply with quote

If the muffler is of good quality it is pretty easy. DO NOT tighten any fastener down till you have them all in place.

Biggest danger is when removing the old muffler. The four nuts on the rear of the heads due to the exhaust heat get corroded in place. Just putting a bigger handle socket wrench will result in breaking off the stud. Then you have to drill out the old studs or take the heads off and have them fixed.
Better if they are too hard to wrench off to just take a hammer and chisel and cut thru one side of the nut.
When putting on the new muffler at least install all the threaded fasteners with a good quality anti-seize. Even better get copper exhaust nuts from your Toyota dealer to go with the anti-seize.

Get out your Bentley VW Official Service Manual and read thru the procedure.

You will need these (#18 ) to go into the top of the heater bubbles on the muffler and of course a muffler seal and gasket kit:

http://www.wolfsburgwest.com/wolfsburg_new/fuelsystem/bug_mufflers.cfm?type=1
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 23, 2016 4:28 pm    Post subject: Re: Sick of this and about to give up. Reply with quote

jovanybg wrote:


That is the first thing to do next week. Here is what the present exhaust looks like:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

How easy it is to swap the muffler? Are all the flanges line up correctly - the muffler I've got is made in Danemark...


If you have PB blaster, spray all the securing nuts on the existing header now, especially the nuts that secure the header to the heads. If not, go buy some. Apply it a couple of times a day for a day or two. It has just a touch of acid that will eat through the rust and help them come off easier.

That header isn't doing squat for providing any exhaust flow through your carb manifold preheat. You will notice a difference when you install a stock muffler. Again, make sure the preheat tubes are clear of carbon before bolting the new muffler on.
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 23, 2016 5:02 pm    Post subject: Re: Sick of this and about to give up. Reply with quote

jovanybg, something I don't think anyone's asked you yet-- aside from the low idle/stalling issues you are having like I am, is your engine bay getting remarkably hot? Like, if you go for about a 20 minute or so drive (esp. in stop and go traffic) and then check the engine bay, is it hard to hold the deck lid handle? Or if you touch anything inside the engine bay is it unbearably hot?

I realize yours is a ghia and maybe there are enough differences in the design to cause the heat not to be as much of an issue with your car--just curious if that is a similarity we share as well.
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 23, 2016 5:03 pm    Post subject: Re: Sick of this and about to give up. Reply with quote

Ok, we have 2 people trying to sort out their problems and its making it difficult to follow. jovanybg, I suggest make your own thread.
I suggested how the carb is probably percolating causing the engine to flood and die, and you say it doesnt get to the "crux" of the problem of the engine overheating. Its been suggested that you use a tennis ball to prop the deck lid open or remove the lid and see how it goes, but you haven't tried it! But now your again confused why the engine is dying again! Try to get the engine cooler by giving it cool air, use a tennis ball or remove the deck lid!
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 23, 2016 5:26 pm    Post subject: Re: Sick of this and about to give up. Reply with quote

VolkzBitz wrote:
Ok, we have 2 people trying to sort out their problems and its making it difficult to follow. jovanybg, I suggest make your own thread.
I suggested how the carb is probably percolating causing the engine to flood and die, and you say it doesnt get to the "crux" of the problem of the engine overheating. Its been suggested that you use a tennis ball to prop the deck lid open or remove the lid and see how it goes, but you haven't tried it! But now your again confused why the engine is dying again! Try to get the engine cooler by giving it cool air, use a tennis ball or remove the deck lid!


SB maybe you will LISTEN to this man. The gap you have between the engine tin and the seal, the "impossible to make up without the type 4 seal" one...that is the HOTTEST spot on the whole damn car. Not only is the muffler there, but if you put your hand IN FRONT of the muffler, you will feel a pulse of air (once warmed up rather HOT air) that comes from the fan pumping cooling air around the cylinders and heads, and out the rear of the car. You have a non vented deck lid, without anything propping it open for additional venting. GUESS WHERE YOUR FAN IS SUCKING ADDITIONAL AIR FROM? That godamned gap is where, the hottest air possibly being supplied to it, especially when the car is stopped, ESPECIALLY at idle where the fan isn't moving fast enough to really cool the engine. You are cooling the engine down with hot air that the engine already heated up. Recycling heat over and over again.
You keep saying it dies when you get home, perhaps after a day of sitting in a parking lot in the sun? MMM? Does it do the same in the morning when you bang a left into a parking spot? After sitting in the cool, dark night air all night?
For giggles, without even spending the $20 on the type 4 seal, put some duct tape or something over that gap just to try....
The fuel line by the heat exchanger is NOT causing fuel to boil. The outside shell of the heat exchanger does not get hot enough, unless you somehow miraculously routed that fuel line up by the exhaust port and it is touching the ACTUAL exhaust pipe. One should be able to drive for HOURS and get out and touch those HE shells with no problem. There is constantly air flowing through them....EXCHANGING HEAT. The pipe inside is likely 400 degrees, but it should not effect that fuel line. INSIDE the engine bay is a more likely spot to see the metal fuel line resting on a heat riser for the carb or something. The LH plug wire router thingy has a slot in the middle that is supposed to hold it in place to prevent that, then the rubber line goes from there to the fuel pump.
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 23, 2016 5:29 pm    Post subject: Re: Sick of this and about to give up. Reply with quote

VolkzBitz wrote:
Ok, we have 2 people trying to sort out their problems and its making it difficult to follow. jovanybg, I suggest make your own thread.
I suggested how the carb is probably percolating causing the engine to flood and die, and you say it doesnt get to the "crux" of the problem of the engine overheating. Its been suggested that you use a tennis ball to prop the deck lid open or remove the lid and see how it goes, but you haven't tried it! But now your again confused why the engine is dying again! Try to get the engine cooler by giving it cool air, use a tennis ball or remove the deck lid!


I'll be happy to try the tennis ball trick tomorrow now that I have one (borrowed from a neighbor tonight.)
But running the car without the deck lid? What good would that do even if it worked, other than tell me I can't run the car with a deck lid anymore? Confused Or is that a test to determine something else that might be the issue?

Rockorod I will fill that gap as suggested earlier and see if that fixes it, until I can get the good pancake type seal or the one that Chris Vallone sells.
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 23, 2016 5:54 pm    Post subject: Re: Sick of this and about to give up. Reply with quote

sb001 wrote:

But running the car without the deck lid? What good would that do even if it worked, other than tell me I can't run the car with a deck lid anymore? Confused Or is that a test to determine something else that might be the issue?


If getting the engine cooled by either removing the deck lid or using the tennis ball cures the problem, then you can rule out carb or dizzy problems. Then focus on cooling the engine.
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 23, 2016 5:57 pm    Post subject: Re: Sick of this and about to give up. Reply with quote

sb001 wrote:
busdaddy wrote:
Zundfolge1432 wrote:
..Next we adjusted the idle mixture going in till a decrease in speed then out about two and a half turns.......

Why would you do that?, the VW spec is adjust for best idle and then turn in until it drops 50 RPM (~1/4 turn). 2 1/2 turns out will make it idle pig rich, especially when it warms up fully, that's why I had asked SB001 to do the cupped hand on the carb test about 10 pages ago since what he's describing sounds exactly like the idle mix is too rich.


busdaddy wrote:
Zundfolge1432 wrote:
..Next we adjusted the idle mixture going in till a decrease in speed then out about two and a half turns.......

Why would you do that?, the VW spec is adjust for best idle and then turn in until it drops 50 RPM (~1/4 turn). 2 1/2 turns out will make it idle pig rich, especially when it warms up fully, that's why I had asked SB001 to do the cupped hand on the carb test about 10 pages ago since what he's describing sounds exactly like the idle mix is too rich.


Sorry for the length of the following post! Cool

If it makes you feel any better Ive tried everything regarding carb adjustment. I did also try cupping my hand over the top of the carb and it wanted to die when I did that. Seemed pretty normal to me.

I tried two things last night- I bent the vacuum advance pipe closer to what the photo shows and what johnnypan was describing. Then I adjusted my autostick control valve clockwise (opening control reduction valve a little more.) I did not touch anything else. For whatever reason one or both of these resulted in a lot more power while driving (I really had to romp the brakes on the way to work and back to fight the car from wanting to move forward when trying to stop.)
BUT, it made no difference in the issue we are having-- once I started getting close to home it began idling low again at stops and then when I turned into my driveway it sputtered and barely kept running. I pulled it back into neutral and idle did increase but it was still low.
That turn into my driveway has me baffled. THis maneuver ALWAYS causes the engine to sputter. I come down a slight hill toward my house, and I hit the brakes as I take the left turn into my driveway, and hit the driveway coming up over a slight hump from the road. Every single time this causes the engine to sputter and usually die. I am convinced at this point that whatever the ultimate issue is that is causing our low idle problem at stops, is "enhanced' during this maneuver.
My cloth braided rubber fuel line that stretches from the frame tunnel pipe to the metal pipe that passes through the front tin into the engine bay, is fairly short and routed very close if not right up against the left side heat exchanger. Possibly this line getting pushed against the left side heat exchanger when I make this maneuver heating the fuel? It does NOT happen when I take a left turn during normal driving. ONLY when I am hitting the brakes and slowing as I turn left into the drive and come up over the slight hump. Baffling.
I have checked my fan thoroughly for debris trapped in it, it is fine. I have made sure that my fan shroud flaps linkage is FULLY OPEN, with no thermostat installed this is the default position. This position also pushes the flap in the air cleaner completely open to ambient air. Even if I unhook the cable from the air cleaner flap, the flap's design causes it to stay in that position- closing off the preheat and opening up the ambient air passage. That is its default position in case it ever had to be run with no cable (which virtually everyone does.) So it has nothing to do with my fan shroud flaps or air cleaner preheat flap.
This weekend I am going to try to remove the fuel tank and see if anything is trapping the outlet pipe-- maybe something is in there that is clogging that outlet but it's hard for me to imagine that would ONLY happen after the car is completely warmed up. I am also going to try to find a thermometer, I'll buy the laser one if need be, and check engine oil sump, heat riser, and any other temps I need to. The engine bay is getting SO HOT, that it's hard for me to believe it is just the cooling fan "lugging" from the low idle. I can't imagine fixing that issue magically bringing the engine bay temps down to a significantly lower level. This afternoon when I got home I couldn't even touch the decklid handle for more than a couple seconds.
I am completely flummoxed about this whole mess. It is hard to not be able to figure this out. I desperately wish someone else could look at this in person.



the left turn into the driveway issue indicates the carb float level isn't right..a severe vacuum leak causes a lean burn condition,raising engine heat dramatically..where could an occasional large vacuum leak appear and disappear? at the autostick clutch control circuit..doh,the only time you listen is when I was fucking with you about the shepherds hook..disassemble and clean the autostick valve, make sure the plunger slides smoothly
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