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Christopher Schimke
Samba Member
Joined: August 03, 2005
Posts: 5395
Location: PNW
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 Posted: Sun Jul 24, 2016 2:27 pm Post subject: Re: urethane vs rubber suspension bushings |
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| pushkick wrote: |
is there a video for installation of the powerflex bushings for the lca or rta?
or any urethane lca or rta bushings? |
I'm not aware of any video, but the installation is really simple. If you look at the bushings, will see that the two halves of the bushing are hat shaped and there is a metal sleeve. These three components make up the bushing for each location.
Once the old bushings are removed, you add a small amount of grease to the outside each bushing, then tap into the hole in the control arm. Once both halves are in place, you grease them really well and insert the inner sleeve into the bushings. That's it! You are ready to reinstall the arm.
_________________
"Sometimes you have to build a box to think outside of." - Bruce (not Springsteen)
*Custom wheel hardware for Audi/VW, Porsche and Mercedes wheels - Urethane Suspension Bushings*
T3Technique.com or contact me at [email protected] |
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furrylittleotter
Samba Member
Joined: May 19, 2008
Posts: 1506
Location: West Seattle
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| Posted: Wed Sep 07, 2016 10:36 am Post subject: Re: urethane vs rubber suspension bushings |
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| furrylittleotter wrote: |
I replaced a bunch of bushes with new "quality" rubber (oem?) and they failed in very short order. They definitely did not last 30 years. So I put in urethane by default.
I pray my van can 60,000 km between squeaks.
A guy can dream.
Neil2 |
My dream has ended.
My front end is squeaking from every orifice including the brand new "Anti-Sway Bar" I just installed using as much suggested (and included) grease as was humanly possible.
I am extremely dissapointed by this as i thought I was finally ready to buy an eexpensive alignment and end work on the suspension for a while having replaced every bushing, all shocks, fabbed a rear spring setup, etc. etc. years of work and a fair amount of cheddar in upgrades including every possible upgrade from vendors.
It looks like my options now are ;
1. Dissassemble every bushing joint, re-lube the same way that just failed in short order and get said expensive alignment
or:
2. Disassemble and add zerks, grooves and whatever else I can conjure to hold the grease in.
Needless to say I truly have better things to do to my van and am unhappy with this squeaky development.
It sucks just about as bad as the replacement rubber failing in short order.
I have no doubt my fellow sambanistas will line up to tell me their front end with new bushings is perfect, but hey, this is mine, and its not.
I did the job exactly as was suggested and will have to devise a new plan.
Neil2  |
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Christopher Schimke
Samba Member
Joined: August 03, 2005
Posts: 5395
Location: PNW
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| Posted: Wed Sep 07, 2016 10:53 am Post subject: Re: urethane vs rubber suspension bushings |
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Neil, I'm really bummed to hear this and I want to do everything that I can to help you solve this.
I do realize that the squeaking that you currently have is truly there, but I can also tell you that it is possible to have the urethane bushings be quiet for thousands and thousands of miles. I know this because I run them on my own rigs and have never had a peep of a problem and I have reports from customers that claim the same success. My point is that just because you are having a squeaking issue now does not necessarily mean that you have to live with it or move on to some other bushing.
If you want to give me a call/email, I'd be happy to try to help you figure this out.
_________________
"Sometimes you have to build a box to think outside of." - Bruce (not Springsteen)
*Custom wheel hardware for Audi/VW, Porsche and Mercedes wheels - Urethane Suspension Bushings*
T3Technique.com or contact me at [email protected] |
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Steve M.
Samba Member
Joined: July 30, 2013
Posts: 6834
Location: Fort Lauderdale, Fl.
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| Posted: Wed Sep 07, 2016 11:00 am Post subject: Re: urethane vs rubber suspension bushings |
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I've got the urethane bushings from T3 and no squeaks, I haven't the high mileage on them yet. A major difference from before with the old rubber squeakers!
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There are seven days in a week. Someday is not one of them. |
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61Scout
Samba Member
Joined: November 06, 2011
Posts: 1297
Location: Shoreline/Yakima WA
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| Posted: Wed Sep 07, 2016 11:33 am Post subject: Re: urethane vs rubber suspension bushings |
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| furrylittleotter wrote: |
My dream has ended.
My front end is squeaking from every orifice including the brand new "Anti-Sway Bar" I just installed using as much suggested (and included) grease as was humanly possible.
I am extremely dissapointed by this as i thought I was finally ready to buy an eexpensive alignment and end work on the suspension for a while having replaced every bushing, all shocks, fabbed a rear spring setup, etc. etc. years of work and a fair amount of cheddar in upgrades including every possible upgrade from vendors.
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I know you're a pretty sharp guy, but how have you determined the origin of your squeaks exactly? I ask because squeaks and rattles can be some of the most difficult things to diagnose. I've spent several days tracking down noises before.
You may have done some/all of what I'm about to write and if so, cool. And not that you're really asking, but here's how I'd approach it... If it were mine, I'd first take out everything inside the van that is not part of the van. No pens, stuff on the dash, camping gear in the back, etc. I'd then secure things like loose seat belts, tape down the cabinet doors, and so on. I'd also remove anything I could from the outside that might be causing noise or rattling/rubbing. Once the van was prepped I'd move on to the underside, looking for any rubbing/abrading. I'd take a close look at things like flex brake lines, the parking brake cables, spare tire clam shell, license plates, and so on. After I checked the van from end to end, I'd then get a friend to rock/work the suspension while I checked underneath. Then I'd go on a test drive with my friend, having them drive while I sat in different seats to see if there were any differences in where I thought the noise was coming from. I'd be sure to take careful note about where I was driving, what the road is like, how fast we were going, if it was raining outside, etc. Keeping an event log of the noise(s) can be helpful sometimes. I also happen to have a tool called "Chassis Ears" which is a device technicians use to pinpoint noises. You can clip on these individual microphones on suspect components and then as you're driving/riding you can change channels on the pickups/microphones to help pinpoint the noise. This is kinda an expensive tool, but you might be able to borrow one or work out a deal with a shop that has one.
Hope this helps. I know noises can be extremely disappointing and frustrating... especially when you have so much time and money invested into a project. I'm confident you'll sort it out though. That's a very generous offer from Christopher to lend his expertise.
And yeah, count me as another van owner who hasn't had any issues. I have around 15K miles and there are zero squeaks.
-Kevin
_________________
1986 Westfalia Weekender Wolfsburg, RJE 2.3
1985 Tin Top, Subie 2.2 + 5MT
Floppy Mirrors no more: http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=653018&highlight=
Remove the front spindle nut with ease: https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=679567&highlight=
Remove the rear wheel bearing housing without messing with the big 46mm nut: https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=679507&highlight=
-Nec Spe, Nec Metu |
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furrylittleotter
Samba Member
Joined: May 19, 2008
Posts: 1506
Location: West Seattle
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| Posted: Wed Sep 07, 2016 10:34 pm Post subject: Re: urethane vs rubber suspension bushings |
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So I spent the day taking apart the front end and re-greasing the poly bits.
The original grease was practically non existent.
Tried to use the swaybar mount zerks and it just splooged out of the side closest to the zerks so I jammed the grease needle where I could.
Yay poly bushings!
Neil2 |
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j_dirge
Samba Member
Joined: August 08, 2007
Posts: 4641
Location: Twain Harte, CA
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| Posted: Thu Sep 08, 2016 7:15 am Post subject: Re: urethane vs rubber suspension bushings |
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| furrylittleotter wrote: |
Yay poly bushings!
Neil2 |
Bummer man...
I don't have any squeaks from poly.. but I don't have all poly.. Still use rubber in some places. Lower control arms, RCAs, sway bar drop link lowers.. all rubber
I wonder what the prime culprits for the squeaks are?
UCAs?
sway bars? mounts, ends, drops?
RCAs?
Maybe my van just rattles and belches so much I don;t even notice.
_________________
-89 GL Westy, SVX.. finally.
-57 pan f/g buggy with a 67 pancake Type 3 "S"
"Jimi Hendrix owned one. Richard Nixon did not"
-Grand Tour, Season 1, episodes 4 and 5
| danfromsyr wrote: |
those are straight line runs with light weight race cars for only 1/4mile at a time..
not pushing a loaded brick up a mountain pass with a family of 4+ inside expecting to have an event free vacation..
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furrylittleotter
Samba Member
Joined: May 19, 2008
Posts: 1506
Location: West Seattle
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| Posted: Thu Sep 08, 2016 8:19 am Post subject: Re: urethane vs rubber suspension bushings |
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| j_dirge wrote: |
Maybe my van just rattles and belches so much I don;t even notice. |
I'm pretty sure you would've noticed. It was an extreme amount of groaning.
Based on my current experience I believe rubber would be a better choice for me if it lasted like the original rubber did.
Unfortunately, it doesn't.
Ce la vie.
Neil2 |
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jacob.
Samba Member
Joined: August 10, 2009
Posts: 802
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| Posted: Thu Sep 08, 2016 9:24 am Post subject: Re: urethane vs rubber suspension bushings |
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| furrylittleotter wrote: |
| j_dirge wrote: |
Maybe my van just rattles and belches so much I don;t even notice. |
I'm pretty sure you would've noticed. It was an extreme amount of groaning.
Based on my current experience I believe rubber would be a better choice for me if it lasted like the original rubber did.
Unfortunately, it doesn't.
Ce la vie.
Neil2 |
Haven't seen it asked, maybe I overlooked it...What kind of grease did you/are you using?
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| RCB wrote: |
| jacob gets razzed a lot cause he has the only GEX engine thats lasted longer than half an oil change. |
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furrylittleotter
Samba Member
Joined: May 19, 2008
Posts: 1506
Location: West Seattle
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| Posted: Thu Sep 08, 2016 10:48 am Post subject: Re: urethane vs rubber suspension bushings |
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The "Which grease are you using" question usually leads to the "Which grease is best"' question which people have debated since man ( or woman?) first mixed oil with thickener and produced the first batch.
I've done an obsessive amount of research on the topic and the consensus is: no one has a damn clue what's best.
Graphite impregnation seems like a good idea. Barring that, reapplying seems the only realistic path forward.
In my case, I used what the retailers suggested, and now I'm using something different. The first one seemed greasy enough, the new one is unbelievably hateful.
Had to soak my tools in acetone to remove it.
Thank God I had a brief moment of clarity and gloved up before applying. 
We'll see what happens. 
Neil2 |
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jacob.
Samba Member
Joined: August 10, 2009
Posts: 802
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| Posted: Fri Sep 09, 2016 7:22 am Post subject: Re: urethane vs rubber suspension bushings |
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Perhaps a better question would be "which grease have the people used who haven't experienced any squeaking after several years of driving?"
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| RCB wrote: |
| jacob gets razzed a lot cause he has the only GEX engine thats lasted longer than half an oil change. |
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furrylittleotter
Samba Member
Joined: May 19, 2008
Posts: 1506
Location: West Seattle
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| Posted: Fri Sep 09, 2016 8:31 am Post subject: Re: urethane vs rubber suspension bushings |
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Ya know, these vans are kinda funny, Mine has taught me a lot. Its amazing how you can think something is one way, then you delve a little further and find your whole reality changes.
For example: When I put blocks on my rear springs, I thought "Changed height, all is well, move on"
It wasn't until several years later that I learned I had lifted the van so high my rear arms only had .43inches of downward travel before the shocks were maxed out.
Thats not very much.
I have since corrected that issue, but it is a great example of the muiltitude of variables and how unaware we may be of what is actually going on in our vans.
Yes a few people have mentioned they have not had squeaking, thats true.
But the internet is chocked full of people that have had plenty of squeaking.
If you take the poly bushing and put grease on it, it is very obvious none is absorbed, so for it to come off is the most natural thing in the world, add in the fact that it is constantly sprayed with water and dust as well as rubbing on other components and it becomes pretty clear everything is against you.
Recently I changed my springs in rear and all 4 shocks.
I did a lot of online research and found that while opinions on shocks and springs vary widely, most people wanted stiffer springs, and thought they were happier with stiffer springs. (I say "thought" because I have a theory that if they took the "Pepsi Challenge" with their springs they might have a very different opinion)
My situation was that my rear barely moved so stiffer springs were the last thing I wanted.
I fitted softer springs, longer shocks in rear and new shocks up front and Now it rides fantastic.
Then the squeaking became decidedly worse.
I say all this to say: who knows what is going on with other peoples vans? If they fitted poly bushings have they also fitted stiffer springs and different valved shocks? How much is their suspension actually moving? Where do they live? how do they drive? Have they ever taken the bushings back apart and inspected them? have they reported if any grease is left? Have they reported what grease they used?
There are so many variables here that are practically impossible to define.
I can say that from what I have seen, if your suspension actually articulates, re-applying grease will probably be required.
I can also say the zerks on the sway bar did not appear to work in that process, but the needle adaptor did. Not knocking the product, just sharing my experience, and I mention it because I had thought to add more zeerks, but since I found the existing zerks did not appear to actually work, adding more did not seem like a particularly useful idea.
Now if a zerk led to grease grooves, that might be a different story, I don't know, but I know it is an option on some bushings that are available.
Neil2 |
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Guybrush
Samba Member
Joined: August 08, 2015
Posts: 453
Location: Arizona
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| Posted: Fri Sep 09, 2016 11:21 am Post subject: Re: urethane vs rubber suspension bushings |
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Not on a Vanagon, but last year I redid all the front end bushings (all of them) in my Volvo 240 with Powerflex urethane and I used this lube:
https://www.ipdusa.com/products/7399/100788-aqualube-sway-bar-grease
Not a squeak so far. I had also put in a thicker sway bar with urethan bushings and I believe the blue grease is still showing where it squirted out of the bushings on installation.
As far as I can tell, it's similar to the Accrolube that came with my T3 anti sway bar, but perhaps a bit thicker, I'm not sure. Probably a bit pricey for the amount. I'm going to order some of that red CV grease next.
Since I had some of that lube left, that is what I just used on the Powerflex steering rack bushings. The grease that came with the bushings makes me think of Neosporin... |
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nestorwest
Samba Member
Joined: May 04, 2020
Posts: 5
Location: Colorado
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| Posted: Sat Aug 21, 2021 1:24 am Post subject: Re: urethane vs rubber suspension bushings |
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Thought this looked like a good addition to the squeaking issue.
How to Fix Polyurethane Bushing Squeak Permanently:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UbgEvh-rSl4 |
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holdthewind2
Samba Member
Joined: October 17, 2015
Posts: 86
Location: The Gorge
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| Posted: Sat Aug 21, 2021 12:38 pm Post subject: Re: urethane vs rubber suspension bushings |
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^^^ very nice,
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89 Syncro Westfalia
90 Tristar Syncro |
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Christopher Schimke
Samba Member
Joined: August 03, 2005
Posts: 5395
Location: PNW
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| Posted: Sat Aug 21, 2021 12:53 pm Post subject: Re: urethane vs rubber suspension bushings |
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| holdthewind2 wrote: |
| ^^^ very nice, |
Except...that method doesn't really work all that well. The issue is the grease. To keep urethane bushings quiet you need grease that does not emulsify with water and does not wash out. Not very many greases have these qualities, which is why I came up with Bushing Snot. It's EXTREMELY resistant to water washout. It's so resistant to water that it's nearly impossible to wash off your hands. You have to break it down with solvent before it will wash out/off.
_________________
"Sometimes you have to build a box to think outside of." - Bruce (not Springsteen)
*Custom wheel hardware for Audi/VW, Porsche and Mercedes wheels - Urethane Suspension Bushings*
T3Technique.com or contact me at [email protected] |
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skills@eurocarsplus
Samba Peckerhead
Joined: January 01, 2007
Posts: 16903
Location: sticksville, ct.
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| Posted: Sat Aug 21, 2021 1:17 pm Post subject: Re: urethane vs rubber suspension bushings |
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| Christopher Schimke wrote: |
| It's EXTREMELY resistant to water washout. It's so resistant to water that it's nearly impossible to wash off your hands. You have to break it down with solvent before it will wash out/off. |
i can second this. i don't see how the tape wouldn't fold upon installation. i mean there is a lot of "squeeze out" of the grease when you shove them in the bore.
i think another thing people fail to do is have a PERFECT bore in terms of being clean. same with the bolts that pass thru the sleeves
anyway, i had to email Christopher to find out WTF to use to wipe the bushing snot off. brake clean/carb clean/lacquer thinner/acetone did NOT touch the stuff one bit. basically kerosene/diesel finally broke it down.
i highly recommend the bushing snot. it's pretty evil shit 
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| gprudenciop wrote: |
my reason for switching to subaru is my german car was turning chinese so i said fuck it and went japanese....... |
| Jake Raby wrote: |
| Thanks for the correction. I used to be a nice guy, then I ruined it by exposing myself to the public. |
| Brian wrote: |
| Also the fact that people are agreeing with Skills, it's a turn of events for samba history |
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djkeev
Samba Moderator
Joined: September 30, 2007
Posts: 32690
Location: Reading Pennsylvania
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calo1956
Samba Member
Joined: April 18, 2011
Posts: 708
Location: long Island new york
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| Posted: Sat Aug 21, 2021 3:50 pm Post subject: Re: urethane vs rubber suspension bushings |
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Have you bought rubber these days, it sucks, yea the supposed German rubber, may last a couple of years,( MY first hand experience) Yea the original was great, and lasted 30 yrs, the current offer of replacement, crap...
I installed this in 2015, you decide. I have a full set of power flex , just havent got around to installing yet because Ill strip and paint everything.
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Enjoy the ride....
72 bug
80 westfalia |
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Crankey
Samba Member
Joined: July 11, 2004
Posts: 2661
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| Posted: Sun Aug 22, 2021 10:18 am Post subject: Re: urethane vs rubber suspension bushings |
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My urethane dosn't squeek. I like them all so far.
My only concern is I have a couple pair of sneakers with molded urethane soles that have hardened and become slick, and crack if you bend them.
Another urethane thing I have is 1/8" cord you make drive belt with. After around 15 years this belting sort of melts. It starts to feel oily and then starts to disintegrate.
No idea how old the shoes are and I assume there's a variety of urethane chemistry variations too.
I doubt very much they'll fail suddenly, sure they'll last many years longer than a wbx water pump, plus they come with all the nice stainless steel metal sleeves and whatnot so overall the cost is justified. I'd totally do it again and will get more rubber swapped out on the rear end over the next 12 months or so.
If I need to replace the urethane I'll be glad I still own the vehicle and probably glad I'm still alive and capable of driving. |
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