The quest for better brakes

[scott s]

I need better brakes. The stock '63 drums are woefully inadequate with the 190HP 2,276 and close ratio Berg 5 speed.

Years ago, I had a set of 356A brakes that I stupidly sold. Porsche 356 stuff has gotten crazy expensive since then.
Discs for the front are an obvious answer, but there's the snowball effect.... Wide 5 disc widen the track, which means I need a narrowed beam. If I get a narrowed beam, I'll probably want to swap out the stock shocks (which work fine and provide a smooth ride with the current cut-and-turned beam).

Then there's still the rear to deal with. I like the idea of T3 rears, but they've also gotten hard to find and I could probably get rear discs for the same money.

Then, I start thinking about the Ghia style discs that are 4-lug (an absolute No-Go on this car) but can be had in Porsche pattern. They don't widen the track (I don't think), but any money I save on not getting a beam would be spent on new Porsche pattern wheels.

A dual circuit master and new braided hoses are a given, no matter which route I take.


I've had this car for over twenty years but I've been out of the VW scene for a while. Can you talk me through the most cost effective (notice I didn't say "cheapest", necessarily) wide five brake upgrades? Disc/disc? Disc/Drum? Porsche 356? (I really like the idea of the big 356 drums, but whoa, Nelly....the cost...)
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Nothing screams "poor workmanship" like wrinkles in the duct tape.

[runamoc]

[Rome]

You have a really impressive Beetle. Is the color Ruby red? From where did you buy your red sunroof cover?

There is now a front disc kit that has zero offset, but it is only for stock-height spindles so that it might not be what you want because it appears your car is slightly lowered- http://vwparts.aircooled.net/0-Offset-Wide-5-Disc-Brake-Kit-1949-65-Link-Pin-T1-p/401498.htm

Same vendor also sells "super stopper" rear brake shoes which have more aggressive material compared to stock replacement.

VW Things had wider rear drums than even a '67 Beetle and still kept the wide 5 bolt pattern. I don't know if such a drum would properly fit onto your '63 rear axle shaft ends so that you could still fit the stock large 36mm nut. If so, you'd then need to find the Thing rear brake shoes and hope the shoes' tangs fit into the '63 shoe retaining bolt slots.

How about aftermarket wide-5 front discs and Porsche 356 A or B rear drums?

[EVfun]

First, you should take stock of the tires you are running. If the fronts are quite a bit narrower than the back then increasing front braking is not going to help much. You will just lock them prematurely.

You could swap to Thing brakes in the back. The drums would have to have the snout shortened if you are running short spline axles. Thing brakes are 1968-1979 Beetle rear brakes with different drums. They share Beetle wheel cylinders, brake hardware, and shoes (40mm wide shoes instead of 30mm wide used on earlier Beetles.) The drums will increase the track width. You would need '68 up Beetle or Thing backing plates as the wider shoes don't fit on early backing plates.
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[txoval]

If you don't have lowered spindles, go the Aircooled zero offset front disc kit.

Swap rear pads as suggested above...you'll be amazed at the difference with front discs...

[Slimwonder]

Don't buy anything with the name empi!!

Look at a CSP. German made and far superior to the Chinese junk sold here in the US

http://www.csp-shop.com/cgi-bin/cshop2/front/shop_...0&all=

[scott s]

[scott s]

[scott s]

Dang it! The zero offset brakes are out of stock with no ETA for restocking.
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Nothing screams "poor workmanship" like wrinkles in the duct tape.

[Bryan67]

I`ve read that the non dropped spindle brakes can be modified to work on stock spindles. And you may not need different shocks if you change the beam. That depends on how much lower you would make your car over where it sits now. But I really think that given the money you have spent on your car already, a 2" narrowed beam and a wide five 4 wheel disc brake conversion shouldn`t be a problem. And would be the best way to go.
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If you`re going to do something, do it right.

[runamoc]

[txoval]

Here you go...AC Industries are good kits

http://www.socalautoparts.com/product_info.php/ind...05-p-13591

Or

http://www.kustom1warehouse.net/Zero_offset_front_...t5x205.htm

[Slimwonder]

https://www2.cip1.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=C31%2D499%2D165%2D5130ZO

You have a nice looking car why would you even consider Chinese made brakes? Go German. Yea more money but far superior. What's a bit more $$ when you clearly have a high $$ car

Zero offset too

You can get a kit for the rear too if you want to rip your face off under braking... Although that might be overkill on such a light vehicle running skinny rubber

[scott s]

Are discs up front all for naught if I have the skinny tires?
I built this car years ago and was into the Cal-Look, hence the 145's up front.

I used to have a '70 and I ran the Smart Car tires; 175/55. With Ghia style discs and the 2.0L alloys, it all fit with a stock width BJ beam.

Think I could get away with a similar size tire on the BRM's? These are Flat Four BRM's from probably 20+ years ago. Right now, the beam on the '63 is a stock width kingpin beam.
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Nothing screams "poor workmanship" like wrinkles in the duct tape.

[spanky324]

discs up front really make a difference!

[Slimwonder]

I know plenty of people running 145 with discs including my self. (Porsche 944 Brembos). Let's face it you know you have skinnys so it's not going to handle any better with discs just a better peddle feel and positive braking unlike drums which are altogether crap and full of fade. New master cylinder is a must.

The dry yields and nice positive braking experience but the wet is somewhat lethal with skinnys. And I haven't got a power plant like you have. A smart head and driving style is needed in the rain for sure

The whole 145 or 175 smart tyre is a massive debate. The look of the smarts arnt very cal look. But are a better tyre. It's all down to what you decide.

[scott s]

Thanks, Slim.... useful information. The skinny '63 drums are downright scary at times.
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Nothing screams "poor workmanship" like wrinkles in the duct tape.

[Slimwonder]

No problems. So many people just settle for poor quality EMPI or similar systems because they try and cut corners. Braking isn't one area that I'd skimp on. I've worked in the industry and you wouldn't believe how many faulty parts/bad or even non fitting parts go out in those kits is untrue.

If you were swapping out the BRMs for Porsche there are few good guys on here who make pretty awesome kits using Wilwood Calipers and discs.

Good luck with whatever you decide.

[slalombuggy]

[bluebus86]

I am wondering for a Stock Drum Bug, who has the best brake shoe friction material?


Surely some types are better than others, with trade offs in cold braking, cost, wear of material, wear of drum, noise, etc...



Is there a race high performance brake shoe available?
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