| Author |
Message |
curtp07
Samba Member
Joined: November 28, 2007
Posts: 874
Location: Mass
|
 Posted: Wed Apr 20, 2016 2:14 pm Post subject: Re: Engine fire, even after everything is done right |
 |
|
First thing I did with the new bus was a Blazecut install. Could be the best $90 I'll ever spend.
Sounds like I should also replace the CSV. Ordering one tonight.
_________________
Subaru |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
SGKent 
Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2007
Posts: 41031
Location: Citrus Heights CA (Near Sacramento)
|
| Posted: Wed Apr 20, 2016 3:35 pm Post subject: Re: Engine fire, even after everything is done right |
|
|
| curtp07 wrote: |
First thing I did with the new bus was a Blazecut install. Could be the best $90 I'll ever spend.
Sounds like I should also replace the CSV. Ordering one tonight.
|
Interesting system. From research - melts to disburse at 248F, and dumps a Halon like chemical to put out a fire. The only question in my mind is on a hot windless day of 110F - 115F in say Phoenix, when a 250F degree bus engine with 400F heads sits, would temps rise above 248F above the engine? Anyone infared gun over the engine?
_________________
“Most people don’t know what they’re doing, and a lot of them are really good at it.” - George Carlin |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
airschooled
Air-Schooled
Joined: April 04, 2012
Posts: 12729
Location: on a bike ride somewhere
|
| Posted: Wed Apr 20, 2016 3:43 pm Post subject: Re: Engine fire, even after everything is done right |
|
|
| aerosurfer wrote: |
| Wildthings wrote: |
| Not sure what would happen if you got the plugs reversed between the CSV and the TTS? You would still need power to the system for the CSV to actuate though. |
After I wrote it all out and reread it that was a thought. AAR plugged into CSV and AAR didn't power close and ambient heat didn't get warm enough for it to close. Solves both rich and lean conditions.
|
AAR being open all the time gives you 95% function of cracking the throttle open a bit. It does not alter mixture in the drastic numbers you are seeing. (The only difference is the lack of vacuum advance that the throttle opening would give you. Insignificant for the query here.)
How much of your engine did you remove, inspect, and reinstall? I ask because my bus has a painted rear end and slight smoke residue in the engine compartment… Much of my CSV and AAR wiring harness has also been redone by someone who cared, but didn't wrap it up like Kyle would have.
Last week my insanely lean idle symptoms were found to be related to a burnt breather tower, letting in copious air into the intake. Completely invisible until I physically removed the valve from the breather can. The top of it looked brand new from either hatch. 
Can we PLEASE see pictures of your old CSV, with the fuel lines GENTLY removed? Your comment on the hose clamp being directly on one of the bulbs in the line concerns me.
Keep up the good work!
Robbie
_________________
Learn how your vintage VW works. And why it doesn't!
One-on-one tech help for your Volkswagen:
www.airschooled.com |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Clatter
Samba Member
Joined: September 24, 2003
Posts: 7561
Location: Santa Cruz
|
| Posted: Wed Apr 20, 2016 7:26 pm Post subject: Re: Engine fire, even after everything is done right |
|
|
YOU DON"T NEED THE CSV!!!
I keep saying it and saying it!
No idea which arctic country would need one, but I have started in Colorado, at 7600 elevation, for years on the coldest winter mornings without.
Unplug your CSV, and start it cold on a freezing morning, and report back.
Tell me it didn't fire right up..
Now we have _another_ reason to not run one! 
_________________
Bus Motor Build
What’s That Noise?!? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Amskeptic
Samba Member
Joined: October 18, 2002
Posts: 8568
Location: All Across The Country
|
| Posted: Wed Apr 20, 2016 7:47 pm Post subject: Re: Engine fire, even after everything is done right |
|
|
| Clatter wrote: |
YOU DON"T NEED THE CSV!!!
I keep saying it and saying it!
No idea which arctic country would need one, but I have started in Colorado, at 7600 elevation, for years on the coldest winter mornings without.
Unplug your CSV, and start it cold on a freezing morning, and report back.
Tell me it didn't fire right up..
Now we have _another_ reason to not run one! |
Clatter, YOU don't need the cold start valve. You have personal anecdotal proof that you don't need it, but that does not generalize to everyone else.
The reasons for your good fortune may be many, but any correctly set-up and adjusted L-Jet engine is too lean to start when cold without it.
So let me ask you, just as a possible insight, what was your fuel economy up there at 7,600 feet where everybody's sea-level-adjusted VW engine is a rich pig at start-up.
Colin
_________________
www.itinerant-air-cooled.com |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
aerosurfer
Samba Member
Joined: March 25, 2012
Posts: 1602
Location: Indianapolis, IN
|
| Posted: Wed Apr 20, 2016 8:37 pm Post subject: Re: Engine fire, even after everything is done right |
|
|
| asiab3 wrote: |
| aerosurfer wrote: |
| Wildthings wrote: |
| Not sure what would happen if you got the plugs reversed between the CSV and the TTS? You would still need power to the system for the CSV to actuate though. |
After I wrote it all out and reread it that was a thought. AAR plugged into CSV and AAR didn't power close and ambient heat didn't get warm enough for it to close. Solves both rich and lean conditions.
|
AAR being open all the time gives you 95% function of cracking the throttle open a bit. It does not alter mixture in the drastic numbers you are seeing. (The only difference is the lack of vacuum advance that the throttle opening would give you. Insignificant for the query here.)
How much of your engine did you remove, inspect, and reinstall? I ask because my bus has a painted rear end and slight smoke residue in the engine compartment… Much of my CSV and AAR wiring harness has also been redone by someone who cared, but didn't wrap it up like Kyle would have.
Last week my insanely lean idle symptoms were found to be related to a burnt breather tower, letting in copious air into the intake. Completely invisible until I physically removed the valve from the breather can. The top of it looked brand new from either hatch.
Can we PLEASE see pictures of your old CSV, with the fuel lines GENTLY removed? Your comment on the hose clamp being directly on one of the bulbs in the line concerns me.
Keep up the good work!
Robbie |
As you wish...
I can see that there is slightly more melted and charred plastic on the inlet nipple side, but no cracks or fractures. It is wiggly a bit as stated before. I was asked on another board about trying to cut it open to have a look at the internals of the CSV. I don't have anything to cut with enough precision to not completely destroy the inside in process. I removed inspected the breather for just that kind of damage, but thankfully there was none
_________________
Rebuild your own FI Harness..My Harness
77 Westy 2.0L Rockin and Rolling Resto!
72 Sportsmobile (sold)
79 Tran$porter... Parts car money machine (gone) |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Clatter
Samba Member
Joined: September 24, 2003
Posts: 7561
Location: Santa Cruz
|
| Posted: Wed Apr 20, 2016 10:56 pm Post subject: Re: Engine fire, even after everything is done right |
|
|
| Amskeptic wrote: |
| Clatter wrote: |
YOU DON"T NEED THE CSV!!!
I keep saying it and saying it!
No idea which arctic country would need one, but I have started in Colorado, at 7600 elevation, for years on the coldest winter mornings without.
Unplug your CSV, and start it cold on a freezing morning, and report back.
Tell me it didn't fire right up..
Now we have _another_ reason to not run one! |
Clatter, YOU don't need the cold start valve. You have personal anecdotal proof that you don't need it, but that does not generalize to everyone else.
The reasons for your good fortune may be many, but any correctly set-up and adjusted L-Jet engine is too lean to start when cold without it.
So let me ask you, just as a possible insight, what was your fuel economy up there at 7,600 feet where everybody's sea-level-adjusted VW engine is a rich pig at start-up.
Colin |
Haven't lived in CO for a while now..
Don't remember my fuel economy, but the last few years of playing with L-Jet I still haven't had a need.
Have had a lot of different tunes on the thing; haven't had one of those high-CHT uber-lean ones in a while.
Used to, though.
One of those 14.7:1 closed-loop O2-sensor tunes still didn't need a CSV..
All I'm saying is for people to try it.
Try It!
(There, said it again).. 
The CSV for me was the spawn of Satan.
Traveling from sea level (Set up correctly on a 4-gas)
The CSV would flood my motor on cold-start.
Until I learned to clear it by unplugging the AFM,
It stranded me on multiple occasions.
Never been a fan of chokes on carbs that much, either.
Cold-starts are hard enough on a motor without having the cylinder walls washed down with raw fuel, IMHO.
For years, I had the CSV just un-plugged.
There was this fear that the day would come when it would be needed.
Day never came.
Try it.
Seriously.
Leave it just un-plugged, in case I'm wrong.
Tell me you tried it, and it wouldn't start, or started hard..
Colin, you are the perfect guy to test my theory.
You drive all different places, and are plenty smart enough to deal with whatever.
Leave your CSV un-plugged for a bit; prove me wrong.
Your cylinder walls will thank you for it.
I would love to have somebody debunk me on this.
_________________
Bus Motor Build
What’s That Noise?!? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
SGKent
Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2007
Posts: 41031
Location: Citrus Heights CA (Near Sacramento)
|
| Posted: Thu Apr 21, 2016 5:45 am Post subject: Re: Engine fire, even after everything is done right |
|
|
CSV at 7600 ' would not be needed simply because the air is leaner so the mixture runs richer by definition. That is why pilots start full rich and lean as they climb in altitude.
_________________
“Most people don’t know what they’re doing, and a lot of them are really good at it.” - George Carlin |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
chastings
Samba Member
Joined: January 06, 2010
Posts: 171
Location: Rapid City, SD
|
| Posted: Sat Apr 23, 2016 7:44 pm Post subject: Re: Engine fire, even after everything is done right |
|
|
| Whats the best way to clean it up? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
aerosurfer
Samba Member
Joined: March 25, 2012
Posts: 1602
Location: Indianapolis, IN
|
| Posted: Sat Apr 23, 2016 8:13 pm Post subject: Re: Engine fire, even after everything is done right |
|
|
I used a shop vac, air hose, some water. Been scraping any clumps loose. Remove and reapply dielectric grease to all connections.
Once I get the FI issues all sorted I'll likely pull the motor again later this year and give it another deep cleaning and get all the hard to reach spots
_________________
Rebuild your own FI Harness..My Harness
77 Westy 2.0L Rockin and Rolling Resto!
72 Sportsmobile (sold)
79 Tran$porter... Parts car money machine (gone) |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
aerosurfer
Samba Member
Joined: March 25, 2012
Posts: 1602
Location: Indianapolis, IN
|
| Posted: Mon May 16, 2016 8:41 pm Post subject: Re: Engine fire, even after everything is done right |
|
|
To close out this thread, I made my own FI Harness I also found a broken wire on my series resistor, so that explains (partially at least) why I was running rough when I got it started earlier. That part was replaced
The new, homemade, harness was a success and the bus is back and running strong. I document with pictures here:
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=8082848#8082848
Thanks for all the support and advice. I still need to test for any electrical leaks and look into the Blaze Cut system.
_________________
Rebuild your own FI Harness..My Harness
77 Westy 2.0L Rockin and Rolling Resto!
72 Sportsmobile (sold)
79 Tran$porter... Parts car money machine (gone)
Last edited by aerosurfer on Mon Jun 06, 2016 2:43 pm; edited 1 time in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Globespotter
Samba Member
Joined: February 16, 2012
Posts: 1770
Location: Newmarket, ON
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Tbob
Samba Member
Joined: May 26, 2007
Posts: 417
Location: Pensacola, Fl.
|
| Posted: Sat May 21, 2016 8:08 am Post subject: Re: Engine fire, even after everything is done right |
|
|
When I hear of engine fires, I wonder what actually ignited the fire. We know that a fire takes fuel and air and some sort of ignition. Was it fuel leaking on a hot manifold? Was it a spark from the 12 volt system? Or a spark from the secondary system? My point is this, if you can somehow minimize the co-mingiling of these 3 elements, you can minimize fires. The mantra here on the Samba is "change your fuel lines" as our solution to the problem of engine fires. And change our fuel lines we do. And as the original poster said, he did it with the right stuff, the right way. And yet he, and also others, have fires. Can we somehow work to keep these 3 components of fire away from each other?
If what causes fires is fuel dripping on hot manifolds can we make shields/shrouds to direct fuel away from the manifolds until we can observe it leaking/weaping? If what causes fires is 12v devices switching on/off, can we isolate them so that the fuel/air vapor never gets ignited by the 12v switching devices? And, if what causes fires is air/fuel vapor being ignited by secondary ignition devices (this is my assumption) then can we seperate them as much as possible?
Vanagons catch fire all the time too. The assumption with those too is that it is fuel hoses. Yet, they have a fuel pressure regulator and a fuel "t" mere inches from the distributor. Any flaw in the fuel system there would seem to be very risky.
I may be off base here, but how about moving all non necessary fuel components out of harms way as much as possible? Fuel pressure regulators dont care that they are not mounted right next to the distributor. Fuel lines and fuel line "t"s can be placed far away from ignition sources as possible. At least to give us a fighting chance until we can find the leak/seep/weep.
_________________
1969 Deluxe, owned since 1973
1973 Westfalia, owned since 1983
1980 Westfalia, watercooled conversion
1985 Westfalia, stock!
1986 Westfakia, Audi I-4 conversion
A couple of trucks and a couple of Jeeps |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Tom Powell
Samba Member
Joined: December 01, 2005
Posts: 4855
Location: Kaneohe
|
| Posted: Sat May 21, 2016 9:09 am Post subject: Re: Engine fire, even after everything is done right |
|
|
| Globespotter wrote: |
Installed my Blazecut today!
|
Consider replacing or repairing that worn and frayed license plate wiring also.
Aloha
tp |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
wcfvw69
Samba Purist
Joined: June 10, 2004
Posts: 13389
Location: Arizona
|
| Posted: Sat May 21, 2016 9:59 am Post subject: Re: Engine fire, even after everything is done right |
|
|
| Tbob wrote: |
When I hear of engine fires, I wonder what actually ignited the fire. We know that a fire takes fuel and air and some sort of ignition. Was it fuel leaking on a hot manifold? Was it a spark from the 12 volt system? Or a spark from the secondary system? My point is this, if you can somehow minimize the co-mingiling of these 3 elements, you can minimize fires. The mantra here on the Samba is "change your fuel lines" as our solution to the problem of engine fires. And change our fuel lines we do. And as the original poster said, he did it with the right stuff, the right way. And yet he, and also others, have fires. Can we somehow work to keep these 3 components of fire away from each other?
If what causes fires is fuel dripping on hot manifolds can we make shields/shrouds to direct fuel away from the manifolds until we can observe it leaking/weaping? If what causes fires is 12v devices switching on/off, can we isolate them so that the fuel/air vapor never gets ignited by the 12v switching devices? And, if what causes fires is air/fuel vapor being ignited by secondary ignition devices (this is my assumption) then can we seperate them as much as possible?
Vanagons catch fire all the time too. The assumption with those too is that it is fuel hoses. Yet, they have a fuel pressure regulator and a fuel "t" mere inches from the distributor. Any flaw in the fuel system there would seem to be very risky.
I may be off base here, but how about moving all non necessary fuel components out of harms way as much as possible? Fuel pressure regulators dont care that they are not mounted right next to the distributor. Fuel lines and fuel line "t"s can be placed far away from ignition sources as possible. At least to give us a fighting chance until we can find the leak/seep/weep. |
My thoughts on engine fires are this-
The majority of times, it's poor preventative maintenance that causes them.
1) Old fuel lines that rupture
2) Nipples that are loose in the carb or fuel pump and pop off
3) Poor electrical wiring or worn out wiring in the engine compartment. We've all seen horribly repaired wiring. Chaffed wires, poor crimp connections, no insulation or missing wire insulation where wires rub because of poor routing.
4) On the fuel injected engines with 30 psi, there's so many potential failure points that can cause fuel to spray on the engine. Again, poor maintenance prevents owners from seeing items about to rupture, break or snap off.
The VW owners who are anal about their preventative maintenance and frequently inspect their engines fuel systems and electrical systems don't catch fire. There are so many VW owners who driven their VW's for decades w/out an engine fire. I'll feel lucky in that I've not incurred one, driving VW's since the early 80's.
_________________
Contact me at [email protected]
Follow me on instagram @sparxwerksllc
Decades of VW and VW parts restoration experience.
The Samba member since 2004.
**Now rebuilding throttle bodies for VW's and Porsche's**
**Restored German Bosch distributors for sale or I can restore yours**
**Restored German Pierburg fuel pumps for sale or I can restore yours**
**Restored Porsche fuel pumps or I can restore yours**
**Restored Porsche distributors or I can restore yours** |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
skills@eurocarsplus
Samba Peckerhead
Joined: January 01, 2007
Posts: 16893
Location: sticksville, ct.
|
| Posted: Sat May 21, 2016 10:48 am Post subject: Re: Engine fire, even after everything is done right |
|
|
I think the o/p had a pretty well sorted bus. I would be willing to suspect that as the engine cooled off, the seal in the CSV gave up and misted the engine with fuel. with any ignition..(points, electronic, etc) there is ALWAYS an open flame, so to speak.
this was just shit luck....
so, when all of the FI stuff is NLA, and you're forced to use this regurgitated fuel system, no fuel line/clamp combo on the planet can save you...lets face it, how many of us go and poke/prod before we hit the key? I don't. I may check the oil monthly but I sure don't go tugging on stuff.
it's just the risk you take using this stuff. either that or go with a modern FI system. I don't care "how much you love your original xxx" if you use them in the stock form with 37+year old hardware, this is the risk you run, period.
either run that risk and build it to 100% stock and never start it, or just sit in the drivers seat and make engine noises
_________________
| gprudenciop wrote: |
my reason for switching to subaru is my german car was turning chinese so i said fuck it and went japanese....... |
| Jake Raby wrote: |
| Thanks for the correction. I used to be a nice guy, then I ruined it by exposing myself to the public. |
| Brian wrote: |
| Also the fact that people are agreeing with Skills, it's a turn of events for samba history |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
airschooled
Air-Schooled
Joined: April 04, 2012
Posts: 12729
Location: on a bike ride somewhere
|
| Posted: Sat May 21, 2016 10:50 am Post subject: Re: Engine fire, even after everything is done right |
|
|
| skills@eurocarsplus wrote: |
| ...sit in the drivers seat and make engine noises... |
We know you secretly do that all winter when the salt is down...
The thing is, most of these components ARE available new, but many of us are too cheap to buy a new CSV.
Robbie
_________________
Learn how your vintage VW works. And why it doesn't!
One-on-one tech help for your Volkswagen:
www.airschooled.com |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
wcfvw69
Samba Purist
Joined: June 10, 2004
Posts: 13389
Location: Arizona
|
| Posted: Sat May 21, 2016 10:58 am Post subject: Re: Engine fire, even after everything is done right |
|
|
| skills@eurocarsplus wrote: |
I think the o/p had a pretty well sorted bus. I would be willing to suspect that as the engine cooled off, the seal in the CSV gave up and misted the engine with fuel. with any ignition..(points, electronic, etc) there is ALWAYS an open flame, so to speak.
this was just shit luck....
so, when all of the FI stuff is NLA, and you're forced to use this regurgitated fuel system, no fuel line/clamp combo on the planet can save you...lets face it, how many of us go and poke/prod before we hit the key? I don't. I may check the oil monthly but I sure don't go tugging on stuff.
it's just the risk you take using this stuff. either that or go with a modern FI system. I don't care "how much you love your original xxx" if you use them in the stock form with 37+year old hardware, this is the risk you run, period.
either run that risk and build it to 100% stock and never start it, or just sit in the drivers seat and make engine noises |
I agree Skills as I think this particular owner just had bad luck. I think my point was the vast majority of VW engine fires are caused by poor preventative maintenance. There's always going to be those "flukes" that cause a random fire. Hell, even new cars catch fire these days.
There's absolutely no way I'd drive a fuel injected bus w/out one of the automatic fire surpression systems for all the reasons you stated.
_________________
Contact me at [email protected]
Follow me on instagram @sparxwerksllc
Decades of VW and VW parts restoration experience.
The Samba member since 2004.
**Now rebuilding throttle bodies for VW's and Porsche's**
**Restored German Bosch distributors for sale or I can restore yours**
**Restored German Pierburg fuel pumps for sale or I can restore yours**
**Restored Porsche fuel pumps or I can restore yours**
**Restored Porsche distributors or I can restore yours** |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Tbob
Samba Member
Joined: May 26, 2007
Posts: 417
Location: Pensacola, Fl.
|
| Posted: Sat May 21, 2016 11:28 am Post subject: Re: Engine fire, even after everything is done right |
|
|
I think that is what concerns me. I hear of enough fires that occur in vans that are maintained, as in the case with the OP. Even if someone seems to do all the right maintenance stuff (new fuel hoses of the right type, ensuring that the slip in carb spigots are tight and safety wired, etc.), we still read of fires. I am wondering whether the fires are ignited by spark or by heat(from a hot manifold, let's say). Whichever, if we can minimize the risk from this source of ignition, can we go further towards our end of minimizing fires in our vans. That is my thought. I think that in the data that I see, just replacing our fuel lines, as valuable as that is, is not all we need to do. I would like to keep the elements of risk as far away from eack other as possible. If it is spark, then I want my fuel lines as far from the distributor as possible. If it is manifold heat, then I think I want to shield the injectors in such a way as to drain the leaking fuel away from the manifold to minimize the possibility of fire.
I can see how easy it would be to move the fuel lines to the front of the engine compartment, away from the distributor. Making shields for other areas might be of value. Just my thoughts
_________________
1969 Deluxe, owned since 1973
1973 Westfalia, owned since 1983
1980 Westfalia, watercooled conversion
1985 Westfalia, stock!
1986 Westfakia, Audi I-4 conversion
A couple of trucks and a couple of Jeeps |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
skills@eurocarsplus
Samba Peckerhead
Joined: January 01, 2007
Posts: 16893
Location: sticksville, ct.
|
| Posted: Sat May 21, 2016 11:35 am Post subject: Re: Engine fire, even after everything is done right |
|
|
there is no way to eliminate the ignition source....be it heat or spark. it's clear that he had a fuel leak. the only way to prevent that is to keep the fuel from leaking. not easy on vintage FI
_________________
| gprudenciop wrote: |
my reason for switching to subaru is my german car was turning chinese so i said fuck it and went japanese....... |
| Jake Raby wrote: |
| Thanks for the correction. I used to be a nice guy, then I ruined it by exposing myself to the public. |
| Brian wrote: |
| Also the fact that people are agreeing with Skills, it's a turn of events for samba history |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
