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Aerindel
Samba Member
Joined: May 30, 2015
Posts: 459
Location: Western Montana
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 Posted: Tue Feb 09, 2016 10:45 pm Post subject: Re: Weber 32 36 advice |
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| Desertstrike86 wrote: |
| Would I need heat risers in sun shiny arizona? I should titled this thread random newbie questions! |
Yes.
The heat risers run at several hundred degrees but are cooled down until they are cool to the touch where they reach the intake. If all that heat is needed just to keep the intake at room temperature ambient heat isn't going to have very much effect wether its 50 or 100.
Even with heat risers AND a hot air intake on a 100º degree day my carb will be slightly cool to the touch. There is a good reason VW designed the engine with both.
_________________
Homemade woods/street, bug out rail. IRS, Balljoint front end. 1967 1600cc DP, Weber 32/36 progressive, tri-mil quiet pack. Rear only cutting brakes.
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=630046 |
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Desertstrike86
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Joined: February 07, 2016
Posts: 68
Location: Lake Havasu AZ
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| Posted: Thu Feb 11, 2016 1:01 pm Post subject: Re: Weber 32 36 advice |
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| So i got her idling... next problem is it spits and sputters when pushing down on the pedal... and it also takes a good 4-5 seconds for it to fall back down to an idle.... ideas? This is not in gear.. just pushing pedal in nuetral |
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Aerindel
Samba Member
Joined: May 30, 2015
Posts: 459
Location: Western Montana
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| Posted: Thu Feb 11, 2016 1:28 pm Post subject: Re: Weber 32 36 advice |
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| Desertstrike86 wrote: |
| So i got her idling... next problem is it spits and sputters when pushing down on the pedal... and it also takes a good 4-5 seconds for it to fall back down to an idle.... ideas? This is not in gear.. just pushing pedal in nuetral |
Hard to say without knowing more about your set up. Did you fix your timing? Are your jets correct? Did you fix your choke? When you rebuilt the carb did you check your float level? Have you checked for air leaks in your intake? confirmed your plug wires are all in the right spots?
If I had to guess just one cause for spitting during acceleration I would say timing, but there are other things that it could be.
Second most likely guess is lack of fuel supply. What kind of fuel pump do you have? Fuel pressure? is your accelerator pump working properly (should be able to see a good teaspoon or so of fuel squirt down your carb when you work the throttle)
I had a problem in mine with vapor lock from a badly designed fuel line. It would idle perfectly but flat out sputter and die when I floored it.
Sorry if it sounds like a lot of questions but without knowing what is right on your engine its hard to figure out what could be wrong.
_________________
Homemade woods/street, bug out rail. IRS, Balljoint front end. 1967 1600cc DP, Weber 32/36 progressive, tri-mil quiet pack. Rear only cutting brakes.
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=630046 |
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Desertstrike86
Samba Member
Joined: February 07, 2016
Posts: 68
Location: Lake Havasu AZ
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| Posted: Thu Feb 11, 2016 7:51 pm Post subject: Re: Weber 32 36 advice |
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| I did get the timing right, i will try and get the jet sizes for ya... float level i did not check when going through it... (carb newb) before the carb rebuild it would have a clean throttle response and wouldnt hang in the higher rpms before coming back to idle... possibly my idle mixture is off? which way is richer? out or in? out is more air or fuel? |
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Desertstrike86
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Joined: February 07, 2016
Posts: 68
Location: Lake Havasu AZ
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| Posted: Thu Feb 11, 2016 8:58 pm Post subject: Re: Weber 32 36 advice |
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heres the idle video for you... doesnt it sound wierd when i give her throttle? didnt used to sound so "tired" until after i did the carb.. but at least i have her idling to i can do my tuning eh? Maybe ill take some more in depth videos of my situation and give you a run down on what i have on the motor.
https://youtu.be/dXHkgdxKAAo |
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Aerindel
Samba Member
Joined: May 30, 2015
Posts: 459
Location: Western Montana
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| Posted: Thu Feb 11, 2016 10:56 pm Post subject: Re: Weber 32 36 advice |
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| Quote: |
I did get the timing right, i will try and get the jet sizes for ya... float level i did not check when going through it... (carb newb) before the carb rebuild it would have a clean throttle response and wouldnt hang in the higher rpms before coming back to idle... possibly my idle mixture is off? which way is richer? out or in? out is more air or fuel?
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The idle screw is just fine tuning, the real mix is set by the idle jet. The screw needs to be in normal range (1.5-2) turns if I remember the spec right. If you have to go further or less to get best idle then the jet size is wrong and the engine won't run properly without the right jet as the mix screw also helps control the way the fuel is atomized.
Out is more fuel.
Have you checked for vacuum leaks? Those will really screw up your ability to tune a carb. Spray some carb cleaner or starter fluid at the various potential leak points. Ends of the throttle shafts, carb to intake gasket, intake to intake manifold boots, intake to head. Any change in RPM indicates a vacuum leak.
A carb is basically a mechanical computer that uses various systems to come up with a best match for proper fuel air mix at a variety of engine speeds.
The only signal it has is the amount of vacuum in your intake system, which is controlled by RPM and throttle position. If you have any leak at all it feeds more air based just on engine demand rather than throttle position....you end up running lean but its not consistent so you can't just adjust for it and you never get proper response from your carb as its always getting a false signal.
_________________
Homemade woods/street, bug out rail. IRS, Balljoint front end. 1967 1600cc DP, Weber 32/36 progressive, tri-mil quiet pack. Rear only cutting brakes.
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=630046 |
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2RL
Samba Member
Joined: May 02, 2010
Posts: 177
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| Posted: Thu Feb 11, 2016 11:59 pm Post subject: Re: Weber 32 36 advice with idle video |
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How long had it been running when you took that video? Sounds like it was running a bit on the rich side to me.
I see no heat risers on that exhaust either ( you really need those with a center mount carburetor despite what some people like to think) that will help a lot. The other thing to check is if the choke was opening up or not since it directly afects the fuel mixture as well which is why I asked my original question. Depending upon how hot it is where you are, the choke can take a while to open. An easy way to check is to pop off the air filter when its running and visually see if its open or not.
Somewhere on this site there's a few pictures of a really good way to setup the heat riser tubes so that they actually work like vw intended it to . a search looking up " heat risers " should get you pointed in the right direction. |
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Desertstrike86
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Joined: February 07, 2016
Posts: 68
Location: Lake Havasu AZ
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| Posted: Fri Feb 12, 2016 7:37 am Post subject: Re: Weber 32 36 advice with idle video |
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| 5 mins... choke is disabled so wide open |
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Aerindel
Samba Member
Joined: May 30, 2015
Posts: 459
Location: Western Montana
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| Posted: Fri Feb 12, 2016 6:00 pm Post subject: Re: Weber 32 36 advice with idle video |
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| Desertstrike86 wrote: |
| 5 mins... choke is disabled so wide open |
Well, then its still cold and unchoked. Its not going to run right no matter what under those conditions. Let it idle 20 minutes and try again.
_________________
Homemade woods/street, bug out rail. IRS, Balljoint front end. 1967 1600cc DP, Weber 32/36 progressive, tri-mil quiet pack. Rear only cutting brakes.
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=630046 |
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Desertstrike86
Samba Member
Joined: February 07, 2016
Posts: 68
Location: Lake Havasu AZ
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| Posted: Fri Feb 12, 2016 9:42 pm Post subject: Re: Weber 32 36 advice with idle video |
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| Damn! !! That big a difference!? Crazy. I'm so used to fuel Injection and cpu controlled motors that this old school stuff is just schoolin me man. |
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Aerindel
Samba Member
Joined: May 30, 2015
Posts: 459
Location: Western Montana
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| Posted: Fri Feb 12, 2016 10:45 pm Post subject: Re: Weber 32 36 advice with idle video |
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Well, just think of it this way, all that cool stuff your ECU does still has to be done on these engines, but instead of a computer you just have a few simple mechanical systems to do it....all of which are disabled on your rail.
Just to go down what we know so far..
Choke...disabled=engine will either run lean when cold or rich when hot.
Heat risers.....missing=intake will be cold
Hot air intake....no=intake will be cold
Float level...???=controls your fuel air mix.
Carb jets....???=controls your fuel air mix
Thermostate flaps....probably not=controls engine temp, engine takes much longer to warm up, and will not even reach normal operating temps in cool weather.
Vacuum advance distributer....no=no load sensing ability.
Almost every control device and sensor that the engine was designed to use is missing. If you think about it, its really impressive it works at all. Its basically just running on what would be limp home mode in a fuel injected car, and unlike a ECU controlled engine there is no computer to try and compensate for all your problems.
Now, you can run without any of this stuff but your never going to get as much power, efficiency, drivability or engine life as if you had them.
_________________
Homemade woods/street, bug out rail. IRS, Balljoint front end. 1967 1600cc DP, Weber 32/36 progressive, tri-mil quiet pack. Rear only cutting brakes.
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=630046 |
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Desertstrike86
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Joined: February 07, 2016
Posts: 68
Location: Lake Havasu AZ
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| Posted: Tue Feb 16, 2016 7:21 pm Post subject: Re: Weber 32 36 advice with idle video |
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ok so the linkage arm that attaches to the main throttle linkage is missing.. where may i find this piece?
and how to wire up the electric choke?
and i think i have a bobcat style exhaust... how do i add heat risers?
thanks again |
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Aerindel
Samba Member
Joined: May 30, 2015
Posts: 459
Location: Western Montana
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| Posted: Tue Feb 16, 2016 8:00 pm Post subject: Re: Weber 32 36 advice with idle video |
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| Quote: |
ok so the linkage arm that attaches to the main throttle linkage is missing.. where may i find this piece?
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Not exactly sure what you mean but you can get almost any part here. Just look it up on the parts diagram and click on the link
http://www.carburetion.com/diags/3236DGAVDiaginfo.asp
| Quote: |
and how to wire up the electric choke?
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The usual way is run a wire from the terminal on the choke to the 'hot' terminal on your coil since its nearby, but any circuit that has power when the engine is turned on will work. The electric choke has a bi-metal spring in it that current runs through when you turn on your ignition, as it heats up it expands and opens your choke over 5-8 minutes which in theory matches the speed your engine heats up at. It also has a vacuum piston that opens and closes it based on engine demand so you can still drive while choked.
The choke also has a cam and throttle linkage so that the choke will provide a fast idle when cold and disengage when open so your regular idle comes into play.
Its not a perfect system but it works pretty well.
It probably needs to be adjusted. This is a simple process though. Do this with a cold engine at normal outside temperatures with the choke unplugged and the fast idle screw back all the way out.
Loosen the three screws on the choke spring cover and turn the cover until the choke is just barely closed. Work it a few times to make sure it returns to fully closed. You want it to positively close but with only light spring pressure. Plug it in to a 12v power source and watch it until it stops moving. The choke should slowly move by itself until it is fully open. unplug it and let it cool down, it should return to fully closed. If it doesn't operate this way your choke spring may have rusted out or have some other problem. If your fast idle screw is not back all the way out it may catch on the throttle control when returning to cold position, you can also just open the throttle so its out of the way and the choke should snap closed if its hung up. This is why running the pedal to the floor is part of a normal cold start, it shoots some extra gas into your intake but it also lets the choke properly close all the way.
You also need to adjust the cold idle speed. With a cold engine and choke unplugged start the engine and then crank down the fast idle screw until you get 1200 or so RPM when cold or about 2000 when hot.
If you move the throttle you have to stop the engine, tap the throttle to reset the choke and restart since any throttle movement will disengage the the fast idle if the engine is running wether its warmed up yet or not.
When it works properly the choke will open up as it heats but the idle will stay locked on high until you tap the throttle on a hot engine which should unlock the fast idle and go back to your regular idle.
You usually have to play with it a bit over a few warm/cold cycles to get it just right and you may have to re-adjusted once a season for ambient temp.
If your confused then just play with it a little once its hooked up and you should be able to see how it all works. Its really very simple but hard to describe in words.
As for heat risers, first you need to determine if your intake is made for them. Do you have two 1/2" ports down at the base of the T in your intake?
If you do, its simple, you just run a tube of the appropriate diameter from near your #4 exhaust to near where your exhaust tubes come together (the right way) or just between your #4 and your #2 (the easy way) If you can't weld yourself an muffler shop should be able to do this for you, or you can buy a new exhaust system that comes with the flanges already welded on. (many of them are not drilled out so you will probably have to do that yourself, when I got my rail the heat risers where in place but even though the pervious maker had installed the gaskets he hadn't actually drilled out the port so the risers where doing nothing)
The two gold colored bent tubes are the heat risers the way they are usually set up. They can be done in different ways as long as one end is going from a high pressure place (near a exhaust valve that is opening) to a low pressure area of the exhaust system (near your collector or to a closed exhaust valve)
_________________
Homemade woods/street, bug out rail. IRS, Balljoint front end. 1967 1600cc DP, Weber 32/36 progressive, tri-mil quiet pack. Rear only cutting brakes.
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=630046 |
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Desertstrike86
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Joined: February 07, 2016
Posts: 68
Location: Lake Havasu AZ
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| Posted: Thu Mar 10, 2016 10:33 pm Post subject: Re: Weber 32 36 advice with idle video |
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OK so I have narrowed down my idle issue.... I believe anyway...
So I've got it to where I can get the idle to stay at 700 +/- 50... the problem is... when I blip the throttle.. it always settles back to 1100rpm ... visually it looks like the throttle linkage has returned.. but when I go to pry it fully closed with my hand the idle drops back down... I do have to give it a good turn with my hand... I've got a stout return spring hooked up... but I'm telling ya... you can't see it move when I use my hand to close it but it does drop it down in rpm and holds.
So I'm assuming the butterflies are just slightly open... if the return spring is stout..and the throttle cable has slack... what else should I look for?
If it's too confusing I'll re-write it when I'm not so tired lol...
Thanks all. |
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Aerindel
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Joined: May 30, 2015
Posts: 459
Location: Western Montana
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| Posted: Thu Mar 10, 2016 11:19 pm Post subject: Re: Weber 32 36 advice with idle video |
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| Quote: |
So I'm assuming the butterflies are just slightly open... if the return spring is stout..and the throttle cable has slack... what else should I look for?
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Sounds like your butterflies are sticking a little bit. Look for nicks or burrs around the edges of the brass valves and crud stuck to the inside of the carb throat.
You can take the carb off and hold it up to the light with the butterflies closed and look at the crack where it seals the carb throat, if there is a high spot you should be able to see it and very carefully sand it down.
Its also possible your linkage is loose on your throttle shaft, I had this problem on mine and ended replacing it with one that fit much tighter. You can also hammer on the slot shaped opening in your linkage to expand the metal slightly and then file it to get a tight fit on the flats of your throttle shaft.
The other thing to check is the geometry of your return spring. It may seem strange but I had your same problem and just moving the position of the spring fixed it. My spring was strong but mounted so that in the idle position most of the force wasn't pulling in the right direction. You want the fixed attachment point at right angles to the attachment on the throttle control, or in other words if you take a square and line it up with the throttle shaft and the spring attachment point you want the spring to line up with the other arm of the square when its at idle.
Alternatively, if your idle is consistent. just adjust your idle so the post blip speed is where you want it.
_________________
Homemade woods/street, bug out rail. IRS, Balljoint front end. 1967 1600cc DP, Weber 32/36 progressive, tri-mil quiet pack. Rear only cutting brakes.
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=630046 |
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Desertstrike86
Samba Member
Joined: February 07, 2016
Posts: 68
Location: Lake Havasu AZ
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| Posted: Mon Mar 14, 2016 8:50 pm Post subject: Re: Weber 32 36 advice with idle video |
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ok so heres another video of it somewhat stabilized... but look what happens when i give it gas... actually a tad before i do the idle jumps a tad over 1000. ah hell the idle seems to be all over the place.
is there anything in this video that a good ear can tell whats going on?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iu0tbf0D05Q |
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2RL
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Joined: May 02, 2010
Posts: 177
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| Posted: Mon Mar 14, 2016 9:40 pm Post subject: Re: Weber 32 36 advice with idle video |
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What does it do with the throttle cable disconnected?
It could be something is binding up in the linkage that's holding things open ever so sightly if it has ben ran in sand a lot I would check that all over very closely for problems. |
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Desertstrike86
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Joined: February 07, 2016
Posts: 68
Location: Lake Havasu AZ
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| Posted: Mon Mar 14, 2016 10:02 pm Post subject: Re: Weber 32 36 advice with idle video |
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| accelerator cable is very loose at the moment. so its def not holding it open... and i couldnt imagine putting on a heavier return spring than whats on there now.. and I did angle the spring in a way that will fully close the butterflies. |
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Aerindel
Samba Member
Joined: May 30, 2015
Posts: 459
Location: Western Montana
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| Posted: Tue Mar 15, 2016 4:15 am Post subject: Re: Weber 32 36 advice with idle video |
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After seeing the your latest video I don't think it has anything do with the linkage or butterflies as its not only not returning to idle, its not idling stably.
This all just points back to what I see as your core problem, a bad fuel air mix either caused by the wrong jets, lack of intake heat, and/or a vacuum leak.
Like I said earlier:
| Quote: |
A carb is basically a mechanical computer that uses various systems to come up with a best match for proper fuel air mix at a variety of engine speeds.
The only signal it has is the amount of vacuum in your intake system, which is controlled by RPM and throttle position. If you have any leak at all it feeds more air based just on engine demand rather than throttle position....you end up running lean but its not consistent so you can't just adjust for it and you never get proper response from your carb as its always getting a false signal. |
There are still several critical carb issues that you have not checked as far as I know.
Float Level
Jet Sizes
Vacuum leaks.
You can't effectively work around any of these. If just one of these are off you can mess with your carb forever and it will never ever run right until the core problem is solved.
I know its a pain but you want this thing to run, right? Pull the carb. Measure and adjust the float level to spec. Pull the jets and write down the sizes. It will take a lot less time to do this than what you've probably already put into trying to tune it without the basics.
Read this page on jetting for the 32/36 carb and install the appropriate jets
http://www.aircooled.net/making-weber-progressive-dfev-work-aircooled-vw-engine/
This page really contains all the information you need on setting up this carb.
Once you have the right float level and the right jets put it back on the engine and then test for vacuum leaks and fix any that you find.
Then, set your valves, set your timing, and then and only then is it worthwhile to actually try and tune your carb.
_________________
Homemade woods/street, bug out rail. IRS, Balljoint front end. 1967 1600cc DP, Weber 32/36 progressive, tri-mil quiet pack. Rear only cutting brakes.
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=630046 |
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Desertstrike86
Samba Member
Joined: February 07, 2016
Posts: 68
Location: Lake Havasu AZ
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| Posted: Tue Mar 15, 2016 7:01 am Post subject: Re: Weber 32 36 advice with idle video |
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| So true... I will go through your checklist and report back. |
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