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Russ Wolfe Samba Member
Joined: October 08, 2004 Posts: 25187 Location: Central Iowa
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Posted: Tue Jan 26, 2010 4:15 pm Post subject: |
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Most stucco should have been applied with 30# tar paper felt under it. _________________ Society is like stew. If you don't keep it stirred up, you end up with a lot of scum on the top!--Edward Abbey
Gary: OK. Ima poop. |
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skills@eurocarsplus Samba Peckerhead
Joined: January 01, 2007 Posts: 16893 Location: sticksville, ct.
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Posted: Tue Jan 26, 2010 5:33 pm Post subject: |
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millerje78 wrote: |
its not a rumor brother. Its personal experience (commercial contracting). The cured state of foam insulation is a PITA, and I'd like to meet the guy that can "aim" a snake down a 9' stud bay and find the box pocket. I'm not saying it can't be done, but I am saying that I've snaked wire down through all types of insulation, and foam is the most difficult. |
what makes you think i'm a brother
depends on the insulation. closed cell is a bit harder than open cell. but 2 of my close friends work with the stuff, and really don't mind. but, then again, they both own high end borescope's. not trying to argue, but the people who may have to retrofit stuff in my house tell me no worries _________________
gprudenciop wrote: |
my reason for switching to subaru is my german car was turning chinese so i said fuck it and went japanese....... |
Jake Raby wrote: |
Thanks for the correction. I used to be a nice guy, then I ruined it by exposing myself to the public. |
Brian wrote: |
Also the fact that people are agreeing with Skills, it's a turn of events for samba history |
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wgargan Samba Member
Joined: September 21, 2002 Posts: 871 Location: Dreaming of the Rockies
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Posted: Tue Jan 26, 2010 6:34 pm Post subject: |
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cdennisg wrote: |
wgargan wrote: |
our situation will likely be include the need to change outlets on interior walls. the siding of the house is stucco that seems to draw water in and get the old paper backing damp. I can see the paper in the garage that has no drywall. My thought was that the foam would be better than a blown in fiber for semi moist conditions, and of course new exterior paint. |
That is a distinct possibility. I would be interested to know what you find out if you research this further. Something is missing from the equation if you have moisture being drawn through the stucco. I have never installed stucco, but I would imagine there should be some sort of building paper or vapor barrier between it and the interior wall bay. |
it is just thick brown paper. it does not look like felt tar paper. _________________ Current ride:
1983.5 Watercooled Vanagon 'L' Automatic transmission |
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Iowa Mark Samba Member
Joined: May 06, 2004 Posts: 1071
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Posted: Tue Jan 26, 2010 6:34 pm Post subject: |
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wgargan wrote: |
good to hear these things, opinions from both sides. i am going to guess that there are different types of cured states for different types of foam.
our situation will likely be include the need to change outlets on interior walls. the siding of the house is stucco that seems to draw water in and get the old paper backing damp. I can see the paper in the garage that has no drywall. My thought was that the foam would be better than a blown in fiber for semi moist conditions, and of course new exterior paint. |
The moisture issues you are talking about might be because you are without any insulation in an old house. There is a point where the cold of the outside and the warm of the inside meet and condensation happens. (Think of the cool sweaty basement) The paper you see might be rosin paper that was used in the past to create a slipping barrier for things to expand and contract at different rates. (Under flooring was very common) The ridgidness of stucco compared to a wood structure called for one to expand without disturbing the other. This is a problem when you introduce new materials. Now where will that condensation point happen? Will the moisture that is now happening next to the paper and away from the warmth freeze at times and start popping the stucco away from the building wall? And if you seal up the stucco with a good thick coat of paint, where will that moisture go in the future? Perhaps turn to mold? These are things you really need to learn about before you grab on to that quick sales pitch on the Home and Garden channel. |
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Russ Wolfe Samba Member
Joined: October 08, 2004 Posts: 25187 Location: Central Iowa
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Posted: Tue Jan 26, 2010 7:07 pm Post subject: |
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You do not say where you ar located. Different parts of the country have to use different techniques to insulate.
Vapor barrier is one of them.
It should go under the sheet rock. There is a lot of moisture in a house.
When we get cold weather here, me actually get ice on the inside of the windows when it is below 0F.
If I did not have 6mil vapor barrier under the sheet rock, that moisture would be going into the insulation, trying to get to the cold outside shell of the house. _________________ Society is like stew. If you don't keep it stirred up, you end up with a lot of scum on the top!--Edward Abbey
Gary: OK. Ima poop. |
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millerje78 Samba Amishman
Joined: October 16, 2005 Posts: 2445 Location: Holmes County, Ohio
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Posted: Tue Jan 26, 2010 7:37 pm Post subject: |
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skills@eurocarsplus wrote: |
millerje78 wrote: |
its not a rumor brother. Its personal experience (commercial contracting). The cured state of foam insulation is a PITA, and I'd like to meet the guy that can "aim" a snake down a 9' stud bay and find the box pocket. I'm not saying it can't be done, but I am saying that I've snaked wire down through all types of insulation, and foam is the most difficult. |
what makes you think i'm a brother
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everyone in the world is a brother to me, the way I see things. don't be so paranoid. _________________ always seeking a better way
my 73 standard project
do your research, consult with experts, and buy quality parts. you won't be sorry |
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millerje78 Samba Amishman
Joined: October 16, 2005 Posts: 2445 Location: Holmes County, Ohio
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Posted: Tue Jan 26, 2010 7:45 pm Post subject: |
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wgargan wrote: |
cdennisg wrote: |
wgargan wrote: |
our situation will likely be include the need to change outlets on interior walls. the siding of the house is stucco that seems to draw water in and get the old paper backing damp. I can see the paper in the garage that has no drywall. My thought was that the foam would be better than a blown in fiber for semi moist conditions, and of course new exterior paint. |
That is a distinct possibility. I would be interested to know what you find out if you research this further. Something is missing from the equation if you have moisture being drawn through the stucco. I have never installed stucco, but I would imagine there should be some sort of building paper or vapor barrier between it and the interior wall bay. |
it is just thick brown paper. it does not look like felt tar paper. |
thats strange. what region do you live in? common practice these days is OSB and vapor barrier (house wrap) over the stud walls, then foam board and diamond lathe, then stucco or EIFS("new" stucco). I know its your house and you would know best, but are you sure the stucco isn't over old wood siding? that was a common practice in the east back in the day as a solution to old weather beaten clapboard siding and can create serious water problems and rot. _________________ always seeking a better way
my 73 standard project
do your research, consult with experts, and buy quality parts. you won't be sorry |
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Jimmy111 Samba Member
Joined: October 05, 2006 Posts: 2643 Location: Wyoming
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Posted: Wed Jan 27, 2010 7:12 am Post subject: |
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I used to make walk in coolers and freezers.
Spray foam and pour foam are great. They used to use R-11 freon but because it suposably destroyed the ozone layer it was abandoned. Now they mainly use R-134 and other non flamable freons. For comercial applications pentane is used and it is flamable. But is never used in any foam that is not used in a factory setting.
The best thing about it is that it almost completly stops air infiltration. I did my house 2 years ago and my heating bill dropped from about $275 per month to under $100. The spray foam you cant do yourself unless you want to spend $30,000 on a proportioning sprayer.
I ripped all my drywall off and had someone spray the foam then re drywalled it. It cost about 1.25 per sq ft for 3-1/2 inches of foam. |
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Major Woody Samba Enigma
Joined: December 04, 2002 Posts: 9010 Location: Portland, OR
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Posted: Wed Jan 27, 2010 10:20 am Post subject: |
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A house with a standard stucco hard-coat system on the outside should have, in the following order from the inside out:
1. drywall or plaster wall finish
2. framing with insulation (or lack thereof)
3. sheathing
4. felt tarpaper, jumbotex, tyvek or some other weather resistant barrier (some of it looks like kraft paper on the backside but has a thin tar-like coating facing out. It sucks but does repel moisture.
5. Metal lath, stapled into the sheathing
6. Hard-coat, cementious Stucco. I assume the house is not EIFS (synthetic stucco). Those systems are different. If it is an old house, it would not be EIFS.
The windows and doors should have metal sill pans and head flashing. Sometimes this is missing and lets water in.
The problem could also simply be mosture from the warm interior of the house condensing on the cold back surface of the building wrap.
You really need to figure out what is causing this moisture issue, as insulation will prevent air movement in the stud bay and trap whatever moisture is getting in, causing rot. |
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dcketh Samba Member
Joined: April 19, 2006 Posts: 436 Location: Tionesta, Pennsylvania
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Posted: Wed Jan 27, 2010 12:25 pm Post subject: |
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cdennisg wrote: |
Vermiculite does contain asbestos |
Vermiculite does NOT in general contain asbestos. There was some that came from a specific mine in Libby, Montana that WAS contaminated with asbestos and made the news. (try Google) It is very easy and quite affordable to send samples away to be tested. I did just that with some popcorn texture in my basement ceiling as well as some loose stuff I found in my attic. Both came back as vermiculite with no sign of asbestos. I think it cost me around $25 for a couple samples and is cheap peace of mind prior to doing any renovation. I can also show the letter I received to any prospective seller who may try to use it as leverage in a price negotiation. _________________ ~ Dan ~
'71 Westy
'74 Thing |
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cdennisg Samba Member
Joined: November 02, 2004 Posts: 20287 Location: Sandpoint, ID
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Posted: Wed Jan 27, 2010 12:49 pm Post subject: |
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dcketh wrote: |
cdennisg wrote: |
Vermiculite does contain asbestos |
Vermiculite does NOT in general contain asbestos. There was some that came from a specific mine in Libby, Montana that WAS contaminated with asbestos and made the news. (try Google) It is very easy and quite affordable to send samples away to be tested. I did just that with some popcorn texture in my basement ceiling as well as some loose stuff I found in my attic. Both came back as vermiculite with no sign of asbestos. I think it cost me around $25 for a couple samples and is cheap peace of mind prior to doing any renovation. I can also show the letter I received to any prospective seller who may try to use it as leverage in a price negotiation. |
I said that, too. Did you read my entire post? W.R. Grace is the name of the company.
If there is such a thing as vermiculite that does not contain asbestos, I have never heard of it. I wonder if it's a matter of semantics?
I am 99% sure what is in my attic is asbestos, as I live within a couple hours of Libby, MT. This stuff was used all over the country for home insulation. The northeast has many examples where it was used as a retrofit for older homes. It was sold as a filler for potting soil, and even as a dietary additive! MMMM, tasty! _________________ nothing |
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dcketh Samba Member
Joined: April 19, 2006 Posts: 436 Location: Tionesta, Pennsylvania
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Posted: Wed Jan 27, 2010 2:26 pm Post subject: |
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cdennisg,
My post was not meant to be condescending, but I can see now that it may have seemed as if it was. Sorry. I just wanted to point out that vermiculite and asbestos are two different things and not necessarily associated with each other. However, after I posted I read some more about it, and apparently something like 80% of all the vermiculite produced prior to 1990 came from Libby. So, perhaps your statement is more accurate to say that, in general, it IS contaminated! In any case, the only way to know for certain if your house has asbestos is to test for it. In my case, the vermiculite I have is not attic insulation per se, but rather finer white granules that I suspect is what the builder (or more likely the previous owner) mixed with plaster to make ceiling texture. It seems he must have had a bunch left over and decided he might as well use it for something and spread it around in the attic. I need to blow cellulose up there and insulate it right and wanted to know what the hell that stuff was before I do so, or hire someone else to do so. _________________ ~ Dan ~
'71 Westy
'74 Thing |
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Major Woody Samba Enigma
Joined: December 04, 2002 Posts: 9010 Location: Portland, OR
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Posted: Wed Jan 27, 2010 3:47 pm Post subject: |
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I had the walls and attic of our 1953 house insulated to code with cellulose. I priced it both ways and it was barely more expensive to have the work done professionally vs doing it myself. Attic was coated with about an inch of rock wool mixed with vermiculite. It is good to have that covered up with two feet of cellulose. |
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cdennisg Samba Member
Joined: November 02, 2004 Posts: 20287 Location: Sandpoint, ID
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Posted: Wed Jan 27, 2010 6:49 pm Post subject: |
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dcketh wrote: |
cdennisg,
My post was not meant to be condescending, but I can see now that it may have seemed as if it was. Sorry. I just wanted to point out that vermiculite and asbestos are two different things and not necessarily associated with each other. |
No offense taken. Just trying to make things as clear as possible. Thanks for the other info. Much of that is contrary to what I have known, I guess it's time to do some more research.
Major Woody: rock wool is actually good stuff. It is old technology that is common now in homes that are attempting to be "green". Blown in cellulose in the attic works very well, too. _________________ nothing |
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