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Bleyseng
Samba Member
Joined: July 03, 2005
Posts: 4752
Location: Seattle
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 Posted: Sat Aug 01, 2009 1:02 am Post subject: Re: Tuning the MPS |
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| Keith Park wrote: |
Hi all,
OK... NEW 914 Raby 2056, with the D jet cam, I have 73 ECU, excellent harness, but need the 037 MPS.
I HAVE 3 unmolested good tested 007 Type 3 (C type) MPS's, can I use one of these and tune it for the 2056 or are the internals different and not able to meet the larger engines needs?
I have access to very good inductance meters and read Ray's writeup on the forum, but if I can adjust it which of the 3 (or all 3) of the adjustments will I need to change? Will I know when they are right with driveability or will i need to somehow measure emissions or mixture?
Thanks for any help
Keith |
just use a 049 or a 043 MPS and adjust the inner screw first for the best partload running by ear. Then check the WOT mix for correct AFR..
_________________
70 Ghia Black convert-9/69 build date-stock w/133k 1600 SP-barn find now with a rebuilt tranny and engine
77 Westy 2.0L w/Ljet, Camper Special engine-95hp and with LSD!(sold)
76 Porsche 914 2.1L L20c, 120hp Djet (sold)
87 Syncro Westy Titan Red 2.1L 2 knob 100k miles |
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Keith Park
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Joined: August 13, 2006
Posts: 225
Location: Clifton Park NY
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| Posted: Sat Aug 01, 2009 6:01 pm Post subject: |
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well, unfortunately, I dont have eather of those, just the 007's of that style.
Keith |
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Bleyseng
Samba Member
Joined: July 03, 2005
Posts: 4752
Location: Seattle
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| Posted: Sun Aug 02, 2009 9:37 am Post subject: |
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You will need a 049 or 043 cover to install instead of the 007 as it has the. Built in wot stop to make it work. The only thing that matters is that is the good oem diaphram
_________________
70 Ghia Black convert-9/69 build date-stock w/133k 1600 SP-barn find now with a rebuilt tranny and engine
77 Westy 2.0L w/Ljet, Camper Special engine-95hp and with LSD!(sold)
76 Porsche 914 2.1L L20c, 120hp Djet (sold)
87 Syncro Westy Titan Red 2.1L 2 knob 100k miles |
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raygreenwood
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Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21521
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Sun Aug 02, 2009 2:10 pm Post subject: |
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I need to consult my parts list...but is the 007 from the earlier non copper diaphram style?
It cannot be used on the later systems...unless you install the late model back end section of the later model MPS's. Thats not a simple adjustment. There are more than few differences internally. It can be done..just not simple. Ray |
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Keith Park
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Joined: August 13, 2006
Posts: 225
Location: Clifton Park NY
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| Posted: Sun Aug 02, 2009 3:25 pm Post subject: |
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the 007 was used on the 70-71 Type 3, not sure if it has a copper diaphragm or not but its not one of the ones with the plastic cap on the end.
So it looks like im back to square one, I NEED that Porsche sensor, be it 043 049 or 037, although now I have 3 to choose from, and With Ray's help can adjust any of those to what I need.
Now to find one that isnt well beyond my already exausted budget....
Will I be able to drive it 10 miles to the windshield shop with the 007 on there??
Thanks
KEith |
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Bobnotch
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Joined: July 06, 2003
Posts: 22438
Location: Kimball, Mi
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| Posted: Sun Aug 02, 2009 8:54 pm Post subject: |
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| Bleyseng wrote: |
| You will need a 049 or 043 cover to install instead of the 007 as it has the. Built in wot stop to make it work. The only thing that matters is that is the good oem diaphram |
Are these Bosch numbers? I'm only asking because I've got 2 different Bosch number MPS's with the same VW number. One of them is 0 280 100 049, and the other is 0 280 100 041 and the VW number is 022 906 051E. Are these esentially the same part? One is rivited, and the others have screws, but none of them have a black plastic end cap (just epoxy covering the end). I'm just asking, so I have an idea what they were off of, and possible use on a 1.7L t-4 with an "E" t-4 brain. Thanks.
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Bob 65 Notch S with Sunroof
71 Notch ...aka Krunchy; build pics here;
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=249390 -been busy working
64 T-34 Ghia...aka Wolfie, under construction... http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=412120
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Bleyseng
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Joined: July 03, 2005
Posts: 4752
Location: Seattle
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| Posted: Sun Aug 02, 2009 10:25 pm Post subject: |
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We use the Bosch numbers as they tell you what it was for...a 041 is a 72 914 or 412 1.7L.
Ones with screws are rebuilt....none of the type 4 MPS's came with a black plastic cover. The WOT stop is fixed into place with epoxy..it can be removed with a heat gun and all of it must be picked out with a dental pick so the WOT stop can be removed. That is how you get access to adjust the inner and outer screws. Pain in the butt to do too....
049 is a 73 1.7L 914
043 is a 74-76 2.0L 914 which is easy to convert to a 2056 MPS...
_________________
70 Ghia Black convert-9/69 build date-stock w/133k 1600 SP-barn find now with a rebuilt tranny and engine
77 Westy 2.0L w/Ljet, Camper Special engine-95hp and with LSD!(sold)
76 Porsche 914 2.1L L20c, 120hp Djet (sold)
87 Syncro Westy Titan Red 2.1L 2 knob 100k miles |
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Bobnotch
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Joined: July 06, 2003
Posts: 22438
Location: Kimball, Mi
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| Posted: Mon Aug 03, 2009 4:29 am Post subject: |
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Ok, thanks. This will be a big help in the future when I get that engine up and running in my t-3. Since it's already partly calibrated for the 1.7 engine size it should be easier to dial in. 
_________________
Bob 65 Notch S with Sunroof
71 Notch ...aka Krunchy; build pics here;
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=249390 -been busy working
64 T-34 Ghia...aka Wolfie, under construction... http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=412120
| Tram wrote: |
| "Friends are God's way of apologizing for relatives." |
| Tram wrote: |
| People keep confusing "restored" and "restroyed". |
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raygreenwood
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Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21521
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Mon Aug 03, 2009 5:13 am Post subject: |
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| Bleyseng wrote: |
We use the Bosch numbers as they tell you what it was for...a 041 is a 72 914 or 412 1.7L.
Ones with screws are rebuilt....none of the type 4 MPS's came with a black plastic cover. The WOT stop is fixed into place with epoxy..it can be removed with a heat gun and all of it must be picked out with a dental pick so the WOT stop can be removed. That is how you get access to adjust the inner and outer screws. Pain in the butt to do too....
049 is a 73 1.7L 914
043 is a 74-76 2.0L 914 which is easy to convert to a 2056 MPS... |
This is exactly what my mind was turning over. The only ones with teh black cap are early non-diaphram type....or so I think. Though I have worked on a zillion D-jet cars....I have less experience with early systems and have not committed all of the part # combinations to memory  (what memory he says  ).
It is not 100# assured in my mind that the ones with screws are rebuilt. I used to think that as well....but the problem is that several of the ones I have with screws were taken from second owner vehicles with no history of having the MPS replaced....and teh screws are smaller in diameter than some of the rivets I have removed. But...its possible....that they simply replaced either the rear or front during the rebuild.
Bob is seeing alot of what I see. You can have tehsame exact part in every respect with different #;s. Yes...the Bosch part # tells you where it goes but does not tell the whole story.
The 051E...was used in combination with the "E" series , late model ECU with CO mixture adjustment.
That does not mean that you cannot use others with that ECU...or other ECU's with that MPS....simply that they would have to be adjusted.
The differences between the 041, 049 and 043 ....physically....are negligable. They can all be adjusted to operate in all three of those vehicles.....1.7L 411, 412 and 914...regardless of year...because they had Identical cams, ignition, compression TB etc. The difference is in how they wanted the car to perform or meet emmissions from year to year.
The 2.0 with the 049...had larger swept area, larger intakes and plenum, same or slightly different advance curves and the same cam. The differences internally were a slightly different anti chatter valve venting...and on some models....a long or short spring. All else was adjustment. Ray |
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Bobnotch
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Location: Kimball, Mi
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| Posted: Mon Aug 03, 2009 7:02 am Post subject: |
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Ray, so you're saying the 049 could be substituded for either the 037 or 043 in Keith's application, with some fine tuning? I'm just asking, because he did say he's running an "E" brain as well, which you mentioned would work. And he's mainly looking at getting his break in done (new engine, hasn't been started yet), and then taking the car 10 miles to get the windsheild installed (a whole other deal in itself). Would the 049 be close enough to get any baseline readings that you mentioned on page 2 that you have to have before doing the fine tuning? I realize he might run lean initially, but how much lean would it be?
_________________
Bob 65 Notch S with Sunroof
71 Notch ...aka Krunchy; build pics here;
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=249390 -been busy working
64 T-34 Ghia...aka Wolfie, under construction... http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=412120
| Tram wrote: |
| "Friends are God's way of apologizing for relatives." |
| Tram wrote: |
| People keep confusing "restored" and "restroyed". |
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Keith Park
Samba Member
Joined: August 13, 2006
Posts: 225
Location: Clifton Park NY
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| Posted: Thu Aug 06, 2009 7:45 pm Post subject: |
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OK, so thanks to Bob I have an 049 to recalibrate here.
Ive read thru the info, but one question, the end plug which is your stop adjustment, you have to remove it to adjust the other 2 adjustments, but you cant run it with that plug out, do you drill a hole in the plug so you can have the plug in and access the inner adjustments or remove it every
time you want to make a change??
Thanks
Keith |
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Adriel Rowley
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Joined: October 12, 2006
Posts: 4748
Location: Mesa, Arizona
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| Posted: Thu Aug 06, 2009 8:46 pm Post subject: |
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| Keith Park wrote: |
OK, so thanks to Bob I have an 049 to recalibrate here.
Ive read thru the info, but one question, the end plug which is your stop adjustment, you have to remove it to adjust the other 2 adjustments, but you cant run it with that plug out, do you drill a hole in the plug so you can have the plug in and access the inner adjustments or remove it every
time you want to make a change??
Thanks
Keith |
Ray explained it in great detail in the M.P.S. thread, or one linked.
In short, mark the body with 12 marks like a clock, and one make on the plug at 12. Then, remove the plug, counting how many turns. Make note where you stopped and the turns. Then do the reverse when reinstalling it.
Good luck, and have fun.
_________________
Please consider I am Autistic, so I process information differently and still working on social skills. Thanks.
Dad's 1964 Beetle purchased September 1968.
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=9252810#9252810
1971 Sunroof Squareback with Fuel Injection
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=219811&highlight=squareback+rejuvenation |
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Bobnotch
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Joined: July 06, 2003
Posts: 22438
Location: Kimball, Mi
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| Posted: Thu Aug 06, 2009 9:15 pm Post subject: |
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I had to do some searching in my archives (I'd been gathering D-jet info for years, trying to help understand the system), but I found a note from Ray that he recomended drilling a 3/16ths hole to do quick adjustments. This was back from 2006 that I got this info. I hope it helps.
Note, this has been snipped, and the info before it, suggested marking the outer plug, and counting the number of turns to be able to reset it's depth.
...At this point...I recommend going to teh workbench to drill a 3/16" hole in teh center of the aluminum plug to get a small screwdriver through it....so you can re-install it to teh correct number of turns/depth...and then be able to rev the engine after each adjustment looking for overly rich flat spots.
After each adjustment....rev it a ocuple of times...re-set the idle...and drive it. Ray
_________________
Bob 65 Notch S with Sunroof
71 Notch ...aka Krunchy; build pics here;
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=249390 -been busy working
64 T-34 Ghia...aka Wolfie, under construction... http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=412120
| Tram wrote: |
| "Friends are God's way of apologizing for relatives." |
| Tram wrote: |
| People keep confusing "restored" and "restroyed". |
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Adriel Rowley
Samba Member
Joined: October 12, 2006
Posts: 4748
Location: Mesa, Arizona
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JSMskater
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Joined: February 01, 2006
Posts: 5362
Location: Murrieta California
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| Posted: Fri Aug 07, 2009 11:19 am Post subject: |
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| Adriel Rowley wrote: |
| So, I have exhausted everything that would cause my rich running. Going to swap in a tampered with M.P.S.. So, how do I properly set the full load stop to the correct specification? Is it better for it to be too far out then too far in? I know if it is too far out, I can pop the diaphragm. |
Go look in your thread-- I think you've got other problems.
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TOOB Member #3
I make D-jet FI connectors |
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Adriel Rowley
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Posts: 4748
Location: Mesa, Arizona
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| Posted: Fri Aug 07, 2009 3:47 pm Post subject: |
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| JSMskater wrote: |
| Adriel Rowley wrote: |
| So, I have exhausted everything that would cause my rich running. Going to swap in a tampered with M.P.S.. So, how do I properly set the full load stop to the correct specification? Is it better for it to be too far out then too far in? I know if it is too far out, I can pop the diaphragm. |
Go look in your thread-- I think you've got other problems. |
I did. Waiting for a reply. 
_________________
Please consider I am Autistic, so I process information differently and still working on social skills. Thanks.
Dad's 1964 Beetle purchased September 1968.
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=9252810#9252810
1971 Sunroof Squareback with Fuel Injection
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=219811&highlight=squareback+rejuvenation |
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Bleyseng
Samba Member
Joined: July 03, 2005
Posts: 4752
Location: Seattle
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| Posted: Thu Aug 13, 2009 10:49 am Post subject: |
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Rich running adjustment after ALL OTHER items have been checked:
engine is in proper tune
has good compression above 110PSI
valves adjusted correctly
timed correctly
new vacuum hoses and vacuum leaks corrected
Steady fuel pressure set correctly with new filter
ok, warm up the engine
have a helper hold the revs to 2500 rpms, its going to vary now...
adjust the inner screw without movingthe outer screw so the engine rpms run the best/smoothest at 2500rpms...probably a tad rich.
Ok, now you are half assed close to proper mix so check it with a LM1 or a AFR setup at a dyno shop to set it to 14 to one at 2500 rpms under load (or the road or on a roller dyno).
The WOT stop can be adjusted for proper WOT operation on the road witha LM1 or on a roller dyno. From a 2000rpm start going to WOT you should see the AFR drop to 11 to 1 then rise to a max of 14 to 1 at 5000 rpms...You adjust the stop for the beginning value... too lean at the start and you choke out the engine at high rpms...and risk high rpm leaning out.
Once adjusted the car should run very smoothly, from off idle to WOT and throttle response is instant....
When new this was a great FI and a huge jump over carbs...
_________________
70 Ghia Black convert-9/69 build date-stock w/133k 1600 SP-barn find now with a rebuilt tranny and engine
77 Westy 2.0L w/Ljet, Camper Special engine-95hp and with LSD!(sold)
76 Porsche 914 2.1L L20c, 120hp Djet (sold)
87 Syncro Westy Titan Red 2.1L 2 knob 100k miles |
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Keith Park
Samba Member
Joined: August 13, 2006
Posts: 225
Location: Clifton Park NY
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| Posted: Wed Aug 26, 2009 5:45 pm Post subject: 2056 giggle off idle |
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OK, the 2056 is running and timing set, valve etc. Using 73 914 D jet with an adjustable 049 pressure sensor, got the mixture adjusted so that driving and accelerating is nice and smooth, the only issue now is that when your decelerating down to an idle, or running very light throttle at low RPM's is surges up and down, gets the whole car jumping. Gets worse when the main mixture is too rich but I cant adjust it out, and the WOT stop doesnt seem to have an effect on anything, once past this it accelerates fine.
Im running a 5 pin throttle position switch, dont think its matched to this setup but could this be the problem?
Thanks
Keith |
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Russ Wolfe
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Posts: 25187
Location: Central Iowa
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| Posted: Wed Aug 26, 2009 5:50 pm Post subject: Re: 2056 giggle off idle |
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| Keith Park wrote: |
OK, the 2056 is running and timing set, valve etc. Using 73 914 D jet with an adjustable 049 pressure sensor, got the mixture adjusted so that driving and accelerating is nice and smooth, the only issue now is that when your decelerating down to an idle, or running very light throttle at low RPM's is surges up and down, gets the whole car jumping. Gets worse when the main mixture is too rich but I cant adjust it out, and the WOT stop doesnt seem to have an effect on anything, once past this it accelerates fine.
Im running a 5 pin throttle position switch, dont think its matched to this setup but could this be the problem?
Thanks
Keith |
Adjust the throttle switch. You are getting into the "overrun" circuit of the ECU. Throttle switch is telling the ECU it is closed, and the trigger points are saying the rpm is above 1200, to you MUST be decelerating. Get the throttle switch so it is JUST showing closed when the throttle is closed.
The instructions for setting it is in the Elfrink Manual on that DVD
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Keith Park
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Joined: August 13, 2006
Posts: 225
Location: Clifton Park NY
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| Posted: Wed Aug 26, 2009 5:58 pm Post subject: |
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Yea, I think when I adjusted it I moved it that one mark past where it was closed, so it might be a bit off. Remembering the way the T3 was adjusted and I may have got that wrong, will check that disc.
Thanks Russ,
Keith |
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