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stormfin
Samba Member
Joined: January 09, 2006
Posts: 3
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 Posted: Fri Apr 27, 2007 6:35 am Post subject: 412 auto transaxle questions |
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Hi,
I'm very close to buying a nice 412 wagon, but I'm having a problem getting past the fear of getting into something that I can't fix when it breaks. Specifically, I'm concerned about the auto transaxle. I have searched and read on this forum and others, but I'm not sure my primary questions have been answered, which are:
When that auto transaxle gives up the ghost, what are my options?
What else will work in this car if I can't scrounge up an actual 411/412 unit?
Can they be rebuilt, and if so, by who?
Can I use one of the 4 speed options popular with the type I/type IV conversion crowd, like the stuff at the Type IV Store at aircooledtechnology.com? |
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vwfye
Samba Member
Joined: April 15, 2000
Posts: 7663
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| Posted: Fri Apr 27, 2007 8:46 am Post subject: |
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your autotranny is a borg/warner unit and can be serviced/repaired by most any tranny shop. i know that AAMCO will work on them.
_________________
64 No'back Speedster "Pearl"
1980s Sand Dragster "The Plunger"
LME "Little Giant Killer 3" |
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ubercrap
Samba Moderator
Joined: July 01, 2004
Posts: 1060
Location: Ridley Park, PA
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| Posted: Fri Apr 27, 2007 9:44 am Post subject: Re: 412 auto transaxle questions |
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| stormfin wrote: |
Hi,
I'm very close to buying a nice 412 wagon, but I'm having a problem getting past the fear of getting into something that I can't fix when it breaks. Specifically, I'm concerned about the auto transaxle. I have searched and read on this forum and others, but I'm not sure my primary questions have been answered, which are:
When that auto transaxle gives up the ghost, what are my options?
What else will work in this car if I can't scrounge up an actual 411/412 unit?
Can they be rebuilt, and if so, by who?
Can I use one of the 4 speed options popular with the type I/type IV conversion crowd, like the stuff at the Type IV Store at aircooledtechnology.com? |
Most drivetrain parts should be readily available (if you have an automatic), that's the easy part of these cars. The Type 4 manual transaxle is different than any other VW unit and is not easily interchangeable. Even if you fit a Beetle or bus manual transaxle to your Type 4, you probably wouldn't be happy with the gear ratios. You could put a Porsche transaxle in there, but that would also would require quite extensive of fabrication from the looks of it. I imagine it would only be worth it if you could do most of the fabrication yourself or had very, very deep pockets. Type 4 manual transaxles are out there-be sure to get the manual pedal cluster and reservoir. They have a hydraulic clutch with all that entails.
_________________
'74 412 wagon
(2) '74 412 2dr. sedan
'73 412 2dr. sedan |
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stormfin
Samba Member
Joined: January 09, 2006
Posts: 3
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| Posted: Fri Apr 27, 2007 9:54 am Post subject: |
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| vwfye wrote: |
| your autotranny is a borg/warner unit and can be serviced/repaired by most any tranny shop. i know that AAMCO will work on them. |
vwfye,
Thanks for the response. I noticed that you had started a thread a while back about having your tranny rebuilt and was wondering if you were talking about an automatic or not. How much did that end up setting you back? Did the shop have any trouble figuring out what parts went in there and were they able to find everything? |
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vwfye
Samba Member
Joined: April 15, 2000
Posts: 7663
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| Posted: Fri Apr 27, 2007 10:21 am Post subject: |
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my tranny hasn't been rebuilt. i just know it can be as others have had it done. the type 3 automatic is almost identical to the t4 version and aamco will do either.
_________________
64 No'back Speedster "Pearl"
1980s Sand Dragster "The Plunger"
LME "Little Giant Killer 3" |
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stormfin
Samba Member
Joined: January 09, 2006
Posts: 3
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| Posted: Fri Apr 27, 2007 10:26 am Post subject: |
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| vwfye wrote: |
| my tranny hasn't been rebuilt. i just know it can be as others have had it done. the type 3 automatic is almost identical to the t4 version and aamco will do either. |
Sorry vwfye, I mistook you for the owner of this thread http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=215791. that's what i get for not looking first. |
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Wildthings
Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2005
Posts: 50360
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| Posted: Fri Apr 27, 2007 10:27 pm Post subject: |
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| The 003 automatic transmission can be rebuild by just about anyone with normal mechanical skills and tools. The parts are readily available at any tranny wholesaler. |
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heshstallion
Drives a Jetta
Joined: February 23, 2006
Posts: 364
Location: Lodi, CA
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| Posted: Sat Apr 28, 2007 12:02 am Post subject: Re: 412 auto transaxle questions |
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| ubercrap wrote: |
| stormfin wrote: |
Hi,
I'm very close to buying a nice 412 wagon, but I'm having a problem getting past the fear of getting into something that I can't fix when it breaks. Specifically, I'm concerned about the auto transaxle. I have searched and read on this forum and others, but I'm not sure my primary questions have been answered, which are:
When that auto transaxle gives up the ghost, what are my options?
What else will work in this car if I can't scrounge up an actual 411/412 unit?
Can they be rebuilt, and if so, by who?
Can I use one of the 4 speed options popular with the type I/type IV conversion crowd, like the stuff at the Type IV Store at aircooledtechnology.com? |
Most drivetrain parts should be readily available (if you have an automatic), that's the easy part of these cars. The Type 4 manual transaxle is different than any other VW unit and is not easily interchangeable. Even if you fit a Beetle or bus manual transaxle to your Type 4, you probably wouldn't be happy with the gear ratios. You could put a Porsche transaxle in there, but that would also would require quite extensive of fabrication from the looks of it. I imagine it would only be worth it if you could do most of the fabrication yourself or had very, very deep pockets. Type 4 manual transaxles are out there-be sure to get the manual pedal cluster and reservoir. They have a hydraulic clutch with all that entails. |
how different are the late bay transaxles frow a t4? and isnt it possible to change the gear ratios to something more desriable/effective?
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everyones happy.....when the wizard walks by |
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kurtmcq
Samba Member
Joined: August 04, 2009
Posts: 36
Location: Keeping it Weird in Austin
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| Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 12:33 am Post subject: late bay transaxles |
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I have a late bay transaxle and was wondering if I can toss it into my 412?
_________________
Kurt McQuiston
VW/Audi/DKW & NSU Aficionado
59 NSU PII (rust free! in restoration)
60 NSU Prima Funfstern (done 14k & perfect)
67 NSU RO80 Crunchy
78 Deluxe MicroBus Texas Bus/Rust free! |
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raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21521
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 6:47 pm Post subject: |
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| I "think" that the differential section is slightly longer on the bus....but oitherwise the hydraulic gearchange section is virtually identical to the 003 automatic.....but the gear ratios of the bus automatic would make this car an absolute slug to drive. Ray |
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KTPhil 
Samba Member
Joined: April 06, 2006
Posts: 34023
Location: Conejo Valley, CA
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Wildthings
Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2005
Posts: 50360
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| Posted: Thu Jun 21, 2012 3:06 am Post subject: |
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| raygreenwood wrote: |
| I "think" that the differential section is slightly longer on the bus....but oitherwise the hydraulic gearchange section is virtually identical to the 003 automatic.....but the gear ratios of the bus automatic would make this car an absolute slug to drive. Ray |
I would actually think that with the bus gearing the car would be a hoot to drive. Yes it might not be able to go quite as fast, but the acceleration around town would be improved. |
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kurtmcq
Samba Member
Joined: August 04, 2009
Posts: 36
Location: Keeping it Weird in Austin
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| Posted: Thu Jun 21, 2012 4:56 am Post subject: Bus in 411 |
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Well, here is my situation: I have a completely REBUILT! Bus transmission just sitting. (and 2.0 type 4 engine) and was thinking of using them for a 411.
_________________
Kurt McQuiston
VW/Audi/DKW & NSU Aficionado
59 NSU PII (rust free! in restoration)
60 NSU Prima Funfstern (done 14k & perfect)
67 NSU RO80 Crunchy
78 Deluxe MicroBus Texas Bus/Rust free! |
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raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21521
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Thu Jun 21, 2012 4:49 pm Post subject: |
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| Wildthings wrote: |
| raygreenwood wrote: |
| I "think" that the differential section is slightly longer on the bus....but oitherwise the hydraulic gearchange section is virtually identical to the 003 automatic.....but the gear ratios of the bus automatic would make this car an absolute slug to drive. Ray |
I would actually think that with the bus gearing the car would be a hoot to drive. Yes it might not be able to go quite as fast, but the acceleration around town would be improved. |
Actually i dont think it will be improved. By the time you get into usable torque you are outside of the sweet spot of the 1.7L FI engine. The 1.8 sweet spot is slightly higher. Its not just the final drive...its the ratios in between with the weight of this car and the power provided.
But....from what a few others have noted....one of the bus torque converters (cant remember which)...will give a better off the line rev before lock up. Even with a much better power/torque to weight ration...the 411/4122 could use a little better stall characteristics off the line. Ray |
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Wildthings
Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2005
Posts: 50360
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| Posted: Fri Jun 22, 2012 4:48 am Post subject: |
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| raygreenwood wrote: |
| Wildthings wrote: |
| raygreenwood wrote: |
| I "think" that the differential section is slightly longer on the bus....but oitherwise the hydraulic gearchange section is virtually identical to the 003 automatic.....but the gear ratios of the bus automatic would make this car an absolute slug to drive. Ray |
I would actually think that with the bus gearing the car would be a hoot to drive. Yes it might not be able to go quite as fast, but the acceleration around town would be improved. |
Actually i dont think it will be improved. By the time you get into usable torque you are outside of the sweet spot of the 1.7L FI engine. The 1.8 sweet spot is slightly higher. Its not just the final drive...its the ratios in between with the weight of this car and the power provided.
But....from what a few others have noted....one of the bus torque converters (cant remember which)...will give a better off the line rev before lock up. Even with a much better power/torque to weight ration...the 411/4122 could use a little better stall characteristics off the line. Ray |
The overly high gearing and too low of a stall of the torque converters are what really killed the performance of these cars, it gave them the well deserved reputation of being slugs. It also gave them a bad name in the reliability column as they had such a hard time getting moving, especially if they are parked against a rock or a curb that the driver would smoke the tranny while the car went nowhere. VW lowered the final ratio in mid production to try and help the situation, but would have done better to drop it even more. |
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raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21521
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Fri Jun 22, 2012 5:01 pm Post subject: |
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Actually they were never slugs. having driven 411 and 412'S since the day I learned to drive...I can tell you they are quicker by far than the type 3. With 82 HP from the get go....and more torque and largely the same weight as a type 3...they were never slugs.
The reason for the reputation as a slug with these cars with automatics is largely the same reason why type 3 with autos are listed as slugs (also not true)...is primarily due to abysmal tuning of the D-jet injection.
Having driven and owned 412's with both auto and manual...simultaneously...after putting the automatic in proper adjustment and tuning the engine correctly....these cars get up and go well.
VW did NOT change the final drive mid model due to any performance issues. The 3.91:1 final drive was ALWAYS in the wagons...even the 411's that came in 1971 to the US....and was listed this way from the get go. This is in the parts manual as well. The saloons always got the higher final drive until about early 1973....then everything got L-jet and the 3.91:1 final drive.
With the abundance of the terribly underpowered california models with low compression and with the replacement of D-jet with the detuned L-jet 1800 engine....both of which did not have the torque to operate the 3.73:1 final drive in the saloons very well, it was simpler to have everything with one final drive.
I do fully agree that a better torque converter would have made a decent car better....but having owned my first 411 in virtually ideal shape (I got it well cared for at 52,000 original miles)....I can tell you that the reputation for being a slug was totally undeserved.
However...by the time I hit about 75K miles.....the car was a slug. It required a main pressure adjustment and a band adjustment to bring crisp shiftpoints back due to lower vacuum from an aging engine and better hydraulic presure from an aging transmission.
Along with a religious search for vaccum leaks, a serious tune-up...an adjustment to the pressure sensor to compensate for engine age from a crafty drunken mechanic that I learned bundles from......the car ran great again.
The slugginess of the automatiic 411 and 412 from my experience is largely due to owners not having the gumption to do the intense maintenance required. Also...for the most part...the dealers sucked at this maintenance as well.
Out of the three I had access to in high school and college...all of them flatly stated they hated working on type 4's. Ray
EDIT: sorry..my brain was firmly entrenched in the 4 speed that is on my workbench at this very moment.
The final drive ratio I mentioned (3.73:1) is a final drive ratio for a 004 four speed....not the automatic. But my point still stands. Let me elaborate.
Wildthings point about movingt he final drive ratio downward on the automatics due to problems with getting off the line....is a common opinion among some. It might even be true....but a few technical details support a different reason.
The 3.67:1 final drive originally came in the type 3. This ring and pinion set 003 519 101....listed as 9:33 ratio came in models 411 through 426 (two and four door sedans) and went up to chassis # 410 2100 000.
The 3.91:1 final drive or 11:43 ratio came in models 461 through 466...from chassis # 460 2000 001...which by the way are Variant/wagon models.
The 3.91:1 also came in models 411 through 466...all type 4 cars.....from chassis # 411 2000 001.
The main reason why the final drives were lowered is because of the cruising speed rpm which is kept firmly in the rpm sweet spot of the type 4 engine primarily with fuel injection.
On the 1.7L this is firmly goverened by compresion, stroke and cam design.
The 3.67:1 final drive unit was really designed to run on carbed type 1 based engines in the type 3. The torque to weight ratio is higher in the type 4....but its best peak happens at a slightly higher rpm than the type 3.
The 004 manual with the identical engine as that of the automatic recieved the 3.73:1 final drive in two and four door sedans ( the wagons had the 3.91:1 from the get go) ....with no off the line issues....until the 1974 model year when everything got the 3.91:1 final drive...auto's and manuals...sedans and wagons.
By this time all vehicles in this country were L-jet....and most of the few sold elsewhere in the world were carbed. It made no difference to either of those powerplants.
The difference between 3.67:1 and 3.73:1 in the auto and manual is barely perceptible. the difference between either of those and 3.91:1 is noticable but not harsh.
The ONLY reason you did not see the 3.67:1 in the two and four door saloons....is because they simply will not fit on the differential spool. The 003 auto ring and pinion and the 004 four speeed ring and pinion are of the identical design and built by the same firm on the same line.....and are interchangeable with machine work to the 004 spool...but not withoutweakening the spool by removing about 4mm of steel on a lathe.
Otherwise the reverse hypoid pinion of the 003 will press right onto the 004 pinion shaft. There are a lot of interesting parallels between the 003 and 004 final drive. Ray |
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