| Author |
Message |
pierrox
Samba Member
Joined: March 06, 2013
Posts: 258
Location: Paris, London, The Alps, North Carolina
|
 Posted: Thu Mar 14, 2024 2:55 pm Post subject: Re: Official "What oil / additives should I use" topic |
 |
|
It's now march 2024. I'm in the US, last time was 2 years ago when I barely got a chance to just start our van and drive around the parking lot. In other words, won't hurt to change the oil.
Looks like the local Walmart only has 5w20 which I think is way too thin. Condition of the 1600 engine is unknown, so I'd rather stick to the usual viscosity. 15w50 or 20w50. What are my options here? Off the shelf rather than ordering.
Thanks!
_________________
Our bus is on Instagram
instagram.com/biencuitbus |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
Bruce
Samba Member
Joined: May 16, 2003
Posts: 17294
Location: Left coast, Canada
|
| Posted: Sun Mar 17, 2024 6:16 pm Post subject: Re: Official "What oil / additives should I use" topic |
|
|
A stock Beetle engine was designed to use straight 30 oil. Today, use 5W-30. It's available everywhere.
20W-50 tar is for worn out engines. It also causes your engine oil to run much hotter than it would with 5W-30.
_________________
| overheard at the portland Swap Meet... wrote: |
| ..... a steering wheel made from a mastadon tusk..... |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
pierrox
Samba Member
Joined: March 06, 2013
Posts: 258
Location: Paris, London, The Alps, North Carolina
|
| Posted: Mon Mar 18, 2024 8:09 am Post subject: Re: Official "What oil / additives should I use" topic |
|
|
Interesting you say this. I have the original manual to my French bus (1600cc upright engine) and their recommandations are different from yours:
They do recommend SAE30 but the temperature window is pretty narrow. And they recommend multigrade too, and it's 15W50. They even emphasize that using 5w20 should be done with caution especially if the outside temp is above their recommandation.
So I think 20w50 in an old engine is probably not a bad option. And I just got some VR1 Classic (or whatever it's called) and it should be fine. 
_________________
Our bus is on Instagram
instagram.com/biencuitbus |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Wildthings
Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2005
Posts: 50356
|
| Posted: Mon Mar 18, 2024 10:40 am Post subject: Re: Official "What oil / additives should I use" topic |
|
|
The problem with a really thick oil is that the VW aircooled engine regulates oil temperatures by sensing oil pressure and anything you do in an attempt to get higher oil pressure the engine will try to counter by letting the engine oil get that much hotter.
Oil that is bypassing the cooler and being dumped back to the sump doesn't cool the bearings and pistons, and doesn't otherwise help with lubrication. The rule of thumb is you want 10 psi per thousand RPM with want ever oil you are running.
I have been able to run every aircooled VW engine I have owned on 30wt regardless of the miles on the engine with one rebuild giving me ~250K miles. For winter driving I have been able to start any engine I have owned down to -20°F on 10w30, though in more recent years I run a 5w40 year around, though I am moving my Arizona vehicles to 15w40 Rotella T6 as it still carries an "S" rating, we will have to see how that works.
Note that the reason VW didn't recommend that multigrades be used at higher ambient temperatures is because the multigrades of the time broke down slowly in use, with high the high temps of the VW engine accelerating the process. There are notes in the VW manuals for several years saying multigrades are not recommend, but we are not running SC and SD oils any more so that doesn't apply as much today.
Still best to run a synthetic in my mind as they are less bothered by the heat. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
pierrox
Samba Member
Joined: March 06, 2013
Posts: 258
Location: Paris, London, The Alps, North Carolina
|
| Posted: Mon Mar 18, 2024 2:04 pm Post subject: Re: Official "What oil / additives should I use" topic |
|
|
My other bus (in France) runs on 15w50 Motul 300V. It's the best thing available in Europe - totally overkill for a mildly modified engine but hey, love has no boundaries. It's a synthetic oil meant for older racing cars. So it deals very well with heat transportation unlike most regular synth oils.
Bus has an oil gauge and it sits at 3 bars at 55mph cruising speed - roughly 3000rpm. So perfect recommended pressure. And it never goes above 95°C.
I've seen people running this oil in over heating engines at 120°C+ without losing any pressure unlike other oils.
I'll probably end up adding a gauge to the US bus. Pressure is almost more important than temperature.
_________________
Our bus is on Instagram
instagram.com/biencuitbus |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
MuzzcoVW
Samba Member
Joined: February 21, 2018
Posts: 1477
Location: Westfield, MA.
|
| Posted: Thu Apr 04, 2024 8:41 am Post subject: Re: Official "What oil / additives should I use" topic |
|
|
| pierrox wrote: |
Interesting you say this. I have the original manual to my French bus (1600cc upright engine) and their recommandations are different from yours:
They do recommend SAE30 but the temperature window is pretty narrow. And they recommend multigrade too, and it's 15W50. They even emphasize that using 5w20 should be done with caution especially if the outside temp is above their recommandation.
So I think 20w50 in an old engine is probably not a bad option. And I just got some VR1 Classic (or whatever it's called) and it should be fine. |
My problem with that chart is that 68F is considered tropical... that, and oils have changed a great deal since that was printed |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Wildthings
Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2005
Posts: 50356
|
| Posted: Thu Apr 04, 2024 1:09 pm Post subject: Re: Official "What oil / additives should I use" topic |
|
|
This is the chart in the owner's manual for a 1970 model. For general use VW recommended 20w20 up to 68°F and 30wt for warmer temps. Their oil pressure recommendation is set using 30wt at ~160°F, where you should see a minimum of ~10 psi per 1000 RPM. Note that today's oils are a vast improvement over the oils of 1970 giving longer life with more resistance to heat degradation, with a straight 30wt giving similar performance to a 15w30 synthetic.
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
kimkinzie
Samba Member
Joined: December 12, 2021
Posts: 145
Location: Maui, HI
|
| Posted: Wed Apr 17, 2024 9:14 am Post subject: Re: Official "What oil / additives should I use" topic |
|
|
| scottyrocks wrote: |
Okay, so I actually finally read all 232 pages (okay, call me a glutton for punishment], and the most important information, afaic, came from this link:
https://540ratblog.wordpress.com/2013/06/20/motor-oil-wear-test-ranking/
so that, most of all, made this thread a worthwhile (re]read.
This blog has been mentioned here a number of times, and summarized very well a few pages back by @Lingwendil.
540 RAT, the writer of the linked blog, in addition to having a bunch of credentials and practical experience, bases his writings on scientific experimentation. It also makes a lot of sense. My comments, below, are based on the blog, and his scientific testing, in particular. For further details, see the blog.
|
The blog presents the oil selections in a ranked list, which appeals to one's sense of making a quality choice, spurred by the never ending quest for the 'BEST'. I realize that there is much debate surrounding ZDDP additives and testing methodologies. Perhaps the most interesting aspect the author drives home is during the quick reference / introduction and recommendations in section 37 for air cooled vehicles:
| 540 Rat wrote: |
– Water cooled engines are capable of controlling their oil temperatures under normal operating conditions, which can allow using thinner oils, if following the recommendations just above.
– Air cooled engines cannot control their oil temperature reliably, and should use an oil with a HOT viscosity rating of 50 or 60.
Motor oil becomes thinner and thinner, as its temperature becomes hotter and hotter (it does NOT get thicker as it gets hotter, as some people mistakenly believe, due to their confusion over the labeled viscosity ratings). As oil becomes hotter and thinner, the oil pressure and the oil’s wear protection capability DECREASE. So, using a thick oil in air cooled engines to begin with, prevents the oil from becoming so dangerously thin under extreme conditions, that it could damage the engine. In other words, using thick motor oil in air cooled engines, provides a higher margin of safety.
SUMMARY/CONCLUSION:
In air cooled engines, I recommend using thick hot rated motor oils such as 5W50, 10W50, 15W50, 20W50, 10W60 or 15W60 for the best engine protection.
|
_________________
'69 Ghia |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Wildthings
Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2005
Posts: 50356
|
| Posted: Wed Apr 17, 2024 12:49 pm Post subject: Re: Official "What oil / additives should I use" topic |
|
|
| kimkinzie wrote: |
| scottyrocks wrote: |
Okay, so I actually finally read all 232 pages (okay, call me a glutton for punishment], and the most important information, afaic, came from this link:
https://540ratblog.wordpress.com/2013/06/20/motor-oil-wear-test-ranking/
so that, most of all, made this thread a worthwhile (re]read.
This blog has been mentioned here a number of times, and summarized very well a few pages back by @Lingwendil.
540 RAT, the writer of the linked blog, in addition to having a bunch of credentials and practical experience, bases his writings on scientific experimentation. It also makes a lot of sense. My comments, below, are based on the blog, and his scientific testing, in particular. For further details, see the blog.
|
The blog presents the oil selections in a ranked list, which appeals to one's sense of making a quality choice, spurred by the never ending quest for the 'BEST'. I realize that there is much debate surrounding ZDDP additives and testing methodologies. Perhaps the most interesting aspect the author drives home is during the quick reference / introduction and recommendations in section 37 for air cooled vehicles:
| 540 Rat wrote: |
– Water cooled engines are capable of controlling their oil temperatures under normal operating conditions, which can allow using thinner oils, if following the recommendations just above.
– Air cooled engines cannot control their oil temperature reliably, and should use an oil with a HOT viscosity rating of 50 or 60.
Motor oil becomes thinner and thinner, as its temperature becomes hotter and hotter (it does NOT get thicker as it gets hotter, as some people mistakenly believe, due to their confusion over the labeled viscosity ratings). As oil becomes hotter and thinner, the oil pressure and the oil’s wear protection capability DECREASE. So, using a thick oil in air cooled engines to begin with, prevents the oil from becoming so dangerously thin under extreme conditions, that it could damage the engine. In other words, using thick motor oil in air cooled engines, provides a higher margin of safety.
SUMMARY/CONCLUSION:
In air cooled engines, I recommend using thick hot rated motor oils such as 5W50, 10W50, 15W50, 20W50, 10W60 or 15W60 for the best engine protection.
|
|
On a stock VW aircooled engine, the oils he recommends are certainly going to make it so one doesn't have control over oil temperature as at highway speeds the oil is going to be bypassing the cooler. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
soissisc
Samba Member
Joined: April 04, 2007
Posts: 638
Location: Western Pennsylvania
|
| Posted: Wed Apr 17, 2024 1:27 pm Post subject: Re: Official "What oil / additives should I use" topic |
|
|
I always thought (perhaps wrongly) that he was talking about a lawnmower engine, or a motorcycle air cooled engine, that did not have an oil cooler. I may be wrong there though.
_________________
Mark
68 Westy
92 Jetta (oh it is retired)
99 Eurovan
05 NBC
06 Audi A3
72 Westy (I am going to fix it up) |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Wildthings
Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2005
Posts: 50356
|
| Posted: Wed Apr 17, 2024 7:17 pm Post subject: Re: Official "What oil / additives should I use" topic |
|
|
| soissisc wrote: |
| I always thought (perhaps wrongly) that he was talking about a lawnmower engine, or a motorcycle air cooled engine, that did not have an oil cooler. I may be wrong there though. |
That would make more sense. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
kimkinzie
Samba Member
Joined: December 12, 2021
Posts: 145
Location: Maui, HI
|
| Posted: Sat Apr 20, 2024 1:40 pm Post subject: Re: Official "What oil / additives should I use" topic |
|
|
| Wildthings wrote: |
| soissisc wrote: |
| I always thought (perhaps wrongly) that he was talking about a lawnmower engine, or a motorcycle air cooled engine, that did not have an oil cooler. I may be wrong there though. |
That would make more sense. |
I became interested in viscosity ratings after bringing a 1997 air-cooled Porsche 911 back to life from a 12 year slumber. The vehicle was mothballed due to expensive valve cover leaks that required an engine-out repair. BR Racing in Los Gatos did this work, and in the process switched the engine oil from Mobil 1 0w40 synthetic oil (recommended on engine sticker) to Motol 20w50 conventional. They indicated that there was much racing success with this approach, especially in the area of temperature control.
My presumption is that @420Rat was talking about aircooled Porsche vehicles as well as motorcycles, in our case extrapolating it to flat-4 VWs. His recommendation seems inline with much research that seems to indicate that higher viscosities are beneficial for piston ring seal at operating temperatures. This video below does a lot to dispel myths associated with higher weight oils:
Link
_________________
'69 Ghia |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Wildthings
Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2005
Posts: 50356
|
| Posted: Sat Apr 20, 2024 8:54 pm Post subject: Re: Official "What oil / additives should I use" topic |
|
|
| kimkinzie wrote: |
| Wildthings wrote: |
| soissisc wrote: |
| I always thought (perhaps wrongly) that he was talking about a lawnmower engine, or a motorcycle air cooled engine, that did not have an oil cooler. I may be wrong there though. |
That would make more sense. |
I became interested in viscosity ratings after bringing a 1997 air-cooled Porsche 911 back to life from a 12 year slumber. The vehicle was mothballed due to expensive valve cover leaks that required an engine-out repair. BR Racing in Los Gatos did this work, and in the process switched the engine oil from Mobil 1 0w40 synthetic oil (recommended on engine sticker) to Motol 20w50 conventional. They indicated that there was much racing success with this approach, especially in the area of temperature control.
My presumption is that @420Rat was talking about aircooled Porsche vehicles as well as motorcycles, in our case extrapolating it to flat-4 VWs. His recommendation seems inline with much research that seems to indicate that higher viscosities are beneficial for piston ring seal at operating temperatures. This video below does a lot to dispel myths associated with higher weight oils:
|
VW engines are designed to provide the oil viscosity they need be allowing the oil to bypass the cooler until the viscosity drops to what the engineers wanted. Use thicker oil and the engine just lets the oil get hotter and hotter until the viscosity gets low enough. Oil that is dumped to the sump without going through the cooler does not tend to carry the heat away from the bearing and pistons very effectively either.
If you have loose bearings and need 20w50 to get the oil pressure up to spec, that is one thing, but if you oil pressure is fine using 5w30 then there is no gain to running thicker oil. Interesting I just got a new engine for my riding mower today and looked at the oil recommendation. The chart showed that either STRAIGHT 30wt or 5w30 SYNTHETIC was good to above 104°F, though they are probably not thinking of the 115°+ that is common here on summer afternoons. They mention that 5w30 and 10w30 DINO oils may not be able to handle ambient temperatures in excess of 80°F without an increase in oil usage. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Schatzievw
Samba Member
Joined: November 11, 2022
Posts: 75
Location: NC
|
| Posted: Yesterday 4:28 pm Post subject: Re: Official "What oil / additives should I use" topic |
|
|
| recently resurrected a 1600 DP that had been sitting out in the weather for many years. The sludge in the crankcase and rocker arms was horrendous. I tried MO and diesel oil as a flush but it had little effect at all. So I filled it up with the supertech and done 3 oil changes over 1500 miles. Yesterday I pulled the valve covers to check valve lash. What I saw blew me away! Shiny,like new aluminum heads and clean rocker arm assemblies. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
vamram 
Samba Member
Joined: March 08, 2012
Posts: 7313
Location: NOVA
|
| Posted: Yesterday 4:46 pm Post subject: Re: Official "What oil / additives should I use" topic |
|
|
| Schatzievw wrote: |
| recently resurrected a 1600 DP that had been sitting out in the weather for many years. The sludge in the crankcase and rocker arms was horrendous. I tried MO and diesel oil as a flush but it had little effect at all. So I filled it up with the supertech and done 3 oil changes over 1500 miles. Yesterday I pulled the valve covers to check valve lash. What I saw blew me away! Shiny,like new aluminum heads and clean rocker arm assemblies. |
Pictures...?
_________________
Eventually, "we are what we pretend to be.’”
Give peace a chance - Stop Russian-Soviet Aggression!!
'74 Super 9/16 - present, in refurb process.
'73 Super - 6/18 - Present - Daily Driver!
'75 Super Le Grande...waiting it's turn in line behind '74.
Click to view image
Save the Supers!! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Glenn
Mr. 010
Joined: December 25, 2001
Posts: 76963
Location: Sneaking up behind you
|
| Posted: Yesterday 4:49 pm Post subject: Re: Official "What oil / additives should I use" topic |
|
|
My concern is, does all of the sludge flush out the strainer plate or does some get into the oil cooler and oil passages and cause a blockage.
_________________
Glenn
74 Beetle Specs | 74 Beetle Restoration | 2180cc Engine
"You may not get what you pay for, but you always pay for what you get"
Member #1009
#BlueSquare |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
