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60DoubleTurd
Type 3 Contributor
Joined: May 24, 2003
Posts: 1925
Location: Ca
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 Posted: Fri Jul 08, 2005 6:11 pm Post subject: 64 S? |
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http://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=196506
If its an S why does it come with an N motor?? And its not an early 64 either as it doesnt have PBD!! Just wanted something to talk about!! 
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Frank
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66 L87 Variant Pigalle
SBS #17
Last edited by 60DoubleTurd on Fri Jul 08, 2005 8:40 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Russ Wolfe
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Joined: October 08, 2004
Posts: 25187
Location: Central Iowa
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| Posted: Fri Jul 08, 2005 6:33 pm Post subject: |
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"S" is an engine designation, not a body style. The "S" is for a dual carb domed piston engine.
Looks like he has trouble with the sun roof drains on all fo corners, from the rust on the front A pillars too.
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notchboy
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Joined: April 27, 2002
Posts: 22466
Location: Escondido CA
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| Posted: Fri Jul 08, 2005 7:45 pm Post subject: |
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How common was it Russ, for a dealer/VW repair shop to compleetly swap a motor out with another? Like if you came in with a car needing a rebuild. Did they just swap it out with a ready long block? Or even a turn key? I know its common to have this done today and only people wanting original motors(as sold) to remain in their number match car to be rebuilt and put back in. I had always thought this to be an easier way to do a swap quicker. And ontop of that the ready supply of parts and motors to do it with. Then I supose a mechanic could do the rebuild to the bad motor in the down time and have it ready for the next customer.
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Jason "notchboy" Weigel
1964 1500 S
1964 T34 S Convertible
1977 Westfalia Camper pop-top |
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Russ Wolfe
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Joined: October 08, 2004
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Location: Central Iowa
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| Posted: Fri Jul 08, 2005 7:59 pm Post subject: |
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Factory rebuilt engines were quite common. They were refered to as "KD" engines. They were marked at the factory as rebuilts, but the double circular arrow, and there was an "X" in the area of the serial number.
The car in this thread would NOT be a factory rebuilt, as they were exact exchange basis only. If it was a 1500S engine coming out, it had to be a 1500S engine going back in. The factory would not take a different core back.
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60DoubleTurd
Type 3 Contributor
Joined: May 24, 2003
Posts: 1925
Location: Ca
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| Posted: Fri Jul 08, 2005 8:40 pm Post subject: |
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That was my point. Its an S car but its not an S motor. Get it!!
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Frank
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66 L87 Variant Pigalle
SBS #17 |
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Russ Wolfe
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| Posted: Fri Jul 08, 2005 8:46 pm Post subject: |
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And my point is, the dealer did not install that engine as a factory exchange. Some one would have had to pay a BIG core charge.
Someplace, there would have been a record of the engine number of the original engine.
http://classicvw.org/gallery/The-ghia/kscan_0001_001?full=1
That is one the one for my '64 "S" Ghia.
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notchboy
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Location: Escondido CA
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| Posted: Fri Jul 08, 2005 10:59 pm Post subject: |
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I always wondered what an official VW service facility would have done. The car above was eithor changed over to single carb or someone put a good runner in that was a single carber. I bet it was the later. 
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Jason "notchboy" Weigel
1964 1500 S
1964 T34 S Convertible
1977 Westfalia Camper pop-top |
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60DoubleTurd
Type 3 Contributor
Joined: May 24, 2003
Posts: 1925
Location: Ca
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| Posted: Sat Jul 09, 2005 10:21 am Post subject: |
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Ok Russ I'm not being a smart ass I just want to know... If an "S" was a motor thing and not a "body" style then all the other goodies like side trim, side markers, non painted reflector housings, over riders, interior being different, clock, etc.... arent part of the "S"??? I thought the "S" was the top model not just a dual carbed motor? Again, I am being serious. You worked for them for years so I want to know your take on this.
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Frank
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66 L87 Variant Pigalle
SBS #17 |
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hoss
Samba Member
Joined: May 01, 2003
Posts: 788
Location: San Jose, CA
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| Posted: Sat Jul 09, 2005 11:23 am Post subject: |
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I just checked the M-Code listing and according the list... M-Code 3 was for a single-carb engine instead of a dual-carb engine. I suppose it was possible in this case...
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Single carburetor engine instead of twin carburetor engine
from Engine No. 255 340
(for model 343-346 up to Chassis No. 345 220 883)
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Russ Wolfe
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Location: Central Iowa
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| Posted: Sat Jul 09, 2005 1:44 pm Post subject: |
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| notchboy wrote: |
| How common was it Russ, for a dealer/VW repair shop to compleetly swap a motor out with another? Like if you came in with a car needing a rebuild. Did they just swap it out with a ready long block? Or even a turn key? I know its common to have this done today and only people wanting original motors(as sold) to remain in their number match car to be rebuilt and put back in. I had always thought this to be an easier way to do a swap quicker. And ontop of that the ready supply of parts and motors to do it with. Then I supose a mechanic could do the rebuild to the bad motor in the down time and have it ready for the next customer. |
I used to keep a spare 40hp T-1 long block sitting around. Rebuilt and ready to go. If someone called me for one, I put the tin work on for the model they needed. And I priced it either new, or used. Depending if you wanted a guarantee. But it was the same engine. Used was usually the one that had been running in my Baja. Used it as a test stand.
I think the one in that ad, has just had the engine swapped out. Notchboy, don't the single carb's have a straight intake port, while the S has the canted one?? Or are there 2 different heads and intakes for single ports???
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60DoubleTurd
Type 3 Contributor
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| Posted: Sat Jul 09, 2005 11:00 pm Post subject: |
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As far as I know there were 1500 single ports with a single side draft carb and 1600 dual ports with dual carbs. So there is only one intake for single and one intake for double. I am talking early cars of course. Once you get to 68 and beyond I dont really care what they did. They invented the fat chicks and interest falls off at that point for me. 
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Frank
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66 L87 Variant Pigalle
SBS #17 |
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Tram
Samba Socialist
Joined: May 02, 2003
Posts: 22729
Location: Still Feelin' the Bern- Once you've felt it you can't un- feel it.
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| Posted: Sat Jul 09, 2005 11:13 pm Post subject: |
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| Russ Wolfe wrote: |
Factory rebuilt engines were quite common. They were refered to as "KD" engines. They were marked at the factory as rebuilts, but the double circular arrow, and there was an "X" in the area of the serial number.
The car in this thread would NOT be a factory rebuilt, as they were exact exchange basis only. If it was a 1500S engine coming out, it had to be a 1500S engine going back in. The factory would not take a different core back. |
EXACTLY. The factory were really anal Nazis about this. They charged the dealer a very heavy core penalty if it wasn't the correct engine, or even if it didn't have correct parts.
Incidentally, I've seen a few Home Market (Grey Market) 66 and 67 cars with single- port single carb engines. I think it might have been available that way until the end of the line.
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Tram
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Location: Still Feelin' the Bern- Once you've felt it you can't un- feel it.
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| Posted: Sat Jul 09, 2005 11:22 pm Post subject: |
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| 62type3square wrote: |
| Ok Russ I'm not being a smart ass I just want to know... If an "S" was a motor thing and not a "body" style then all the other goodies like side trim, side markers, non painted reflector housings, over riders, interior being different, clock, etc.... arent part of the "S"??? I thought the "S" was the top model not just a dual carbed motor? Again, I am being serious. You worked for them for years so I want to know your take on this. |
You got it as a "package"- all or nothing. "S" came with the dual carb domed piston engine and all the deluxe trim. In Germany, there was a cottage industry that would "upgrade" your "N" model to an "S" by doing the trim upgrades. You could get outside only, or you could also have the "N" interior swapped out for an "S". Germans are cheap shits. I know from experience. In Germany, you could get, for example, an '87 Audi 5000 CS or Tubo Quattro with velour interior, no A/C, manually controlled heat, manual windows, and manual sunroof. That's just how the Germans are. They'll buy a basic model to "save" money, and then pimp it.
If I recall, in about 1965 they came out with a 1500 "E" (for "Economy" in this case, NOT "Einspritzung", or Fuel Injection as it was on 1600 models) model that had "luxury" trim but had the cheap and economical 1500 Normal engine. 1500-E's are probably the rarest of all the 1500 series.
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60DoubleTurd
Type 3 Contributor
Joined: May 24, 2003
Posts: 1925
Location: Ca
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| Posted: Sat Jul 09, 2005 11:32 pm Post subject: |
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I've heard of a lot of "E's" in Canada. Thats just what I hear though. A little birdy told me!!
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Frank
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66 L87 Variant Pigalle
SBS #17 |
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EverettB 
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| Posted: Sun Jul 10, 2005 12:37 am Post subject: |
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My '63 Sunroof Notch (built in '62) was sort of made into an "S" before it left the dealership in '64. The original owner's said it was "upgraded" when the '64s came out. Side trim was added, the side markers were repositioned, and some other S trim was added like a front beak.
They also had an "S" engine put into it too because another guy was buying a new '64 "S" but he was taking it to Turkey. Turkey = crappy gas so he wanted the lower compression single carb. engine. They were happy to get the new, more powerful S engine for free!
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Russ Wolfe
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Location: Central Iowa
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| Posted: Sun Jul 10, 2005 8:43 am Post subject: |
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| EverettB wrote: |
My '63 Sunroof Notch (built in '62) was sort of made into an "S" before it left the dealership in '64. The original owner's said it was "upgraded" when the '64s came out. Side trim was added, the side markers were repositioned, and some other S trim was added like a front beak.
They also had an "S" engine put into it too because another guy was buying a new '64 "S" but he was taking it to Turkey. Turkey = crappy gas so he wanted the lower compression single carb. engine. They were happy to get the new, more powerful S engine for free! |
That would explain a "dealer swap".
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notchboy
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Location: Escondido CA
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| Posted: Tue Jul 12, 2005 12:57 pm Post subject: |
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Only the very early SP single carb motors had the flat 40 horse type heads Russ. They dropped that late 62 early 63 and went with the bigger, canted more common SP found today.
This car were talking about could of had any one of our explinations done to it. Thats what makes it fun. As far as Ns or Es - who is the rarer? I think they are pretty equal at this point. Has anyone ever seen eithor driving on the roads in the last 2 years???
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| t3kg wrote: |
OK, this thread is over. You win. |
Jason "notchboy" Weigel
1964 1500 S
1964 T34 S Convertible
1977 Westfalia Camper pop-top |
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63SunNotch
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| Posted: Tue Jul 12, 2005 3:25 pm Post subject: |
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No can't say that I have.
But I have seen a UFO!
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