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Abscate 
Samba Member
Joined: October 05, 2014
Posts: 23014
Location: NYC/Upstate/ROW
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 Posted: Fri Apr 26, 2024 2:57 am Post subject: Re: Electric vehicles are bad |
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| Quote: |
| Charging a single EV draws as much energy as two average households combined, according to Toronto Hydro |
Rehash
Average household 33kWhr per day
Average commute per day consumes 10kw hr
10 < 33
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oprn
Samba Member
Joined: November 13, 2016
Posts: 13691
Location: Western Canada
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| Posted: Fri Apr 26, 2024 5:57 am Post subject: Re: Electric vehicles are bad |
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| busdaddy wrote: |
| heimlich wrote: |
| Why do they still call them zero emissions? |
Because it makes them feel special and hoity toity, AKA smug. |
It's a misnomer. They should be more correctly labeled "shifted emissions" vehicles because the emissions are now to my backyard where the power plant is. Kind of like sending your dog to the neighbor's yard to poop and bragging about how your dog is a special "odorless" breed.
Oh ya! One day in the future the neighbors will figure out how to scoop all that poop back over the fence where it belongs... enjoy the smug while you can...
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TDCTDI
Samba Advocatus Diaboli
Joined: August 31, 2013
Posts: 13137
Location: North Carolina
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| Posted: Fri Apr 26, 2024 8:35 am Post subject: Re: Electric vehicles are bad |
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Ford loses $40,000+ on every EV it sold…
https://www.cnn.com/2024/04/24/business/ford-earni...%20company's%20electric%20vehicle%20sales.
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Everybody born before 1975 has a story, good, bad, or indifferent, about a VW.
GOFUNDYOURSELF, quit asking everyone to do it for you!
An air cooled VW will make you a hoarder.
Do something, anything, to your project every day, and you will eventually complete it. |
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Shonandb
Samba Member
Joined: January 12, 2019
Posts: 1553
Location: Vancouver, BC
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| Posted: Fri Apr 26, 2024 11:49 am Post subject: Re: Electric vehicles are bad |
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| oprn wrote: |
| busdaddy wrote: |
| heimlich wrote: |
| Why do they still call them zero emissions? |
Because it makes them feel special and hoity toity, AKA smug. |
It's a misnomer. They should be more correctly labeled "shifted emissions" vehicles because the emissions are now to my backyard where the power plant is. Kind of like sending your dog to the neighbor's yard to poop and bragging about how your dog is a special "odorless" breed.
Oh ya! One day in the future the neighbors will figure out how to scoop all that poop back over the fence where it belongs... enjoy the smug while you can... |
Shifted emissions sounds appropriate but maybe we can adopt the O&G Industry terminology and say Upstream (battery materials extraction phase), Downstream (battery manufacturing/assembly through to EV charging & regular use phase), and End of Use (recycling/disposal phase) Emissions?
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76 Westy with a 2.5L Subaru SOHC + Vanagon (010) Automatic Transaxle
Build & Trip Thread: https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=758760
Previous 1973 Panel Bus:
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oprn
Samba Member
Joined: November 13, 2016
Posts: 13691
Location: Western Canada
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| Posted: Fri Apr 26, 2024 1:22 pm Post subject: Re: Electric vehicles are bad |
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I'll buy that!
The "zero emissions" label is pure unadulterated bovine rectal excretion!
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Last edited by oprn on Sat Apr 27, 2024 6:21 am; edited 1 time in total |
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busdaddy
Samba Member
Joined: February 12, 2004
Posts: 51962
Location: Surrey B.C. Canada, but thinking of Ukraine
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| Posted: Fri Apr 26, 2024 2:53 pm Post subject: Re: Electric vehicles are bad |
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Or sum it up with "Deferred emissions"?, as in "someone elses problem while I pretend to save the planet"? Sometimes virtue signalling requires sticking your fingers in your ears and saying "lalalalala".
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finster
Samba Member
Joined: May 26, 2012
Posts: 8871
Location: north o' the border
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| Posted: Tue Apr 30, 2024 2:49 am Post subject: Re: Electric vehicles are bad |
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it's all 'green' even those massive quarries... 
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-68896707
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raygreenwood
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Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 22142
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Tue Apr 30, 2024 11:24 am Post subject: Re: Electric vehicles are bad |
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And not even readily mentioned.....is the fact that even without the batteries....the motor magnets in EV's and wind turbine generators require a large amount of rare earths like Neodymium and Dysprosium and Lanthanum.
Until just recently, the US produced almost none of these three metals (among other rare earths).
This document was from 2020 so its out of date but is interesting.
https://pubs.usgs.gov/periodicals/mcs2020/mcs2020-rare-earths.pdf
This article says we "may" start catching up....if the current regime does not control it out of business. Keep in mind that this article was December of 2021.
https://www.mining.com/usa-rare-earth-to-produce-n...seodymium.
A later article about updates at the Round Top mountain mine in Texas
https://tmrcorp.com/news/press_releases/index.php?content_id=247
All fo that said, even though having the rare earths her insted of :there" is better....its still nasty, fossil fuel swilling work.
The EV will remain a coal and natural gas powered device for years to come. Ray |
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KTPhil
Samba Member
Joined: April 06, 2006
Posts: 34912
Location: Conejo Valley, CA
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| Posted: Tue Apr 30, 2024 11:37 am Post subject: Re: Electric vehicles are bad |
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Losses are easy to show with voodoo financial gymnastics. Done often as April 15th nears...
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&Dan
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finster
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Joined: May 26, 2012
Posts: 8871
Location: north o' the border
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| Posted: Mon May 13, 2024 11:12 am Post subject: Re: Electric vehicles are bad |
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stealth ev - an idea so bad it's good
https://fb.watch/s0ik3DTpgT/
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chrisflstf
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Joined: February 10, 2004
Posts: 3621
Location: San Diego
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| Posted: Tue May 14, 2024 10:40 am Post subject: Re: Electric vehicles are bad |
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| Sounds like solid sate batteries will be much better, but still 5 years away or so |
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raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 22142
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Wed May 15, 2024 9:36 am Post subject: Re: Electric vehicles are bad |
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| chrisflstf wrote: |
| Sounds like solid sate batteries will be much better, but still 5 years away or so |
At least.
To be exact, they could be viable anytime....or never and NOT because they are not possible.
100% of solid state batteries are a "printed" product. Most would assume "3D printed" and some parts of them are but largely thats not the case.
Most of this is a combination of screen printing, stencil printing and some auto-syringe CNC application.
I work squarely in the middle of this industry but my projects (at the moment) are smaller form factor.
Solid state batteries like those Toyota are working on are generally refered to by many as "thin-film" batteries.
The gist is that with thicker plate style batteries and even the common battery we use everyday like alkaline batteries, whatever electrolyte your battery uses must be able to flow toward and into and readily react with ALL of the metal reaction layers. Once you are done drawing current and the battery is being recharged there should be some flow back.
This is so difficult to accomplish because even in standard AA's and other common batteries, typically only about 30-40% of the metals that are contained within the form of the battery ever get used. Once the electrolyte flows away from one area it never really gets back into contact with large portions of the battery.
The way thin film printed batteries work....generalizing here....we print a thin UNIFORM layer of metallic paste (might be carbon, zinc, silver alloy, manganese etc.)....maybe 50-80 microns thick, then another layer of something else that might have very small, exact printed spots missing (producing vias or access tunnels through one layer to another)...then we print a lyer of electrolyte...then a printed or film spacer (again with pores or vias)....then repeat to form a stack of multiple layers of this....or you can leave them in single layers and connect in series or parallel.
The object is that the layers are very thin and the electrlyte only has to migrate scant microns to contact and soak through all of the metal layers completely.
A layer of contact/transmission wires is either printed or overlaid during converting/processing/lamination
So these are very efficient batteries utilizing virtually all of the reactive metal content so they need a lot less of it compared to standard designs.
The problems:
This process is very, very hard and detail driven. No...this cannot YET be 3D printed by precise piezo inkjets because of the particle size, reactivity and the bizzare flow rheologies these metallic inks and electrolytes have.
During screen and stencil printing the process gets very exacting and has literally hundreds of variables (over a 1000 known variables in some cases). If you get bubbles...it creates voids and causes intrerlayer shorting. If you get dust in the printed material it creates holes and creates interlayer shorting. If you get excessive texture it wastes a lot of material and contaminates other layers and changes the efficiency or fails it altogether.....all of this combined can create poor shelf life.
And, very subtle changes in the purity of raw materials (the metals and solvents that go into the printed conductive/reative inks)....create rheological changes that can stop the printing process altogether.
This has not even gotten into the drying and curing routines. A lot of these materials and chemistries require temperatures that are beyond what the "affordable" substrates can handle. Lots of unique methods being worked on. Then there are the assembly issues.
All of this must be automated to produce X parts per hour at Y yield/efficiency (meaning scrap rates must be low) and Z performance reliability....or it literally cannot be affordable to produce.
I have spent the last 7 months working on a thin film battery printing project in Arizona.
There is "0" guarantee that large scale solid state batteries will be successful anytime soon. They could be....or not.
There have already been successful industrial thin film printed battery piles over the past 10 years....but they are just not affordable for mass scale yet. They go nto very expensive equipment like shipboard or explosive environment electric forklifts.
Ray |
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Dusty1
Samba Member
Joined: April 16, 2004
Posts: 1692
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| Posted: Wed May 15, 2024 11:47 am Post subject: Re: Electric vehicles are bad |
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There is always some pie in the sky technology just beyond the horizon that will save us all. Hassle is developing and perfecting emerging technology tends to keep a fully functional version of anything new just beyond the horizon.
I'm a big fan of optimizing and perfecting existing tech. Lotta wiggle room there.
I was just in Lancaster, PA. Saw a traffic jam of Amish buggies at a crossroads. You can keep your silly Teslas. As long as there's grass and water, your ass is the only limit to the range of a horse and buggy.
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Abscate
Samba Member
Joined: October 05, 2014
Posts: 23014
Location: NYC/Upstate/ROW
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| Posted: Thu May 16, 2024 3:17 am Post subject: Re: Electric vehicles are bad |
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Ask anyone who rides what the operating cost of equine units is and get back to us here.
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oprn
Samba Member
Joined: November 13, 2016
Posts: 13691
Location: Western Canada
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| Posted: Thu May 16, 2024 6:06 am Post subject: Re: Electric vehicles are bad |
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I can tell you having owned horses for several years that like any other hobby/interest it is totally up to you how much it costs.
We never paid over $900 for any horse, we live on 4.5 acres of land so we saved lawn mower gas money in the summer with the horses grazing it off. We bought a well used horse trailer for $1500 and I hayed old farm sites and ditches for winter feed with older second hand machinery either bought for cheap or donated by neighbors back when we did 4H calves. Bought a few pails of oats from the neighbor.
No riding lessons (joined the 4H horse club), learned to trim hooves, bought 2nd hand tack and saddles. In the end we spent no more than we would have for a couple used quads for the kids to ride.
And I must say that the interactions we had with another living species with their unique personalities was priceless for all of us!
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kingkarmann
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Joined: November 05, 2003
Posts: 4196
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| Posted: Thu May 16, 2024 6:35 am Post subject: Re: Electric vehicles are bad |
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| oprn wrote: |
And I must say that the interactions we had with another living species with their unique personalities was priceless for all of us! |
I will add that I find horses (and many other four legged friends) much preferable to most humans. |
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oprn
Samba Member
Joined: November 13, 2016
Posts: 13691
Location: Western Canada
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| Posted: Fri May 17, 2024 4:22 am Post subject: Re: Electric vehicles are bad |
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"The more people I deal with the more I like my dog!"
We had one horse with a wicked sense of humor. When I was out in the dark, shutting in the chickens, taking a wee, turning off lights, whatever - she would sneak up behind me silent as a ghost, put her nose 4" from my ear and - SNORT!!! How a 1500 pound animal can move that silently I have no idea!
All I can say is thank God I have a strong ticker!! 
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finster
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Joined: May 26, 2012
Posts: 8871
Location: north o' the border
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| Posted: Fri May 17, 2024 6:51 am Post subject: Re: Electric vehicles are bad |
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horses are not a viable option, we don't want to return to the days of victorian 'crossing sweepers'!
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KTPhil
Samba Member
Joined: April 06, 2006
Posts: 34912
Location: Conejo Valley, CA
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| Posted: Fri May 17, 2024 7:18 am Post subject: Re: Electric vehicles are bad |
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| finster wrote: |
horses are not a viable option, we don't want to return to the days of victorian 'crossing sweepers'!
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https://danszczesny.substack.com/p/the-great-horse-manure-crisis-of
I wonder what the greenhouse gasses released were?
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