Which paint to use?

[jimwebby]

Hello,

I am planning a home spray job on my VW based speedster kit.
Currently, the body is finished in PPG primer and has been blocked to 400 grit.

My question is does anyone have any recommended paints that they have used themselves with success? I want to use a single stage urethane enamel as this looks the closest to the original paint jobs from the 60's era (IMO).

I have looked at both PPG DCC and OMNI MAE and do not know what the difference is except the price ($180 vs. $70 per gallon). Obviously, there has to be a difference, but I'm buggered if I know what it is.

Are there any other manufacturers whose single stage enamels are worth a look?

I don't mind paying $180 per gallon, but would prefer to pay $70 per gallon if there will be no difference to my home sprayed vehicle.

Cheers,

Jim.

[3Bugs]

When I inquired about the same thing I was told on more than one occasion that the OMNI was more a collision repair and fleet paint not really intended for a complete paint job. Could have been a sales pitch for all I know but in reading the spec sheets for both of them I rather got the same impression. PPG plugs the OMNI as the “Value Priced” paint as opposed to DCC as “Premium Quality”. Here is their web site with all the paint spec sheets in PDF format. http://www.ppg.com/cr-refinish/phase1/frmProductInfo.asp
This site has a good PPG comparison that my help in your decisions and it includes pricing. http://www.autocolorlibrary.com/cmg/cmg.html

Paint consumption information:
For what its worth, I used 3 quarts of color and less than 2 quarts of clear per car after sealing, fill priming, and sealing again. In addition, I mixed my last coat of color 50/50 with clear and then applied 3 more coats of clear. I painted inside and out, all surfaces except on the areas that were going to have carpet and headliner I just kept the sealer coat as a final. I sprayed with a DeVilbiss 670 Plus, which acts like a conventional spray gun when spraying but provides about 50% to 60% better efficiency than a conventional gun. I tried HVLP but I am not experienced enough to get them to work as well as the other not to mention that my 7HP 80 Gal compressor still was not enough power for the gun to work as it was designed to.

I painted in my garage so there was going to be some particulate in the paint causing me to spray more coats so I could sand out the dust nibs. I seem to remember applying 6 or 7 coats of color and 4 of the clear. The first color coat was not a full wet coat but subsequent coats were. I did not apply a first full coat because I was concerned with solvent popping and wanted to make that correction sooner rather than later. Once I was assured the solvent type and mix ratio was not going to cause popping, I painted the remaining 5 or 6 coats normally.

I color sanded the base coat then applied the clear then color sanded the clear then polished. Applying paint and color sanding helps create a real professional paint job because you sand out all your screw-ups. The paint job looks very deep and consistent with no orange peel or sags.

Cost:
The last time I purchased from my local PPG supplier I paid around $50 a quart and the DCX61 hardener was around $55 a quart. Expect to pay close to 1/3rd as much for the hardener when you use DCC. Depending on which OMNI you use, there is no hardener or it's packed with it. However, OMNI urethane requires you purchase a less expensive hardener than DCX61 that cost about $45 a quart.

Original Finish:
I used PPG 2002 Concept clear over the DCC. I forget how much it costs but I remember having to purchase a gallon. I think I used about two quarts to do the job and uses the same hardener as the DCC. The nice thing about this clear is you can get an additive to match a particular shine. My 61 Ghia has sort of a shiny eggshell clear as opposed to the modern high gloss clears. Looks much more original that way. The DCC is available in every color; however, if you live in a low VOC area as I do some colors may not be available to you. However, I took my glove box in to have the original gray-black duplicated for my 72. Originally if I had requested it as LD43 (VW color) it was not sellable but my dealer used a color eye to match the paint and I was successful in getting LD43 in DCC. It was an exact match.

In conclusion, I guess it is what you want to get out of your paint job. In my case I was doing pan-off restorations and after all the time and money I put into these cars I could not see cutting corners on the one part of the car that gets looked at the most.


Hope this helps you.
_________________
3Bugs
Well, actually a 67 Bug, 72 Super, 61 Ghia and a 2004 Beetle Vert (sorry)

[keifernet]

Jim... what kind of gun and what tip size etc. do you have?

Omni is considered "used car" grade paint, but I have shot a few cars with it and it's not that bad.... I mean sure it probably won't last as many years as PPG's better brand, ( like Delstar... I like Delstar but it's alot more expensive nowdays) but consider this... are you a good painter? any chance you could screw it up ? ( no offense, just asking your personal view of your skill level)

Is the car going to be washed waxed and garaged alot of the time? Then the Omni would hold out longer if taken care of.

One thing for sure if you go with Omni (or any single stage acrylic enamel) get the "urethane hardner" additive. This makes the paint have a higher gloss and more durability. Basically turns AE into a catalized urethane.

For Delstar it is 'DXR-80' and I forget the # for the Omni but ask them...they have it.

The yellow vert in my gallery shots is PPG Delstar AE

Base coat / clear coat is very popular but for alot of "do it yourselfers" the single stage AE is alot more forgiving and easier ( IMO) to spray and get good results.

[Bklyn63]

For a beginner ,I would use PPG concept single stage acrylic urethane.

single stage is easy to spray because its one step compared to base coat and clear coat of other paints.

its also very forgiving. easy to blend and spray.
just put like 4-5 coats and wet sand to a mirror like finish.


check out my ragtop installation retrofit in the readers ride section and see how easy it was for me to blend my top section to the window pillars.

[55reasons]

Does anyone here know anything (ALOT) about spray guns themselves?

In particular the SATAjet® K3™ HVLP gun?

I've been shopping around lately and it seems to offer the best versatility of the guns I've seen.

The gravity feed guns have a tendency to be a pain in the ass when painting the underside of the roof, and I'm but buying a vaccume fed unit.

[Bklyn63]

I have a sata RP which is an HVLP compliant gun...I can use it because my 60 gallon 220v compressor only puts out about 12cfm which is fine for the rp. the hvlp needs 14 or 5cfms.


I LOVE my sata..a beginner can have an awesome paint job when using it. I just did my roof section and it cam out awesome.

I paid $395 for it on autobodystore.com

[55reasons]

I was looking into the SATAjet® K3™ HVLP because it says it will spray HS primer, single stage, bc/cc, and others all using the same 1,0 tip.

I'm gonna look into the air requirements in a sec, but I think the digital inlet air pressure gauge is pretty pimp.

EDIT: 19.8 cfm is hella work on the compressor!

[Bklyn63]

1.0 is too small for primer..

youll need at least a 1.6 or 1.7 for primer..the polyester primer is thick stuff.

1.3 tip is the reccomended tip size for single stage paints base coat and clear coats.


I would get an inexpensive gun for primer.

or just get the Sata primer gun its $179.00

remember....invest once in a gun and thats it.

http://autobodystore.net/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=CTGY&Category_Code=3S

heres the link:

also, saying youll use the gun for primer then paint is ok..but its a task to clean the gun every time.

I would get independent guns.

[Big Jim]

I looked up the Sata K3 and it is really a production gun. You will need an additional pressurized paint pot to use it. The 1.0 size may be a tad small for primer but pressure fed guns use smaller tip sizes than gravity or suction feed. I think the Sata 2000 would be a better choice. I second the idea of a separate primer gun. It takes a lot of time to really clean out a gun that has been used for primer (especially if you choose a K3 with a pot since it will have hoses and all). The Sharpe FineX is an offshore copy of a Sata and can be had for about $90. It looks like you could get both a 2000 and a FineX for less than a single K3.
I wouldn't want all the extra hassles of a pressure fed gun just for the occasional inside of a roof. I do have a Sharpe HVLP with a 2 quart pot but it mostly sits on the shelf and collects dust.

About Omni: I have talked with a couple of custom painters who use it exclusively and love it. I've used it a couple of times and find it very easy to spray. The only caution seems to be it is a little thinner than some paints so good technique is important. Even coats and proper flash times are required but you should be watching that anyway.
For a bug, the cost difference will not be as great between it and the premium line so you may want to splurge. I'm using Omni for some repairs on my Thing and I'm happy with it. I will almost certainly use it for the complete repaint next year.

[Bklyn63]

Jim, personally from for another $80 I would DEFINITLEY but the sata primer gun...

SATA guns are in their own league...


I never believed it until I spent the $$$ for my Satajet RP....its really worth the money...AND your paint jobs come out fabulous...

Remember make sure you have enough CFM's for your paint gun because thats the gun you will constantly be using and it should have at least 60 gallon tank. thats why I went with a satajet RP because it used less cfm's and I didnt want the gun to sputter whenit ran out of air when I painted. I might have been able to get away wit hit but I didint want to take a chance.

primer guns dont matter..you can afford to stop and wait. generally your not primering entire cars often so the regular primer gun is fine.

[55reasons]

Thanks for all the good info! It wasn't until I had more time to go through the specs on all the gun that I saw the K3 was a pressure-fed gun. I agree. I'm not in the mood to clean all the hoses and pot and crap everytime I'm done spraying a primer or a color.
Now I'm leaning towards the Sata RP which may require more frequent tip changing based on the product, but MUCH better than the alternative. I've painted a couple cars before, but it was always at a military base that had it's own booth and guns. (I was spoiled) They always had Sata guns, and I always had great results. The gun seamed to be very forgiving for me when I painted my first time, and the second and third jobs were a breeze. Very even, wet, and smooth coats were done with very little worry or trouble.

Thanks again for the info.

[jimwebby]

Kiefernet,

No offense taken. My skill level is definitely grounded in BEGINNER. Whilst I have done some spraying before, this is the first complete body that I have attempted. I am anticipating some errors and would want to choose a paint that will be accommodating to my skills.

I have a fairly basic HVLP gun with a 1.7mm tip and a compressor from Craftsman that has a 33 gallon tank and is rated to 8.4 SCFM at 40 PSI.

I am planning on a significant amount of wet colour sanding, because of my skill level, and therefore want a paint that will stand up to the sanding.

Thanks to everyone for the advice and feedback. I really do appreciate the comments.

Cheers,

Jim.

[nobrakes]

For primer that I am going to sand I use a Dockett spray gun, it uses paper cups that snap on the gun. It's a syphon type gun and you clean the tube and toss the paper cup, takes 2 minutes to clean.
_________________
If your not workin or cleanin your not looking hard enough.

[jimwebby]

Kiefernet,

Also, I forgot to mention that this car will definitely be babied and not subjected to the normal rigours of life.

I have waited a long time to be able to financially justify my passion to my ever-loving wife. Hence, it will be garaged always, will only come out in the sunshine and will be covered when not in use.

BTW. Like the yellow on the '68 vert - primo colour!

Jim.

[keifernet]

Thanks Jim... my concern for you know is that you don't have enough compressor


see the thread down the page on " compressor requirements "

I think the Omni would work for you, but if you have the bucks I'd use Delstar. Either one should be easy for a beginner to spray, and as long as it is a solid color not metallic then you can wet sand and buff the flaws, if you have them.

[inksling]

finally, something i can contribute on.

to me paint is paint. a one shot enamel is not a good idea for a first timmer, you got what you shot. if you get some sags or peel then count on repainting the whole panel. if you can get lacquer in your state i would suggest using it. it is high dollar, but it is easy to shoot and is more forgiving than other paints. some places will not sell to folks off the street so you might check into that. i suggest using nason or centurie if cost is an issue. i have used ppg but the place where i get my stuff mixed does not carry it so i do no mess wit driving the extra distance. if cost is NOT an issue then go all out and order some stuff from house of kolor. really any paint gun will work. devilbiss sells good guns, but they are high dollars. a suction feed gun uses a lot more air and paint than a hvlp gun will. harbor freight tools sells a decent little hvlp for about 50 bucks. if you are only painting this one car then there is know reason to spend 100's on a paint gun. i worked for a body shop for a couple years out of college and i used one of those jobs from harbor freight, and it worked great. the only thing is you have to watch the top of the gun b/c it can drip if you turn the gun too much.

you will need a primer. anything should work but you might want to steer clear of lacquer based primers if you will be painting it with a 2k enamel or base clear (i use primer that will fill up to 180 grit paper marks). you will need a sealer, nason 422-20 is what i suggest. then your paint and possibly a clear. if you use a one shot enamel i suggest using mar-hyde "wet look" catalyst. and maybe some fish eye reducer if you might be heavy handed with the gun.

i would go ahead and buy a gallon, it is usually cheaper than getting three quarts. and you will have extra left over if you need to repaint something. do not buy the paint and let it sit. use if as soon as possible after the place you buy it from shakes it.
_________________
Show me a man with a tattoo and I'll show you a man with an interesting past. ~Jack London

www.inksling.com

[Big Jim]

The choice of paint is really based on the intended usage. If you have put a lot of time and effort into your car already, perhaps you choice should be a first-line paint. On the flip side, I've talked to a couple of custom painters who use the Omni line exclusively and love it. They say Omni doesn't cover quite as well so you may need 3 coats rather than 2 but at less than 1/2 the price, that's not much of an issue unless you are painting semi's or busses.
As far as the paint technologh, BC/CC is an easy system to use and produces stellar results. On the other hand, you car was painted originally with a single stage paint and the end result between the two kinds does look slightly different. If you use a solid color single stage, you can color sand and buff the final job. The flakes in a single stage metallic lie very close to the surface so if you sand or buff agressively, you will damage them. If they get exposed, the paint is ruined.
I think you already know but, regardless of other claims, there is a big difference in spray guns. Apply a single stage with a $50 gun and you will have a well textured surface. Use a Sata and it can be dead smooth.
The safest opiton is to stay with 1 line of products throughout the job.
Delstar is a pretty tough paint and is the choice of a lot of fleets. I've used Omni on a couple of small projects and it's now my default choice but on a Resto, especially something as small as a VW, I might pick the Delstar.

[Obsessed]

the quality of the gun makes a HUGE difference. I have a satajet 2000 HVLP. it is an awesome gun. it takes 15.2 CFM of air. some HVLP guns take up to 20+ CFM, just make sure your compressor has the voulume to run it. I shoot primer with a devilbiss finishline gun. It works great on primer, but not so good on bc/cc. laquer never really cures. it can be on the car and if solvent gets on it, it goes back into soloution. go with a urethane paint, it's more durable. paint is like most things, you get what you pay for. buy cheap paint, and you get cheap paint. sherwin williams ultra line works well, so do house of kolor paints. just remember, it's just paint, if you make a mistake, you can always fix it.
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Volkswagens are life, everything else is just details.