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skills@eurocarsplus
Samba Peckerhead
Joined: January 01, 2007
Posts: 16901
Location: sticksville, ct.
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 Posted: Tue Apr 23, 2024 6:17 am Post subject: Re: Stiff, Harsh, Kidney Busting Suspension- Options |
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| PDXWesty wrote: |
| MarkWard wrote: |
| Again I am seeing aftermarket springs in coil bind. When the coil binds, you have lost that usable part of the spring. |
Again, a total misunderstanding of how dual rate springs work. |
agreed
I like the way my van rides with the H&R's and SPAX combo
Being able to dial everything in was well worth the money
_________________
| gprudenciop wrote: |
my reason for switching to subaru is my german car was turning chinese so i said fuck it and went japanese....... |
| Jake Raby wrote: |
| Thanks for the correction. I used to be a nice guy, then I ruined it by exposing myself to the public. |
| Brian wrote: |
| Also the fact that people are agreeing with Skills, it's a turn of events for samba history |
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Christopher Schimke
Samba Member
Joined: August 03, 2005
Posts: 5394
Location: PNW
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| Posted: Tue Apr 23, 2024 7:03 am Post subject: Re: Stiff, Harsh, Kidney Busting Suspension- Options |
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| PDXWesty wrote: |
| MarkWard wrote: |
| Again I am seeing aftermarket springs in coil bind. When the coil binds, you have lost that usable part of the spring. |
Again, a total misunderstanding of how dual rate springs work. |
Rick, I'd be very interested in hearing more about this comment. If I'm doing a decent job of reading between the lines, I'm guessing that you are referring to the fact that, in all of the discussion of "dual rate" springs mentioned in this thread and others, only the compression of the spring is being taken into consideration, but the extension of the spring is kind of being ignored. Is that what you are referring to?
_________________
"Sometimes you have to build a box to think outside of." - Bruce (not Springsteen)
*Custom wheel hardware for Audi/VW, Porsche and Mercedes wheels - Urethane Suspension Bushings*
T3Technique.com or contact me at [email protected] |
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PDXWesty
Samba Member
Joined: April 11, 2006
Posts: 6249
Location: Portland OR
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| Posted: Tue Apr 23, 2024 9:05 am Post subject: Re: Stiff, Harsh, Kidney Busting Suspension- Options |
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| Christopher Schimke wrote: |
Rick, I'd be very interested in hearing more about this comment. If I'm doing a decent job of reading between the lines, I'm guessing that you are referring to the fact that, in all of the discussion of "dual rate" springs mentioned in this thread and others, only the compression of the spring is being taken into consideration, but the extension of the spring is kind of being ignored. Is that what you are referring to? |
Exactly it. (this is my understanding) The closer wound coils are made to compress for normal loaded conditions. They flex when the coil is extended. This is the way they are designed. It's a common comment in many threads that when people see the coils compressed, they aren't doing their job anymore. This design actually adds a lot to the spring stability.
Here's a great paper that explains the different automotive springs and how they work: https://metalcloak.blogspot.com/2013/12/understanding-suspension-spring.html
An image from that page really explains it well.
Here's another image from that page:
| E1 wrote: |
Unless I missed something, I took what Mark said to mean that whatever areas of the spring that are compressed to the point of touching effectively means those areas are no longer a spring at all which is true.
I saw no reference to dual-rate. |
The photo posted clearly shows dual rate springs installed on the OP's van. The upper coils are made to compress exactly as the photo shows. Even though they are compressed, they are still doing work.
_________________
89 Westy 2.1 Auto |
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turbotype1
Samba Member
Joined: April 30, 2005
Posts: 583
Location: seacoast
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| Posted: Wed Apr 24, 2024 7:06 am Post subject: Re: Stiff, Harsh, Kidney Busting Suspension- Options |
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| skills@eurocarsplus wrote: |
| PDXWesty wrote: |
| MarkWard wrote: |
| Again I am seeing aftermarket springs in coil bind. When the coil binds, you have lost that usable part of the spring. |
Again, a total misunderstanding of how dual rate springs work. |
agreed
I like the way my van rides with the H&R's and SPAX combo
Being able to dial everything in was well worth the money |
I'm running this combo as well on my single cab.... It's the shocks that make a night and day difference, worth every penny. Also, I'm not sure if the front bump-stops on the trucks are the same, but I had to shorten mine... I was definitely hitting them...
_________________
| 117harv wrote: |
This new fad of get it the lowest, or run it with the worst looks, (patina) isn't cool, it's for the hey everyone look at me crowd, i'm driving a beat down ratty, unsafe, VW, how cool am I ???...your not....
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Pissing off the purists since 1997
Wanted: Boyd Motors plate frame
57 Turbo Oval Sliding rag
67 13 window delux walk-thru- now 21
64 all original for the misses
83 Sinka m-TDI diesel |
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Barking Squirrel
Samba Member
Joined: April 28, 2023
Posts: 63
Location: Halifax, Nova Scotia Canada
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| Posted: Thu Apr 25, 2024 3:44 am Post subject: Re: Stiff, Harsh, Kidney Busting Suspension- Options |
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Thanks folks.
Kamz, the fluid on and around the shocks is rust proof undercoating and/or pb blaster to get the bolts off. Nova Scotia = beautiful culture and places, but endless salt air, salt water and salt roads.
I have used stock OEM springs coming next week. Will try them out.
Most of life is about trying, learning and unlearning...
Will let you know the results.
_________________
1980 Vanagon L 235k, Dual Carbs, "Mattie". Air Cooled. |
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skills@eurocarsplus
Samba Peckerhead
Joined: January 01, 2007
Posts: 16901
Location: sticksville, ct.
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| Posted: Thu Apr 25, 2024 8:07 am Post subject: Re: Stiff, Harsh, Kidney Busting Suspension- Options |
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| Barking Squirrel wrote: |
Will let you know the results. |
the results will be you'll have a stiff riding stock height vanagon 
seriously, ditch those shocks
_________________
| gprudenciop wrote: |
my reason for switching to subaru is my german car was turning chinese so i said fuck it and went japanese....... |
| Jake Raby wrote: |
| Thanks for the correction. I used to be a nice guy, then I ruined it by exposing myself to the public. |
| Brian wrote: |
| Also the fact that people are agreeing with Skills, it's a turn of events for samba history |
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Christopher Schimke
Samba Member
Joined: August 03, 2005
Posts: 5394
Location: PNW
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| Posted: Thu Apr 25, 2024 8:13 am Post subject: Re: Stiff, Harsh, Kidney Busting Suspension- Options |
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| skills@eurocarsplus wrote: |
| Barking Squirrel wrote: |
Will let you know the results. |
seriously, ditch those shocks |
I couldn't agree more. I will never understand why people are so enamored over Bilstein shocks on a Vanagon. Not that some of the other popular shocks are much better, but Bilstein shocks rank way up there on my least favorite Vanagon shock list.
_________________
"Sometimes you have to build a box to think outside of." - Bruce (not Springsteen)
*Custom wheel hardware for Audi/VW, Porsche and Mercedes wheels - Urethane Suspension Bushings*
T3Technique.com or contact me at [email protected] |
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E1
Samba Member
Joined: January 21, 2013
Posts: 6661
Location: Westfalia, Earth
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| Posted: Thu Apr 25, 2024 8:19 am Post subject: Re: Stiff, Harsh, Kidney Busting Suspension- Options |
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That gives me hope, Chris, I will say ours hit pretty harshly on the rough!
_________________
84 Westy, 2.1L with Digijet, 5.43 R+P, GT Gears
"Adding power makes you faster on the straights.
Subtracting weight makes you faster everywhere."
Colin Chapman |
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Christopher Schimke
Samba Member
Joined: August 03, 2005
Posts: 5394
Location: PNW
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| Posted: Fri Apr 26, 2024 9:35 am Post subject: Re: Stiff, Harsh, Kidney Busting Suspension- Options |
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| PDXWesty wrote: |
| Christopher Schimke wrote: |
Rick, I'd be very interested in hearing more about this comment. If I'm doing a decent job of reading between the lines, I'm guessing that you are referring to the fact that, in all of the discussion of "dual rate" springs mentioned in this thread and others, only the compression of the spring is being taken into consideration, but the extension of the spring is kind of being ignored. Is that what you are referring to? |
Exactly it. (this is my understanding) The closer wound coils are made to compress for normal loaded conditions. They flex when the coil is extended. This is the way they are designed. It's a common comment in many threads that when people see the coils compressed, they aren't doing their job anymore. This design actually adds a lot to the spring stability. |
Cool! Yeah, that's what I thought you were referring to. Here's my take on it.
Dual-rate springs do work very well when they are designed correctly and are used in situations where lots of spring travel is employed, like on a Jeep. In my opinion, they don't work all that well for applications where the spring travel is fairly short.
When dual-rate springs are designed incorrectly, or used for the wrong application, the following can happen -
The tightly spaced coils are not fully compressed at ride height:
When the tightly spaced coils are not fully compressed at ride height, the spring rate is going to be quite a bit less at ride height compared to when the spring compresses to the point that all of the tightly spaced coils bind and the wider spaced coils take over.
For example, if the tightly wound coils have a rate of 350# and the wider spaced coils have a rate of 550#, there is the potential for the spring rate to go from 350# to 550# in less than an inch of wheel travel. This wreaks havoc on the ride quality, especially for small amounts of wheel travel. This is because, as the spring compresses into the higher rate, the higher rate wants to push the spring back into the softer rate range. This creates a very bouncy ride quality and it is incredibly difficult for standard shocks to handle this in terms of providing the correct damping qualities for both rates, again, contributing to poor ride quality.
There are too many tightly spaced coils which reduces spring travel to the point of being fully coil-bound, reducing wheel travel:
When there are too many tightly spaced coils, the travel range of the spring, to the point of complete coil bind, is reduced. When the spring reaches full coil bind, you no longer have any suspension travel. Obviously, this equates to a very rough ride quality.
This is the problem with the blue H&R rear springs. The blue H&R rear springs are actually progressive in nature, not dual-rate. However, because the rates for the first four inches of spring travel are so low, if the van is heavy enough, all the tightly wound coils are bound by the time the vehicle is at ride height.
I have charted the rate changes of the blue H&R springs, and this is what the rear spring looks like -
170# @ 2, 183# @ 3, 198# @ 4 540# @ 5, 1000# @ 6
No wonder it's a rough ride for any van that weighs enough to push the spring into the 5" + range of spring travel at ride height.
So yeah, dual-rate and/or progressive rate springs have their place, but they have to be designed correctly and applied to the correct application for them to work as intended. Otherwise, they have no place.
_________________
"Sometimes you have to build a box to think outside of." - Bruce (not Springsteen)
*Custom wheel hardware for Audi/VW, Porsche and Mercedes wheels - Urethane Suspension Bushings*
T3Technique.com or contact me at [email protected] |
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