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[email protected] Samba Member
Joined: March 26, 2024 Posts: 4 Location: California
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Posted: Wed Mar 27, 2024 7:11 am Post subject: Off road camshaft?? |
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Hey guys,
building my first vw engine. have a fully machined ready to go as41 case stroker relieved and opened to 94. i plan on using big valve stage 2 p&p heads from carkraft with dual 44s and match ported manifolds. i plan on using a forged counterweighted 82mm crank and steel on steel straight cut cam gears.looking for advice on my cam. it is going into a two seater sandrail. i was told a vz grind would work well with this particular application. suggestions? |
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Dusty1 Samba Member
Joined: April 16, 2004 Posts: 1435
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Posted: Wed Mar 27, 2024 7:32 am Post subject: Re: Off road camshaft?? |
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VZs are hard on the valvetrain. They're a good cam choice for race engines that come apart after each event. Feel like bein' elbows deep in your motor or or do you want to put it together once and ride some dunes?
I'd go the other way and use an Engle FK41. It's meant to be used with 1.5 rockers but more to the point it balances performance and reliability.
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Brian_e Samba Member
Joined: July 28, 2009 Posts: 3296 Location: Rapid City, SD
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Posted: Wed Mar 27, 2024 8:13 am Post subject: Re: Off road camshaft?? |
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You pick the cam based on the intended RPM range you are hoping to make power in.
Do you want low RPM power up to around 5500rpm? Or maybe more midrange like 3000-6500rpm?? Or do you think yo need a 4500-7500 rpm screamer?
Be honest with yourself. Going to big is usually worse than going to small.
Brian _________________ www.type-emotorsports.com |
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vwracerdave Samba Member
Joined: November 11, 2004 Posts: 15316 Location: Deep in the 405
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Posted: Wed Mar 27, 2024 9:29 am Post subject: Re: Off road camshaft?? |
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Gearing and tire size are also important in selecting a cam for an off-road buggy.
My gut is smelling an Engle FK-43 with 1.4 rockers. _________________ 2017 Street Comp Champion - Thunder Valley Raceway Park - Noble, OK
2010 Sportsman ET Champion - Mid-America Dragway - Arkansas City, KS
1997 Sportsman ET Champion - Thunder Valley Raceway Park - Noble ,OK |
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QRP Samba Member
Joined: April 27, 2008 Posts: 1713 Location: NORTH HOLLYWOOD,CA
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Posted: Wed Mar 27, 2024 9:30 am Post subject: Re: Off road camshaft?? |
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This may sound totally boring but . . . .
Put a W110 in it and be a happy camper, there's a reason it's the most popular cam out there.
IMHO |
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MuzzcoVW Samba Member
Joined: February 21, 2018 Posts: 1477 Location: Westfield, MA.
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Posted: Wed Mar 27, 2024 9:42 am Post subject: Re: Off road camshaft?? |
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QRP wrote: |
This may sound totally boring but . . . .
Put a W110 in it and be a happy camper, there's a reason it's the most popular cam out there.
IMHO |
Marketing... and follow the sheep? lol Joking, but there are so many interesting choices available. I just built a baja 1679 with a W90. The owner wanted torque and no high revs. Works better than expected |
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[email protected] Samba Member
Joined: March 26, 2024 Posts: 4 Location: California
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Posted: Wed Mar 27, 2024 9:57 am Post subject: Re: Off road camshaft?? |
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Thank you guys all advice is welcome. i was told about the vz grind by a very well renowned machinist/racer/vw mechanic. but ill be interested in looking into the fk grinds. honestly looking for a mid range power band 3000 to 5500 |
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Brian_e Samba Member
Joined: July 28, 2009 Posts: 3296 Location: Rapid City, SD
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Posted: Wed Mar 27, 2024 10:15 am Post subject: Re: Off road camshaft?? |
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QRP wrote: |
This may sound totally boring but . . . .
Put a W110 in it and be a happy camper, there's a reason it's the most popular cam out there.
IMHO |
Boring is right..... the w110 works OK at most things, but doesn't work great at anything. It's just boring. Especially in small engines.
For the original poster....
We still don't know what displacement you are planning to build. If its going to be a 2180cc-2276cc, and you want a bunch of torque in the 3000-5500rpm range, you don't need a big cam, or huge heads.
I do 2180's with a web 218, and corrected CB panchito heads, and they make big midrange power right up to 5500rpm and then they quit.
Since its going to be a play car, I would build this...
2276cc,
web 163 cam, or fk42
1.3 rockers
Tims S1, 40x35 or S1+ heads
1 5/8" header
44IDF's
9.3:1
light flywheel
cb magnaspark kit
Brian _________________ www.type-emotorsports.com
Last edited by Brian_e on Wed Mar 27, 2024 10:18 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Vanapplebomb Samba Member
Joined: November 03, 2010 Posts: 5421 Location: Holland, MI
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Posted: Wed Mar 27, 2024 10:18 am Post subject: Re: Off road camshaft?? |
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What kind of “off road” driving? That makes a HUGE difference. For sand dunes, a higher duration/lift (mid-high rpm power) is nice because you can down shift and put your foot in it to power your way to the top. For trail driving, I find big cams a pain in the butt. Keep those mild for good low-mid rpm power. Makes driving a dream, and you don’t have to drive with your foot in it. Much more pleasurable.
For trail riding, the worst things you can do for a driving experience is go too big on the cam, too high of flow on the heads (given the power), and using oversized carbs. Those three things kill your midrange grunt.
Unless you want to drive the exact same way your “expert” drives, I would t put much stock into his suggestion. It is only valid for the type of power and and engine setup he has. _________________ 1800 Type 4 Berrien 295
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=487021 |
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[email protected] Samba Member
Joined: March 26, 2024 Posts: 4 Location: California
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Posted: Wed Mar 27, 2024 11:14 am Post subject: Re: Off road camshaft?? |
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sorry guys it'll be a 2276... and i agree with the fact that his suggestion might not be great for my particular application,ipso facto I'm here for more advice itll be really for all around off roading. i live in socal so i have it all |
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Dan Ruddock Samba Member
Joined: October 25, 2012 Posts: 3594 Location: Sarasota, in my adopted state of Florida
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Posted: Wed Mar 27, 2024 12:13 pm Post subject: Re: Off road camshaft?? |
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X2 on the 163 with 1.3 rockers.
Dan |
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BFB Samba Member
Joined: November 03, 2014 Posts: 1762
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Posted: Wed Mar 27, 2024 7:35 pm Post subject: Re: Off road camshaft?? |
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I’d posted something about a VZ a while back and most people were dogging the cam for it being high lift and harsh on the valve train but i know there was at least one ‘ol boy that said he’d been running one for years.
It’s funny, the 110 and vz15 are actually pretty close in specs with duration at 247 & 250 respectively and opening & closing events within no more than 5* of each other. Biggest difference is the amount of lift with the vz15 being 435 at the cam, .043 more than the 110. Which really isn’t that much lift, ive been running a 2241 for over 7 years and lift at cam on it is 424. Lift on the web 163 is 422 but i dont have specs on opening & closing events on it. I’m putting a 2246 into a 1968cc right now and lift on it at cam is 452.
I dunno, just seems most cams recommended on here are low lift,( 390 range )but will often be suggested to run ratios with them. I get its easier on the rest of the valve train but its also boring and its obvious that higher lift cams can be run and wont trash an engine in 5000 miles.
Right now im also building an 1801cc ( 85.5 x 78.4 ) and put a vz15 in it. It’ll be going in a rail that’ll be used for trail riding / overlanding & camping. With the shorter duration and early intake closing it should be able to pull good at lower rpm. I’d say give the vz15 a try OP, if it fits, all depends where you want that rpm…
Although i also like doing something different, right or wrong _________________ Forced induction can overcome a lot of obsticles that gets in it's way
"You are the Engineer and the Mechanic.
Build it your way not the way someone else does it. Their way might not work for you." - clonebug
An interesting thing happens in forums where everyone starts parroting the same thing and "common knowledge" takes over.
“ The monkey see monkey do mentality seems to run deep in VW people. "Gene Berg said it was so 30 years ago so thats the way it is" “ - bdkw1 |
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richparker Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2011 Posts: 6989 Location: Durango, CO
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bugguy1967 Samba Member
Joined: January 16, 2008 Posts: 4345 Location: Los Angeles, CA 90016
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Posted: Wed Mar 27, 2024 9:44 pm Post subject: Re: Off road camshaft?? |
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You should probably sleeve your lifter bores with any VZ cams. _________________ "A petrol engine can start readily, run smoothly and give every appearance of being in good order, without necessarily being in good tune." - Colin Campbell, "The Sportscar Engine" |
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petrol punk Samba Member
Joined: August 21, 2007 Posts: 978 Location: Las Vegas, NV
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Posted: Thu Mar 28, 2024 6:15 am Post subject: Re: Off road camshaft?? |
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I've got an old B series 1600SP dual relief case that has badly wobbled out lifter bores. If I get it sleeved it would be safe to run a VZ cam even in a daily driver? I'm not sure if it would still wear out the sleeves or maybe still wobble out the sleeve bores on the softer mag case. _________________ 36hp '56 European DeLuxe oval, '70 bug 1835cc dual 36DRLA, and a '98 4x4 5spd single cab Tacoma |
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Dan Ruddock Samba Member
Joined: October 25, 2012 Posts: 3594 Location: Sarasota, in my adopted state of Florida
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Posted: Thu Mar 28, 2024 6:22 am Post subject: Re: Off road camshaft?? |
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The VZ cams are hard on all of your valve train, they do make good power with stock rockers. The right cam with 1.3 or 1.4 ratio rockers will make even more power and be easier on your valve train. The choice is simple. |
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Alstrup Samba Member
Joined: July 12, 2007 Posts: 7230 Location: Videbaek Denmark
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Posted: Thu Mar 28, 2024 6:50 am Post subject: Re: Off road camshaft?? |
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VZ cams are somewhat agressive, yes.
They can support very good power for their respective rpm bands, yes.
They are NOT necessarily as hard on the valve train as many claim. The main reason is - once again - that everybody assume that you run super heavy Engle lifter, cromemoly pr´s and the toughest dual springs you can fined, because "the cam is so agressive that you need that much spring pressure" Well, you may, and you may not need that. Personally those cams are not my first choice, but a decent durability set up can be done with a little careful selection of parts.
The use of a lighter lifter, aluminum pr´s and finding the valve tension NECESSARY for the cam- and rpm range you want the engine to work in, can change that radically. For instance, A VZ 15 will live happilly together with a set of Dan´s Beehive springs. and a good set of say Smith Bro´s pr´s. Or a set of CB 650 outer springs along with Ti retainers.
Another thing regarding the use of high lift cams is the need to prepare the case for it. When you use cams like that it is paramount to notch the oil supply holes in the lifter bores so the lifters get the oil they actually need, both to lube themselves, but even more to supply enough oil to the rocker arms. When I use high lift cams like that I do this, and have done for at least 15 years. I have never experienced lifter bore- or oil supply issues with Web 218´s, CB 2240, and a handfull of VZ 14/15 cams.
If you go into the higher rpm cams like say VZ 25/FK 43 & up you probably should sleeve the lifter bores. _________________ https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=435993 |
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richparker Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2011 Posts: 6989 Location: Durango, CO
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vwracerdave Samba Member
Joined: November 11, 2004 Posts: 15316 Location: Deep in the 405
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Posted: Thu Mar 28, 2024 10:15 am Post subject: Re: Off road camshaft?? |
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Sad to see all the folks that are bored to death with all the 40-50 year old cams. Lots of old wives tales and myths that follow them. New guys that insist there is something more modern and newer that has to be better. All of us are still playing around with these 50, 60, & 70 year old VW's
The VZ series cams were designed for off-road racing back in the 70's where class rules limited you to a single carb and stock ratio rockers. If you're building an engine with dual carbs and 1.4 ratio rockers the FK series cams (also ground in the 70's) are a much better choice for power and longevity.
I have an 1835cc built 30 years ago with a VZ-25 cam, cast crank, and cast pistons. I've put 600 1/4 mile passes and 30K street miles on it and still running great sitting under the bench as a back-up spare.
Weather you choose Engle cams or Web cams is just a personal preference just like arguing between a Ford or a Chevy. _________________ 2017 Street Comp Champion - Thunder Valley Raceway Park - Noble, OK
2010 Sportsman ET Champion - Mid-America Dragway - Arkansas City, KS
1997 Sportsman ET Champion - Thunder Valley Raceway Park - Noble ,OK |
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Alstrup Samba Member
Joined: July 12, 2007 Posts: 7230 Location: Videbaek Denmark
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Posted: Thu Mar 28, 2024 11:46 am Post subject: Re: Off road camshaft?? |
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vwracerdave wrote: |
Weather you choose Engle cams or Web cams is just a personal preference just like arguing between a Ford or a Chevy. |
Errhhmm, absolutely not! Both companies have their advantages, but typically not in the same field. Web cams for stock/1,25 rockers generally beat just about any W cam, on several accounts. Period! Web doesnt really have a line comparable to the VZ series except maybe the 111. With ratio rocker- and all out drag cams it is different. There Engle sits hard on the throne, especially the dragrace stuff.
There - is - more modern cams on the market today. But they are almost all Europeian based. Nowak and JPM Raptor comes to mind.
I agree on the part where people tend to keep using 40-50-60 year old grinds and other stuff. But here the question was regarding the VZ cams, so that is what we answered about. _________________ https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=435993 |
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