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Dan_Lockwood
Samba Member
Joined: October 03, 2023
Posts: 189
Location: Clare MI
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 Posted: Sat Jan 20, 2024 10:58 am Post subject: Axles, 10-degree Mount, Questions |
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Hello again! Let me apologize for my rambling... again! My mind is running 100 mph and I get some things before they should be. 
I have my 5-rib tentatively in place with the 10-degree mounting kit.
Since I do NOT have a tunnel and will be making a new shifter box up front, having the nose cone shifter shaft down low is not a requirement. I decided to remove about 5-degrees of the mounting on the bellhousing. I used my SWAG Off Road new finger break in my 20-ton press. It works SO nice to bend mounts etc. This finger break will bend 1/2" bar stock 4" wide! This did several things in the positive for me, at least I think it does.
1 - It will lower the rear of the motor just a bit relative to the full 10-degrees.
2 - I keeps the transaxle up a bit further forward in the frame tubes and not require the massive amount of cutting, grinding and rewelding of the tubes. I have about 1/4" clearance on both sides and it seems to be about equal in that respect. I'll just notch out about an inch or so in length and not have a huge job doing it.
3 - It seems that I have plenty of clearance for the 100mm bus CV-joints over the top of the tubes. HIDDEN QUESTION??? I've seen several YouTube videos there they have to cut the tops of the frame tube and box them in for the CV clearance. My tubes seem to have a "factory" shallowing in that area and I see not need for any modifications in that area. Are there two different types of rear frame tubes, fatter and then the narrower like mine?
Now down to the axle lengths.
It's very hard to get accurate tape measure measurements inside the two flanges, so I took a piece of TIG wire and cut/folded to fit exactly into the longer one. It appears that I have a slight difference of 1/4" from side to side, driver's side being the longest by 1/4". Oh, also I have the trailing arms spaced at as close to centerline as I can get, probably +/- 1/2" vertically speaking.
Did I measure in the correct place on the flanges? I've read that DO NOT measure to the CV mounting surfaces. Now that I have 20-1/2" and 20-1/4" measurements, do I now subtract 1/2" from both and that's the length of my axles? I have new transaxle flange seals and plugs, but put the old plugs back in for the purpose of the axle measurements for now.
You can see from the front transaxle picture of the shifter shaft, that I inherited a pretty shotty piece of work for a sand rail frame. Terrible welds to say the least.
Question about the rear frame tubes. As they are top and bottom of the torsion tube housing and cut just about straight up/down at the front edge of the torsion housing, I want to cut them back and do a proper capping and welding up of them. To get my rear seats a bit more rearward mounting, can I cut the top of the tubes towards the back on around a 45-degree angle so the top of the torsion tube is clean all across the top? I'm thinking that as long as the tunnel has been clipped forward of the torsion housing, I won't need as much contact to support the rear and the 45-degree clipping will work for me and my seats. Any reservations about trimming the top AND bottom back on 45-degrees???
For a front mount, I'll use the urethane tube "T" that comes with these kits and make a new nose cone plate and weld the T forward just over the center top of the torsion tube. I'll draw up and cut out two side plates out of 3/16" flat plate and weld them on as a cradle to straddle the T mount. At that point all of my transaxle mounting points will be above the frame and have easier access to them for tightening etc.
One last item for this, at least at this time..., mounting the 10-degree bellhousing plate was an unexpected chore. There was no way that it would "hammer" into place as some have said in their videos. I had to remove the bellhousing and feed it up that way. There are two casting webs, one each side, that the lower edge of the two plates hit. Hitting these two casting ribs, caused the four holes on the bottom to be out of position vertically. After getting out my angle die grinder and trimming the casting ribs, all of the lower holes centered up nicely. Why doesn't anyone say how hard it is to get these rear mounts up into place WITH the bellhousing on? I have a new short, early, input shaft that I need to install anyway, so kill two birds kind of thing for me.
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jsturtlebuggy
Samba Member
Joined: August 24, 2005
Posts: 4496
Location: Fair Oaks/Orangevale, CA
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| Posted: Sat Jan 20, 2024 9:39 pm Post subject: Re: Axles, 10-degree Mount, Questions |
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You want to measure from flat area of each flange, not in the center hole.
A Bus 002 and 091 transaxles are a hypoid design. The mainshaft is not centered. There an offset is why you coming up with two different axle lengths.
The solid mount kit frame horn bolt holes are slotted to be able to center transaxle flanges.
You can modify the 10 degree kit to do this.
As your are finding with aftermarket parts, very little to no instructions included.
I lost count how many times I asked the person selling their products for help, and being told “it is self explanatory when you install it”
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Joseph
Fair Oaks/Orangevale, CA
Elrod Motorsports
Motion Tire Motorsports
Having fun with Dune Buggies since 1970
Into Volkswagens since 1960 |
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Dan_Lockwood
Samba Member
Joined: October 03, 2023
Posts: 189
Location: Clare MI
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| Posted: Sat Jan 20, 2024 10:29 pm Post subject: Re: Axles, 10-degree Mount, Questions |
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| jsturtlebuggy wrote: |
You want to measure from flat area of each flange, not in the center hole.
A Bus 002 and 091 transaxles are a hypoid design. The mainshaft is not centered. There an offset is why you coming up with two different axle lengths.
The solid mount kit frame horn bolt holes are slotted to be able to center transaxle flanges.
You can modify the 10 degree kit to do this.
As your are finding with aftermarket parts, very little to no instructions included.
I lost count how many times I asked the person selling their products for help, and being told “it is self explanatory when you install it” |
My 10-degree motor mount kit does not have slotted mounting holes in the rear for the frame horns. They fit nicely around the long mounting bolts in the frame horns. Also with the way it's mounted now, I have the same clearance on each side of the transaxle to the inside of the frame horns.
With just 1/4" difference between the sides, I'm thinking that I'm probably not going to try to get the axle spacing exactly the same from side to side.
But I thought I read that you measure from the pocket inside the flanges, NOT the mounting surface. I didn't want to just say, if it's on the Internet, it has to be correct...  I bought my 10-degree kit from this company. I just want to get the correct axles, just need a "good" point of reference.
How to Measure IRS Axle Length:
1.) First adjust your rear wheel alignment toe in. If your tires are toed out like a duck your trailing arms will be closer to your transmission resulting in a shorter axle.
2.) Lift the trailing arm so that if you did have an axle it would be parallel to the floor at zero degrees. This is your shortest point.
3.) Measure from the center of the drive flange on your transmission to the center of the stub axle on your trailing arm. DO NOT measure where your CV joint mounting surface is. You need to measure the bottom of each cup because this is where your axle will plunge into. If you purchase too long of an axle, when your trailing arm moves upward to zero degrees it will shove the axle into the transmission. This will mushroom the ends of your axles and eventually crush the ring gear inside your transmission.
4.) After you have measured this distance, you subtract 1/4 inch total length. For instance if you measure from the center of the drive flange to the center of the stub axle and you get 20 1/2 inches you would buy a 20 1/4 axle.
5.) Measure both sides of the car. It is VERY common to have unequal length axles.
Thanks, Dan |
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jsturtlebuggy
Samba Member
Joined: August 24, 2005
Posts: 4496
Location: Fair Oaks/Orangevale, CA
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| Posted: Sat Jan 20, 2024 10:38 pm Post subject: Re: Axles, 10-degree Mount, Questions |
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Yes the flat part in center of flange. Whether it be the inner flange cap or outer flange flat part is where you want to measure. You don’t want to measure in the center hole in out flange or center of side gear under flange seal. I saw your picture with the wire in center hole.
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Joseph
Fair Oaks/Orangevale, CA
Elrod Motorsports
Motion Tire Motorsports
Having fun with Dune Buggies since 1970
Into Volkswagens since 1960 |
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jsturtlebuggy
Samba Member
Joined: August 24, 2005
Posts: 4496
Location: Fair Oaks/Orangevale, CA
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| Posted: Sat Jan 20, 2024 10:46 pm Post subject: Re: Axles, 10-degree Mount, Questions |
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And yes you can cut the axles shorter and cut new groove for sprial lock or snap ring. I done it a more then few times.
You can also counter bore the center star of CV if need to. KarTek in Corona, Ca offers this service. This done for more axle travel.
Axle length should be about 1/4 to 3/8”shorter than measurement you get between flanges.
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Joseph
Fair Oaks/Orangevale, CA
Elrod Motorsports
Motion Tire Motorsports
Having fun with Dune Buggies since 1970
Into Volkswagens since 1960 |
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Dan_Lockwood
Samba Member
Joined: October 03, 2023
Posts: 189
Location: Clare MI
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| Posted: Sun Jan 21, 2024 9:58 am Post subject: Re: Axles, 10-degree Mount, Questions |
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| jsturtlebuggy wrote: |
| Yes the flat part in center of flange. Whether it be the inner flange cap or outer flange flat part is where you want to measure. You don’t want to measure in the center hole in out flange or center of side gear under flange seal. I saw your picture with the wire in center hole. |
Sorry, I didn't explain myself correctly in the first posting. I knew what I meant, but obviously I didn't relay that info...
In this picture I show 1/4" of the end of the welding wire into the hole. This is ONLY to show that the right side is 1/4" shorter than the left side.
The other two pictures of the left side show the welding wire in the FLAT base, not the hole. The wire is 20.5" long, tip to tip. That fits perfectly on the left side, but goes .25" into the center hole on the right stub shaft. Again, showing that the right side is 1/4" closer together.
I'll do some looking now and see what's available out there for assemblies. So much for the rule of thumb that a 3x3 and 002 will use a 19.25" long assembly. |
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Dan_Lockwood
Samba Member
Joined: October 03, 2023
Posts: 189
Location: Clare MI
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| Posted: Sun Jan 21, 2024 12:22 pm Post subject: Re: Axles, 10-degree Mount, Questions |
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| jsturtlebuggy wrote: |
And yes you can cut the axles shorter and cut new groove for sprial lock or snap ring. I done it a more then few times.
You can also counter bore the center star of CV if need to. KarTek in Corona, Ca offers this service. This done for more axle travel.
Axle length should be about 1/4 to 3/8”shorter than measurement you get between flanges. |
I found a set of axle assemblies at Appletree for the wagons.
They have a left side that's 20.25" and at centerline/level on the left, I measure at 20.5". They have a right side that's 19.875" and I measured my right side at 20.25". That's 3/8" of an inch shorter than I measured at centerline, but I'm guessing that extra 1/8" won't really matter much.
I also just set my left side trailing arm up and cut off my top stock bumper stop to allow more travel of the arm. I now have it hitting the original spring plate bottom stop and the spring plate upper stop. During the full 8.75" wheel travel, the left side distance only changed by 3/8", droop being the full 3/8" and the full up was only 1/4" added length. I measured a full swing, bottom to top, at 8.75". I plan on notching the lower side of the spring plate to allow around another 1/2" of drop. I will then use a limiting strap to stop the down motion at the original stop distance; just won't hit metal to metal. I'll come up with a bump stop on the top side so my shocks will not be hitting at either end of the stroke. |
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BFB
Samba Member
Joined: November 03, 2014
Posts: 1762
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| Posted: Mon Jan 22, 2024 6:35 pm Post subject: Re: Axles, 10-degree Mount, Questions |
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Just for arguments sake, its not a bad idea to measure distance between center of stubs with the suspension compressed enough to give you your shortest distance between them so as not to have an axle thats to long and beat it into your stubs.
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Build it your way not the way someone else does it. Their way might not work for you." - clonebug
An interesting thing happens in forums where everyone starts parroting the same thing and "common knowledge" takes over.
“ The monkey see monkey do mentality seems to run deep in VW people. "Gene Berg said it was so 30 years ago so thats the way it is" “ - bdkw1 |
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Dan_Lockwood
Samba Member
Joined: October 03, 2023
Posts: 189
Location: Clare MI
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| Posted: Mon Jan 22, 2024 8:10 pm Post subject: Re: Axles, 10-degree Mount, Questions |
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| BFB wrote: |
| Just for arguments sake, its not a bad idea to measure distance between center of stubs with the suspension compressed enough to give you your shortest distance between them so as not to have an axle thats to long and beat it into your stubs. |
I "thought" I had my toe set on the rear, but a buddy came over and we did a full front to rear, as good as we could, alignment.
Right now when I have both rear rotors square, no toe in, AND pointing to the square centerline of the frame/front beam assembly, I have almost identical distances between the two sides.
At this setup, I now have 20-3/16" from center of hub flat to center of hub flat. I also still get just about 3/8" longer measurement at full up travel and only about 1/4" longer measurement at full down on the trailing arms. Both sides close enough to not see any slight difference.
Since I have the 19-7/8" available, I'm thinking that's what I'm going to go with. That's just over 3/8" shorter for the axle length than my hub to hub at the closest point at centerline vertically with the hubs.
Is this going to be too short for me?
Thanks in advance, Dan |
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dustymojave
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Joined: January 07, 2007
Posts: 5802
Location: Lake LA, Mojave Desert, SoCal
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| Posted: Thu Jan 25, 2024 12:18 am Post subject: Re: Axles, 10-degree Mount, Questions |
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| Dan_Lockwood wrote: |
I "thought" I had my toe set on the rear, but a buddy came over and we did a full front to rear, as good as we could, alignment.
Right now when I have both rear rotors square, no toe in, AND pointing to the square centerline of the frame/front beam assembly, I have almost identical distances between the two sides.
At this setup, I now have 20-3/16" from center of hub flat to center of hub flat. I also still get just about 3/8" longer measurement at full up travel and only about 1/4" longer measurement at full down on the trailing arms. Both sides close enough to not see any slight difference.
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NOW you're talking Dan!
THAT'S how it should be done.
So many assume that as they slapped things together that's where things should be. But it often is not so. And measuring axles before alignment is foolish. Good job!
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Richard
Offroading VW based cars since 1965
Tech Inspection 1963 - 2012 SCCA/SCORE/HDRA/MORE/MDR +
Retired from building Bajas, Fiberglass Buggies and Rails in the Mojave Desert. Also Sprints & Midgets, Dry Lakes, Road Race cars. All types New and Vintage
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jimmyhoffa
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Joined: February 16, 2014
Posts: 1059
Location: St. Louis
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| Posted: Thu Jan 25, 2024 7:56 am Post subject: Re: Axles, 10-degree Mount, Questions |
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Dan, I have about 3/8" worth of plunge slop in this position which I think is what you described, and I've had the car apart several times after running it pretty hard all over this great country. Nothing weird yet! I think you should be good with that decision making process. Also good call on checking alignment. Rear toe has a massive impact on how squirreley the car is or isn't.
Every once in a while, when I go from forward to reverse or turn and then bump the clutch, I hear the axles "clink" the flanges. I'm thinking about drilling down just a bit down the end of the axle, and inserting a rubber plug or bumper or something. It probably doesn't matter but I have a really tight quiet car and it's the last remaining little noisy nuance.
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