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ekacpuc Samba Member
Joined: December 08, 2010 Posts: 1414 Location: ketchikan alaska
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Posted: Fri Feb 26, 2021 11:15 pm Post subject: Valve guide |
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Just fact checking..
I have a low miles set of tims stage 2 heads. I messed up a valve guide pulling a lash cap off (anger, vice grips and a hammer are a bad mix). I contacted a machinist about what would be required to correct it. He informed me he’d replace the guides and I didn’t need to send the valves in to him.
Now as a kid I’ve done valve guides before and just lapped new valves in. I didn’t care about performance. I’ve read that the proper way would be to replace the guides, then adjust the seats checking the new valves to make them line up (centered and depth).
So I’m wondering if since the seats are still good if there’s no need to mess with them.. heck if that’s the case I’ll just replace my own guides and check where the seats hit on the valves (they’re new)... |
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66brm Samba Member
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Joined: January 25, 2010 Posts: 3676 Location: Perth Western Australia
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Posted: Sat Feb 27, 2021 5:04 am Post subject: Re: Valve guide |
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Valve seat cutting/ grinding is done using the guide as a "guide" for where the valve will sit when closed. How is the machinist going to size or ream the guide to the correct clearance if they don't have the valve in hand to measure? The valve seat contact will need to be at the very least lapped if not recut to get a good seal _________________ Aust. RHD 66 Type 1
Aust. RHD 57 Type 1 Oval
modok wrote: |
I am an expert at fitting things in holes, been doing it a long time |
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ekacpuc Samba Member
Joined: December 08, 2010 Posts: 1414 Location: ketchikan alaska
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Posted: Sat Feb 27, 2021 5:53 am Post subject: Re: Valve guide |
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66brm wrote: |
Valve seat cutting/ grinding is done using the guide as a "guide" for where the valve will sit when closed. How is the machinist going to size or ream the guide to the correct clearance if they don't have the valve in hand to measure? The valve seat contact will need to be at the very least lapped if not recut to get a good seal |
I was wondering the same thing.. when I did guides I used a adjustable hand reamer.
I’ll prob just do it myself. Seats look great I just messed up a guide. Figure if when I goto lap the valves the contact looks off I’ll have a valve job done. At least the guides will be replaced (figure I might as well just do all of them). |
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Dan Ruddock Samba Member
Joined: October 25, 2012 Posts: 3626 Location: Sarasota, in my adopted state of Florida
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Posted: Sat Feb 27, 2021 6:14 am Post subject: Re: Valve guide |
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I would just replace the one guide. If it isn't broke don't fix it. You must cut the seat for every guide you replace. Is it a intake or exhaust guide? On heads cut for dual springs you have to be very careful if it is a intake guide, very easy to crack the guide boss. I like to use a coring drill for removal, berg has them. Heat head and chill guide when you install. Like to see a pic of the damaged guide. Dan
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=1007833
Last edited by Dan Ruddock on Sat Feb 27, 2021 6:26 am; edited 1 time in total |
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66brm Samba Member
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Joined: January 25, 2010 Posts: 3676 Location: Perth Western Australia
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Posted: Sat Feb 27, 2021 6:18 am Post subject: Re: Valve guide |
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Agreed, I would just do the one, otherwise you may end up with more issues _________________ Aust. RHD 66 Type 1
Aust. RHD 57 Type 1 Oval
modok wrote: |
I am an expert at fitting things in holes, been doing it a long time |
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Alstrup Samba Member
Joined: July 12, 2007 Posts: 7396 Location: Videbaek Denmark
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Posted: Sat Feb 27, 2021 6:19 am Post subject: Re: Valve guide |
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What Dan said.
If the heads are cut for dual valve springs, which I assume they are, I would repair the giude with a K line insert unless the guide is totally molested. _________________ https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=435993 |
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Dan Ruddock Samba Member
Joined: October 25, 2012 Posts: 3626 Location: Sarasota, in my adopted state of Florida
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Posted: Sat Feb 27, 2021 6:28 am Post subject: Re: Valve guide |
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Alstrup wrote: |
What Dan said.
If the heads are cut for dual valve springs, which I assume they are, I would repair the giude with a K line insert unless the guide is totally molested. |
Yes that is also a very good way to go. Dan |
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mark tucker Samba Member
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Joined: April 08, 2009 Posts: 23944 Location: SHALIMAR ,FLORIDA
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Posted: Sat Feb 27, 2021 9:45 am Post subject: Re: Valve guide |
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how is it effed up? |
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74 Thing Samba Member
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Joined: September 02, 2004 Posts: 7497
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Posted: Sat Feb 27, 2021 12:08 pm Post subject: Re: Valve guide |
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Post some photos |
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ekacpuc Samba Member
Joined: December 08, 2010 Posts: 1414 Location: ketchikan alaska
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Posted: Sat Feb 27, 2021 2:22 pm Post subject: Re: Valve guide |
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Doing one sounds wise. The rest feel good. It’s exhaust.
I was gonna core it but I’ll look into the liner
You can see it’s just a bit out of round in bottom pic at top guide towards right. The valve wiggles more than it should. It doesn’t look out of round in the exhaust port end. Valve wiggles more than it should though.
I prob shoulda got a puller.. I had empi caps mostly. I bought CB and empi at same time. Figured the CB was too tight and went to use the empi ones but I lost two empi so I used the CB against my best judgment for the two..
Last edited by ekacpuc on Sat Feb 27, 2021 2:45 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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ekacpuc Samba Member
Joined: December 08, 2010 Posts: 1414 Location: ketchikan alaska
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Posted: Sat Feb 27, 2021 2:31 pm Post subject: Re: Valve guide |
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Alstrup wrote: |
What Dan said.
If the heads are cut for dual valve springs, which I assume they are, I would repair the giude with a K line insert unless the guide is totally molested. |
Where might I find one? I’ll do a google but incase I don’t find it.. |
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ekacpuc Samba Member
Joined: December 08, 2010 Posts: 1414 Location: ketchikan alaska
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Posted: Sat Feb 27, 2021 2:34 pm Post subject: Re: Valve guide |
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mark tucker wrote: |
how is it effed up? |
I grabbed onto the lash caps with a pair of vice grips and tried persuade it off with a 2lb hammer.. it was a bit of a side hit. I had been working on it forever. This was after I used a compressor to get the keepers out. I thought/hoped the force from the springs would help me pop the cap off.
I actually had to cut it with a burr grinder and use the vice grips to squish/break the caps. I should have tried this first. Luckily I only used the hammer on the one.. |
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Alstrup Samba Member
Joined: July 12, 2007 Posts: 7396 Location: Videbaek Denmark
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ekacpuc Samba Member
Joined: December 08, 2010 Posts: 1414 Location: ketchikan alaska
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Posted: Sat Feb 27, 2021 3:22 pm Post subject: Re: Valve guide |
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Thanks. I found the kit on a US website.
I’m gonna just change the guide. Not a lot of faith in any machine shop. None in town (literally) so I have to ship. I contacted a few and wasn’t super impressed on top of shipping to/from Alaska is expensive and slow. I’ll pay what I have too but I have a hard time paying someone to do something that I can do myself. Tools are useful most of the time.
Where I work there is a machine shop. I’ll find out what tools they have though just incase.
I don’t see what the benefit of the liner is other than you don’t have to worry about breaking the guide boss. Is that what it is?
If I did break the guide boss they just tig it right? With very low heat I’m not sure if it’d distort the head but it doesn’t seam like that big of a deal. I’m a welder
I have the reamer to core the guide, a punch for 8mm guides to push it in and out and a adjustable reamer to adjust the clearance inside between guide and stem. I’m gonna go for it. Only the one guide. I also have access to a machine shop if I needed (industrial) so there is a couple hydraulic press there but I’m more comfortable with a hammer.
I’ll check the alignment after I change the guide. If it’s off I’ll send it in. If it’s close I’ll lap it. |
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frenchroast Samba Member
Joined: October 13, 2019 Posts: 686
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Posted: Sun Feb 28, 2021 7:46 pm Post subject: Re: Valve guide |
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ekacpuc wrote: |
The valve wiggles more than it should. |
I had the shop knurl the guides on my last rebuild and got good mileage out of them. You could do that or a new guide. Either way, if you're lucky, the valve will line up with the seat but you'll probably need to have it cut. I'm rebuilding my heads again (100k+ miles) right now and am putting in new guides. I'll ream the new guides and will either have a shop cut the seats or do it myself with some neway cutters. |
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ekacpuc Samba Member
Joined: December 08, 2010 Posts: 1414 Location: ketchikan alaska
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Posted: Sun Feb 28, 2021 8:45 pm Post subject: Re: Valve guide |
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frenchroast wrote: |
ekacpuc wrote: |
The valve wiggles more than it should. |
I had the shop knurl the guides on my last rebuild and got good mileage out of them. You could do that or a new guide. Either way, if you're lucky, the valve will line up with the seat but you'll probably need to have it cut. I'm rebuilding my heads again (100k+ miles) right now and am putting in new guides. I'll ream the new guides and will either have a shop cut the seats or do it myself with some neway cutters. |
Yeah I was looking into the cutters actually. It’s just one seat lol. I like to learn, even if I don’t do the work myself. Watched a couple videos of some guys fixing seats on new heads. Sure doesn’t look too tough to me.
There’s no machine shop in town. Looks like the last one closed down.
No automatic transmission shop either. I rebuilt a C6 transmission when I was a kid. After some people found out I did small jobs and actually paid for the tools I bought and made a very small profit. Was fun. Knowledge and tools aren’t a bad thing. |
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RWK Samba Member
Joined: June 24, 2009 Posts: 1467 Location: S.W. MI
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Posted: Mon Mar 01, 2021 5:18 am Post subject: Re: Valve guide |
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Easy way to get guide out is to drill it out from the rocker side just a little larger then 3/8 but don't go all the way thru, stop 3/8- 1/2 from chamber side, tap the guide on that side for 3/8-16 and screw in a bolt, then from rocker side drive guide out by putting a punch on the bolt you screwed into the guide. May have to drill larger to the boss on the rocker side to get head off guide. You won't damage head boss this way. _________________ 73 Type 181
63 Type 113
63 Type 261- 428 071
62 Type 241-378 025 178 530 |
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Dan Ruddock Samba Member
Joined: October 25, 2012 Posts: 3626 Location: Sarasota, in my adopted state of Florida
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Posted: Mon Mar 01, 2021 7:15 am Post subject: Re: Valve guide |
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The Berg coring drill is the best way to go. I have had mine for 30 years and has paid for itself many times. Can be re-sharpened, drills out enough of the guide for easy removal, does not walk off center and drill into the head, maintains the guide holes original size and shape. Cheap insurance to not screw it up. Good that it is the exhaust, if the boss is damaged you can just put in one of those dummy bosses which will fit my beehives. On the exhaust side there is plenty to hold the guide in place even if the boss is damaged, no need to weld it up. That is not to say go ahead screw it up, just be careful to keep the head as original as possible.
Dan |
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[email protected] Samba Member
Joined: August 15, 2002 Posts: 4394 Location: Brew City
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Posted: Mon Mar 01, 2021 8:49 am Post subject: Re: Valve guide |
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You guys all realize that the head is cut for dual springs, right? Depending on how thin the guide boss is, putting in an larger OD guide will most likely crack that. What does he do then? Run over to the guide boss store and then pick up a cutter for dual springs from Ace?
Also, if one guide comes loose, my philosophy is to replace EVERY guide. Why? Because the future cost of NOT doing that, having another guide come loose and then grenade the engine is VERY high compared to changing guides now.
Sure, it may be just fine replacing one and the engine may run for hundreds of thousands of worry free miles.....but what if it doesn't? _________________ Please "LIKE" us on facebook to see what we are working on.
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Cylinder Head Reference Sheet |
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mark tucker Samba Member
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Joined: April 08, 2009 Posts: 23944 Location: SHALIMAR ,FLORIDA
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Posted: Mon Mar 01, 2021 3:02 pm Post subject: Re: Valve guide |
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I will not use tight lash caps. Ive never seen a set of heads that had them that they did not fuck something up..... as for the looses ones being too loose for your likeing.... have ytou ever seen the oe fors lashcaps on the old small blocks??? the stems are 11/32"( .341) the end of the stem is machined down to probably 7 mm( .276") the lash cap fits like it's almost .020" too loose... and they work just fine. Ive taken 3/8" lash caps and bushed them down to 11/32" to use on my personal engine because.....my last set 11/32" lashcaps went on SOMEBODY ELSE's ENGINE!!! and I had lots of manley 3/8" lashcaps in stock. I never had any issue with them. |
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