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RandyV
Samba Member
Joined: November 23, 2019
Posts: 384
Location: So Cal
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 Posted: Tue Aug 27, 2024 10:08 am Post subject: Re: Horrible pinging/clanging after prolonged freeway speeds…. |
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Thanks Pablo!!
And those 2 slots appear to be in different places than the oil groove which Dave did not think much of. (You’re in Oregon I’d have to guess you know Dave too?)
But in those 2 slots (one at the bearing shoulder and one in the face of the spherical itself….any way to propose to Dave that those are significant enough to overcome any blocking by the daisy and/or bearing themselves?? (His reasoning for not finding worth in the oil groove at the top of the side cover inside) |
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RandyV
Samba Member
Joined: November 23, 2019
Posts: 384
Location: So Cal
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| Posted: Tue Sep 03, 2024 11:45 am Post subject: Re: Horrible pinging/clanging after prolonged freeway speeds…. |
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| gears wrote: |
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| And is that (in part or full) what would be considered VW Thing oiling mods?? |
You should also perform this mod toward the top of each cover, which allows some oil splash to be directed to your axle tubes:
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So Dave had a couple questions on side plate mods……
#1.). He doesn’t understand the hole going vertically down in the Ray Valero video. He understand the JC cerpt but says oil will be blocked by plastic daisy. Anything to add I can relay to him??
#2.). He doesn’t understand why the slotted homes are not centered on the Erco side plates?? (I identify 2 different slots but he was goi g to put them at the top but noticed they’re off center from the Erco logo. A particular reason????
Thx much! |
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gears
Samba Member
Joined: October 28, 2002
Posts: 4409
Location: Tamarack, Bend, Kailua
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| Posted: Wed Sep 04, 2024 5:25 pm Post subject: Re: Horrible pinging/clanging after prolonged freeway speeds…. |
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You should do whatever level of mods you're comfortable with to improve SD oiling, since that's almost assured to be the cause of your noise.
(lowered rear + poor SD oiling = trouble).
Here's a different cover with the same mods. On the other side, the daisy might block a bit of the flow, but not much.
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aka Pablo, Geary
9.36 @ 146 in '86 Hot & Sticky
'90 Syncro Westy SVX
'87 Syncro GL 2.5
https://guardtransaxle.com |
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jpaull
Samba Member
Joined: February 22, 2005
Posts: 3570
Location: Paradise, Ca
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| Posted: Wed Sep 04, 2024 5:43 pm Post subject: Re: Horrible pinging/clanging after prolonged freeway speeds…. |
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That does have alot of negative camber. Just curious, if the car was close to stock height, would it still have a oiling problem?
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[email protected] MPH 1/4 Mile & 8.1 @ 83.7MPH in 1/8 Mile with Mild Type 1 VW Mag Case 2234cc commuter engine in stock weight bug w/only .491 total lift(CB2292 Cam), 42x37 heads, 48idf's, Street tires, Belt on, Mufflers, Pump gas, video of the run here: https://youtu.be/M3SPqMOKAOg
Transmission by MCMScott:
Rhino case, Klinkenberg 4.12, Superdiff, 002 mainshaft with 091 first idler. Weddle 1.48 Third & 1.14 Fourth. |
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RandyV
Samba Member
Joined: November 23, 2019
Posts: 384
Location: So Cal
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| Posted: Wed Sep 04, 2024 5:55 pm Post subject: Re: Horrible pinging/clanging after prolonged freeway speeds…. |
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| jpaull wrote: |
| That does have alot of negative camber. Just curious, if the car was close to stock height, would it still have an oiling problem? |
Red car, yes. White car, no. Barely any negative camber at all actually.
As you know there are some ridiculously low, extremely negative camber type 1’s out on the roads (and has been) since the 80’s. My condition is a bit of a red herring imho, especially considering the company I keep. (I ride with dozens of lowered Volkswagens and I am one of the highest of the bunch)
The dozens I rode with in the 80’s I truly don’t remember a single one having a problem like mine. (In fact i recall diff & synchros being the issues back then but we were really just “2nd Gen”-ing early vw transaxles at that point.)
But we’ll figure this out. Mods are done. Trans back together. Actually designing new custom side covers (DFT) which will be the “incremental” improvement but the diff is significantly opened and ready to flow major oil. Axles fully polished, fulcrums grooved, side gears modded and there’s certainly no lack of trying.
We’ll see how she goes soon!
Last edited by RandyV on Wed Sep 04, 2024 10:13 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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RandyV
Samba Member
Joined: November 23, 2019
Posts: 384
Location: So Cal
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| Posted: Wed Sep 04, 2024 5:59 pm Post subject: Re: Horrible pinging/clanging after prolonged freeway speeds…. |
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| gears wrote: |
You should do whatever level of mods you're comfortable with to improve SD oiling, since that's almost assured to be the cause of your noise.
(lowered rear + poor SD oiling = trouble).
Here's a different cover with the same mods. On the other side, the daisy might block a bit of the flow, but not much.
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Thanks Paul. Got with Ken yesterday and clocking is sorted. (He didn’t realize I have several CNC’s at the ready.) 😉
Oh and Dave says “Hi”.
😎 |
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theastronaut
Samba Member
Joined: November 19, 2007
Posts: 1635
Location: Anderson, SC
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| Posted: Thu Sep 05, 2024 6:29 pm Post subject: Re: Horrible pinging/clanging after prolonged freeway speeds…. |
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Had this problem on my '63 vert. Wiped out the axles and fulcrums with an interstate trip and lots of camber.
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'64 Beetle Sunroof OG Bahama Blue
'63 Beetle Vert
'66 Beetle
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jpaull
Samba Member
Joined: February 22, 2005
Posts: 3570
Location: Paradise, Ca
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| Posted: Thu Sep 05, 2024 6:36 pm Post subject: Re: Horrible pinging/clanging after prolonged freeway speeds…. |
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In case anyone is setting up swing axle end gears and fulcrum plates, I did a brief write up on this as the details are not talked about often:
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=743995&highlight=
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[email protected] MPH 1/4 Mile & 8.1 @ 83.7MPH in 1/8 Mile with Mild Type 1 VW Mag Case 2234cc commuter engine in stock weight bug w/only .491 total lift(CB2292 Cam), 42x37 heads, 48idf's, Street tires, Belt on, Mufflers, Pump gas, video of the run here: https://youtu.be/M3SPqMOKAOg
Transmission by MCMScott:
Rhino case, Klinkenberg 4.12, Superdiff, 002 mainshaft with 091 first idler. Weddle 1.48 Third & 1.14 Fourth. |
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RandyV
Samba Member
Joined: November 23, 2019
Posts: 384
Location: So Cal
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| Posted: Sat Sep 07, 2024 11:10 am Post subject: Re: Horrible pinging/clanging after prolonged freeway speeds…. |
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Thanks for that!! Although I'm surprised yours area as flat across the length as they are. (And, yes, Empi had some axle issues a couple years ago which seems to have since been resolved but Dave's making his own axles these days in both 4340 and 300M so plenty of axle goodness right here at home)
But 2 issues he's had with Weddle fulcrums.....
#1.) Taper! They were never flat and he'd always have to send them out to be precision ground
#2.) Material! They wore quite quickly in comparison to OG German fulcrums.
I think the oiling grooves area a great idea (thus they'll be implemented in a slightly different design in mine) but fulcrums will remain German metal for now.
I'll suggest perhaps we take a look at the Weddles again & see if things have improved. |
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modok
Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2009
Posts: 27229
Location: Colorado Springs
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| Posted: Sat Sep 07, 2024 1:07 pm Post subject: Re: Horrible pinging/clanging after prolonged freeway speeds…. |
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Your tendency to look at every aspect except the clearance causes me extreme frustration.
Being .002" out of parallel isn't going to do anything. It's the clearance that matters. Or is it twice that? three times?
And in any case we use measurements to measure things. i don't care what measurement, SOME kind of measurement. Inches, mm, meters, stacks of printer paper, whatever.
I don't know how bad an empi axle is... but I would LIKE to know with measurements, not vague accusations.
And far as oil flow, what you need to understand is that many things are lubricated with oil mist, aka, windage, coming off the gears. A dead end passage does not experience any through-flow.
Just allowing multiple paths for windage flow through an area will aid flow THROUGH the area, does not matter which way is up or where you think the oil will flow, if you give it multiple paths then it will flow through somehow, while just being one path or a dead end then it won't flow through there.
Needing a CNC machine to make a hole? hmmm, very first world problems. not sure how to process that. Don't have that problem here. |
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RandyV
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Joined: November 23, 2019
Posts: 384
Location: So Cal
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| Posted: Sat Sep 07, 2024 6:11 pm Post subject: Re: Horrible pinging/clanging after prolonged freeway speeds…. |
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| modok wrote: |
Your tendency to look at every aspect except the clearance causes me extreme frustration.
Being .002" out of parallel isn't going to do anything. It's the clearance that matters. Or is it twice that? three times?
And in any case we use measurements to measure things. i don't care what measurement, SOME kind of measurement. Inches, mm, meters, stacks of printer paper, whatever.
I don't know how bad an empi axle is... but I would LIKE to know with measurements, not vague accusations.
And far as oil flow, what you need to understand is that many things are lubricated with oil mist, aka, windage, coming off the gears. A dead end passage does not experience any through-flow.
Just allowing multiple paths for windage flow through an area will aid flow THROUGH the area, does not matter which way is up or where you think the oil will flow, if you give it multiple paths then it will flow through somehow, while just being one path or a dead end then it won't flow through there.
Needing a CNC machine to make a hole? hmmm, very first world problems. not sure how to process that. Don't have that problem here. |
Not sure if this is directed at me, but I'll try to ease some of your frustration.
Measurements are fine & dandy, I've lived in the machine world for 35 years and measured plenty. If you're talking spade to fulcrum, I believe mine were approx .005" as installed by Dave originally.... but lack of oil at ANY measurement will still leave parts dry and thus create a problem. Again....I don't recall these problems 30 years ago aside from Bajas...(I recall Dave once showing me an axle boot that had nearly melted on a baja swing due to extreme positive camber).....but don't ever recall what I just experienced in the last month in my 50+ years. Thus my desire to understand WHY this might happen. Remember ANY diff, even closed up SD is still plumbed for oil flow. All we're really doing here is our best attempt at *more*. Same thing for side plates. The pumpkin is a literal bathtub of oil til gears start moving....holes in a side plate are just a hope that oil can be specifically directed to points of concern.
All avenues for increased flow are being executed and even expanded upon and Dave will most definitely assure proper clearance at every point of contact. I will give those #'s as soon as he's done. (He's advised he'll probably loosen it up a bit but NO amount of space between metals or lack thereof will mean diddly if there is no oil to both lubricate and cool.) And....(here's where your comments make *me* scratch my head a little)......No *assumption* that oil will flow by simply making holes is any kind of guarantee that it will. (a la windage trays in sumps). I consider it wise to ascertain WHY oil might flow thru an area to assure it really WILL rather than *assume* that it will.
On to Empi axles........A couple years ago...(You can probably find the thread here)...Empi had an issue where axles were machined out of tolerance. Dave had a few....(thus his new line of axles circa 2021). For the most part, the shoulders at the threaded/splined end of the axles needed to be cut back significantly to allow axles/tubes/drums to sit in their proper place. (I don't recall exact amounts but it was in the order of .300-.400") Empi quietly resolved the issue shortly thereafter and it got swept under the rug.
I do have to lean on Dave's expertise here as he's been at this longer than most and when *he* has questions, you bet I'm going to as well.
Hope that helps. |
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modok
Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2009
Posts: 27229
Location: Colorado Springs
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| Posted: Sat Sep 07, 2024 10:34 pm Post subject: Re: Horrible pinging/clanging after prolonged freeway speeds…. |
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It wasn't directed at you alone, I'm not seeing anybody talking numbers.
this joint is going to have clearances, and to do science we need to keep track of what that clearance is.
if it's stuck, that's due to not having clearance, period. Right?
Why that happened, that can be more complex, but if it's stuck, that means your clearance is zero at some dimension, thus the problem.
Due to heat, or snowballing into a mess, we have at least eliminated the mess part, so it's just getting tired waiting for you to check the next logical suspect.
it is a rather complex joint, but seems simple enough to put a dial indicator on something and wiggle it. |
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modok
Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2009
Posts: 27229
Location: Colorado Springs
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| Posted: Sat Sep 07, 2024 11:14 pm Post subject: Re: Horrible pinging/clanging after prolonged freeway speeds…. |
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hell I hate to admit it but I ran on the highway once for quite awhile with no oil at all in the transmission.
I suspected something was amiss, just a little louder than normal, so later I stopped at jiffy lube.
They took out the drain plug and nothing came out.
eh, it was a 400$ car, so, whatever.
ran it for thousands of miles after that. |
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