TheSamba.com :: View topic - Porsche 356 vs Type 1 Engine Build Options

Tue Oct 03, 2023 5:26 pm

(Having written this all out, it ends up being a long introduction, but there is a ligit question at the end.)

My first car was a '63 Bug that I drove through high school and the first couple years of college back in the 1980s. Great memories and I have kept an eye on the air-cooled world ever since. I finally got to a point of rejoining the fold with a '64 356c coupe project. And it's a big project... original engine long gone, lots of body/floor replacement work, etc.

I have a year (or more) of body work ahead of me, but when done, I'd like to use the car for more than local cars and coffee runs. Trips to visit family in S. Utah and California are part of the plan, so it needs to keep up with a 80 MPH speed limit for hours at a time on I-15.

Wilhoit (and a couple others) build an impressive 356 based 150HP engine for an equally impressive price.

Since the number matching engine for my car is long gone, I'm thinking Type 1 would give me more HP per $ and be as reliable if done right.

The transmission is being rebuilt with a Skirmants tall 4th gear, but 80 MPH still translates into ~ 3700 RPM.

Folks on the 356 forums say the Porsche engine will happily turn 4K all day long with no adverse effects.

I've talked to a couple Type 1 builders who recommend the larger displacement VW engine stay under 3400 RPM for sustained periods. Brief runs up to 5K are fine, but sitting at 3800 RPM for three hours of desert highway cruise is asking a bit much of the 150HP Type 1 engine.

I would run twin remote oil coolers (one in each wheel well) a good sized oil breather/catch-can on the firewall, plus cylinder head temperature gauge, but is there something beyond heat that makes this application a challenge for the Type 1 case?

The chassis and disc brakes of the 356c are up to the task, but I'm hoping to find a reliable Type 1 build plan that won't have me rebuilding the engine every 25K miles. 150HP (similar to the original Carrara output) is where I'd like to be, but something a little less would probably do the job if it would be better suited to the RPMs we'll be seeing.

What does the Samba Performance Engine group suggest?

Thanks in advance,

Chris

Tue Oct 03, 2023 5:33 pm

You can build a nice 2180 with 150hp for half or less than the cost of a similar 356/912 based engine.

Tue Oct 03, 2023 6:13 pm

from an investment perspective (I have no idea if this is a consideration of yours or not) the 356 engine will be a much better choice. You're already investing a lot of time and money into bodywork and paint, and the rest of the drivetrain. The VW engine is appealing at first glance because of the *generally* cheaper price...but I have to ask, do you really need 150 hp? Have you driven a 356 with 150 hp? thats a lot, and way more than enough to cruise 70-75mph. The 356 is a very slippery car, and travels at speed with ease. With a wheelbase 11 inches SHORTER than a beetle, they can get squirelly quick, and 150hp will get you there.

its pretty easy, and not that expensive to build a 356 engine that makes 120-125hp. The LARGE displacement 356 engines are ridiculously expensive, and the benefit probably doesn't outweigh the cost for that route...As far as cooling goes, the heads on 356 engines are FAR superior to VW heads in that regard. If you're going to run dual remote coolers, than oil cooling is not an issue at all. That leaves cooling the heads, which are actually air AND oil cooled.

as far as durability and longevity, either engine platform is up to the task if built correctly with quality parts. If not, either engine will fail quickly and be a massive headache.

Tue Oct 03, 2023 6:17 pm

Good question.
You have clearly noticed these days it's popular to build weekend warrior type of engines which can produce 160 peak hp, but is only capable of 80/90 hp sustained.
There is something sad about that, considering the history of these vehicles, but also it's not necessarily wrong.

85 hp should support 100 mph in a speedster.
Is that not enough?

The NEED to "keep up" with modern cars on the road in order to feel relevant is diminishing every year, so, the interest in maximizing sustained HP is diminishing also.

Also I have noticed........(and please do not take personal offense) that kitcar owners as a whole tend to be more interested in form than function.
Result being....... they are not willing to use the ideal intake and exhaust manifolding and engine bay venting that would be needed to maximize cruising speed. So WITh the restriction of using a lot of the wrong parts, max displacement is still the best way to make the most usable power to show off with. the max crusing rpm actuall goes DOWN, tho not below 4000 RPM imo mechanically. even a large stroker should be able to handle 4k unless there is some problem with the cooling fan and/or manifold tuning.

So, I am skeptical that "what you think you want" is really what you want.
but if it is, then, that's cool, I may have a few hints for you.

Tue Oct 03, 2023 6:19 pm

Polo 4 cylinder 911 engine.

Emory Outlaw

Tue Oct 03, 2023 6:25 pm

very helpful as usual Glenn..

Tue Oct 03, 2023 6:33 pm

sled wrote: very helpful as usual Glenn..

Tue Oct 03, 2023 6:46 pm

A nicely built mild type 4 engine will do what you want all day to Sunday, cost less and last longer than a hyped up type 1 engine.

Tue Oct 03, 2023 6:49 pm

I concur.
Nice venting on that "outlaw' :wink:
even the magical porsche engine seems to be needing a bit more venting :lol:

Tue Oct 03, 2023 6:50 pm

oprn wrote: A nicely built mild type 4 engine will do what you want all day to Sunday, cost less and last longer than a hyped up type 1 engine.
Raby has a Type 4 2430 that fits in a 356. I'm sure you can get a detuned version.

https://aircooledtechnology.com/product/2430-performer-engine-for-porsche-356-cars/

Tue Oct 03, 2023 8:59 pm

Fair points:
356 with regular non number matching 356 engine is $ > than 356 with very good type 1 engine.
356 is a momentum car, you don’t really need 150hp (even if the top spec in 1964 had 160).
Type 4 is a stronger case than either 356 or Type 1
Polo 4 cylinder 911 engine is amazing

Some additional information on my situation:
I am not your typical 356 owner… kind of grabbed the bottom rung/sweat equity option and have to keep an eye my build budget.
My wife and I make a trip down to southern Utah or California every couple months. I would love to build the car to handle that trip. (80mph is the speed limit for most of the way and the slow lane is going 85.)
AC would be required May to September. (Getting in the weeds here, but stay with me.)
https://www.classicretrofit.com/en-us/collections/electric-air-conditioning
Makes a nice electric AC kit for the early 911 that could be adapted to the 356 without cutting anything. It needs a high output alternator. The Bergman/911 style fan shroud would allow space for a large alternator.

I don’t see putting the 911 shroud on a 356 or 912 motor.
Type 4 might be the way to go with a traditional AC compressor, but the plumbing would be more difficult than the electric system.
Type 4 engines seem to run close to 356 engines cost wise… but maybe I’m looking in the wrong places. Type 1 parts and options seem to have much wider support.
Once I have the car on the road, I can watch for a 356 case near my serial number. Then when it is time to sell, I include a “period correct” engine for the purists who want to go slower with less AC maybe?

Wed Oct 04, 2023 4:24 am

If you build it yourself, you can build a T4 of that power range the same if not cheaper than a T1. Keep in mind that is a pretty hopped up T1, but a somewhat mild t4.way more cooling capacity and rugged for sustained higher output.

If you are choosing between a T1 and a 356 for sustained power, the 356 heads have a lot more cooling capacity than T1. The exhaust port location/cross section block a lot of air flow on a T1. The 356 is roughly the same location, but is skinnier, and has more cooling surface around it.

Wed Oct 04, 2023 4:29 am

No matter how much HP you have drivers are always going to ride your ass.It happens to me all the time in my '67 Beetle with 2054cc as well as my buddies. So as needing to spend the money to 'keep up with traffic' I would consider that. Personally what I believe is the advantage of a higher HP engine is the ability to get OUT of traffic easily and that can be accomplished with VW based engine for much less money. In the meantime you can always piece together a 356 engine as budget allows. My .02

Wed Oct 04, 2023 5:37 am

The cost of putting a type 4 engine together is totally dependent on how resourceful you are and how much of the work you do. I bought a rolled over Westy for $350, used the transaxle in the sand rail and the engine for a core for the street Buggy. The engine got a new cam, rebuilt stock 1700 heads, new bearings and rings, already had 96mm cylinders that I honed, used 40mm Webers and a used crank trigger ignition. Built my own exhaust system to for less than 1/2 the price of what you can buy.

So for about a $2700 investment I have a 1911cc type 4 that is in the 95-100 HP range at 5000 rpm that will keep up with the traffic and still be running when I am dead and gone.

Start with a 2.0L, a better cam, better heads and you will be right there where you want to be for not much more if you do most of the work.

Wed Oct 04, 2023 6:35 am

I owned a 356 for forty years so I know it's limitations well. If a good heater and AC is a big deal for your California trips, I would choose my 2016 Miata over a 356. With that said a high HP 356 for fun and short trips would be a lot of fun.

I lean toward a T1 engine. All these engines have their own pros and cons. I have hot rodded both the T1 and the 356 engine, the T1 is much easier to make more power cheaper and it will fit into a 356 with less fab work than the T4. Check my gallery for pics of my 356 which I no longer own. I pushed it out to 1904cc back in 1980. Not a fan of the Wilholt ideas, making the rod journal tiny so a long stroke will fit is not a good idea. The T1 is just a bigger engine than the 356 which is based on the 36hp VW.

Wed Oct 04, 2023 8:16 am

Glenn wrote: You can build a nice 2180 with 150hp for half or less than the cost of a similar 356/912 based engine.

What are the pro/cons of Type 1 2180 vs 2332? I assume costs would be a little more for the 2332, but is the 2180 a lower stress build = longer lived?

Polo and Raby builds are outside my budget unfortunately.

Wed Oct 04, 2023 8:36 am

Chris in Utah wrote: Glenn wrote: You can build a nice 2180 with 150hp for half or less than the cost of a similar 356/912 based engine.

What are the pro/cons of Type 1 2180 vs 2332? I assume costs would be a little more for the 2332, but is the 2180 a lower stress build = longer lived?

Polo and Raby builds are outside my budget unfortunately.

for your application (light and slippery 356) there is no difference between a 2180 and 2332. They cost the same and will last the same.

one of them has an 82mm stroke crank, and the other an 84mm
one of them has 92mm cylinders, and the other 94mm's

if you decide to go type 1, I would definitely build a 2276 or 2332

I would stay away from the 911 style shrouds

keep in mind, the stock air intake on the body of the 356 was designed to support much lower HP demands. You are going to have the oil taken care of with two remote coolers, but you might want to look into getting more air into the engine compartment. Maybe twin grills like found on very select factory cars?

Wed Oct 04, 2023 8:43 am

sled wrote: from an investment perspective (I have no idea if this is a consideration of yours or not) the 356 engine will be a much better choice. You're already investing a lot of time and money into bodywork and paint, and the rest of the drivetrain. The VW engine is appealing at first glance because of the *generally* cheaper price...but I have to ask, do you really need 150 hp? Have you driven a 356 with 150 hp? thats a lot, and way more than enough to cruise 70-75mph. The 356 is a very slippery car, and travels at speed with ease. With a wheelbase 11 inches SHORTER than a beetle, they can get squirelly quick, and 150hp will get you there.

its pretty easy, and not that expensive to build a 356 engine that makes 120-125hp. The LARGE displacement 356 engines are ridiculously expensive, and the benefit probably doesn't outweigh the cost for that route...As far as cooling goes, the heads on 356 engines are FAR superior to VW heads in that regard. If you're going to run dual remote coolers, than oil cooling is not an issue at all. That leaves cooling the heads, which are actually air AND oil cooled.

as far as durability and longevity, either engine platform is up to the task if built correctly with quality parts. If not, either engine will fail quickly and be a massive headache.

Everything associated with the 356 carries a Porsche tax, plus the additional classic Porsche tax. That said, if I could figure out a way to get 150 Amps out of the 356 generator footprint, I would probably pay both taxes and be happy with a 120hp 356 build.

I appreciate the detail on the Porsche heads though. Other than the offset exhaust valve layout I don't really have a handle on the key differences between the 356 engine and the VW it was based on...

Wed Oct 04, 2023 8:52 am

Chris in Utah wrote: sled wrote: from an investment perspective (I have no idea if this is a consideration of yours or not) the 356 engine will be a much better choice. You're already investing a lot of time and money into bodywork and paint, and the rest of the drivetrain. The VW engine is appealing at first glance because of the *generally* cheaper price...but I have to ask, do you really need 150 hp? Have you driven a 356 with 150 hp? thats a lot, and way more than enough to cruise 70-75mph. The 356 is a very slippery car, and travels at speed with ease. With a wheelbase 11 inches SHORTER than a beetle, they can get squirelly quick, and 150hp will get you there.

its pretty easy, and not that expensive to build a 356 engine that makes 120-125hp. The LARGE displacement 356 engines are ridiculously expensive, and the benefit probably doesn't outweigh the cost for that route...As far as cooling goes, the heads on 356 engines are FAR superior to VW heads in that regard. If you're going to run dual remote coolers, than oil cooling is not an issue at all. That leaves cooling the heads, which are actually air AND oil cooled.

as far as durability and longevity, either engine platform is up to the task if built correctly with quality parts. If not, either engine will fail quickly and be a massive headache.

Everything associated with the 356 carries a Porsche tax, plus the additional classic Porsche tax. That said, if I could figure out a way to get 150 Amps out of the 356 generator footprint, I would probably pay both taxes and be happy with a 120hp 356 build.

I appreciate the detail on the Porsche heads though. Other than the offset exhaust valve layout I don't really have a handle on the key differences between the 356 engine and the VW it was based on...

I trust me, I understand very well :lol: , I have an early '53 pre-A. Porsche tax ain't a joke!!

that being said I have a hard time imagining a VW engine in there, but I understand from a cost perspective. Try building a correct '53 engine, they only make 55-70 hp and cost 25-30k! :x

porsche and T4 heads are exponentially superior to T1 from a cooling stand point. The T1 head was designed to cool a low compression lump of an an engine that maxed out at 55-60 horsepower. The design and layout of cooling fins has not changed one bit on "performance" heads we are all using now. So is the cooling capacity of 60hp sufficient for 150hp? well yes and no, through careful tuning and attention to detail with cooling tin, we have managed to make the T1 head support way more power and live many miles to tell the tale.

Wed Oct 04, 2023 9:06 am

Well, dependant on exactly which 4rth gear you have installed you have more or less shot yourself in the foot wrt using a 356 SC as a basis for your build. 616 engines are NOT torque engines as such, so they do not like high ratio´s. a built 616 to say the cheap solution, 1720 with the right cam etc etc. can do the job just fine. 115-120 hp with a good torque band is relatively easily done. Such an engine will do 80 mph all day, even with a slightly taller 4rth.
Wrt cruise speed. A stock 356 SC (95hpp) is DESIGNED to cruise at 85 - 90 mph all day. so no worries there.
If you add an A/C and a taller gearing you will of course need some more displacement and power to pull that.
150 hp on tap is of course nice, but it is not necessary to reach the requirements you are after.
The 616 engines are expensive piceces of real estate. So if you are not prudent with what engine is in it you may even want to look at a Subie conversion.
If you want to keep it aircooled- and "cheap" the type 1 is probably the answer.
One note. DO NOT fall into the trap of getting the cheapest big valve big cc hot rod style engine you can find. Sadly the hot rod/weekend warrior style engines are what most shops sell. (There are a few good shops around) A type 1 engine which will handle your requirements can easily be built. You just have to think more Europeian style than CA style. last thing engine wise. If you decide on type 1 especially, it would be very beneficial to elimminate the stock cooler and cool it all externally, (I am however not super fond of the fender solution for several reasons, but it can work.) Reason is that the 356 is not overly good at getting air into the engine compartement, so if you can use all the cooling air to cool the heads´n cylinders it would be good.

All this said, one word though. In order to "Keep up" with traffic I wholeheartedly recommend that you replace all bushings, get new(better) shocks and get a set of aftermarket 5,5" rim with decent tyres. and finally a good 4 wheel alignment.