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Fri Jul 14, 2023 1:56 pm

Hi friends,

Here's an interesting one about a starter solenoid that doesn't fire unless I remove and reinstall the starter. This is a hassle and makes refueling difficult since I can't count on it to restart after I turn it off to fill up. I can push-start it without an issue. Once started the engine runs beautifully.

1987 Vanagon GL Manual 2.3L (GoWesty upgraded Wasserboxer). Battery fully charged and tested good.

Here's the run-down...

In May of last year I replaced my OEM starter with the GoWesty Gear Reduction Starter (Manual) because the old starter had a fairly consistent issue with not working at all when the ENGINE IS WARM. Basically a “hot-no-start” issue with the starter solenoid. It would always start normally when cold, but after the engine came up to temp, the solenoid wouldn't fire and of course the starter motor wouldn’t turn the engine.

The new starter seemed to fix the problem – for awhile. After some weeks, the same problem returned: solenoid will not fire (no click)

Steps I’ve taken to isolate the issue when the ill-condition exists:

bypass ignition switch at the ignition switch connector (jumping the input pin 30 to the output pin 50) trying to get the solenoid to fire - no change

removed starter and bench check - works 100% of the time. Replace starter, system working normally - for a while then problem returns.

temporarily wired from battery positive terminal directly touched to starter solenoid terminal to get solenoid to fire - worked in the past, not recently.

(of note) last summer I replaced the EOM engine (275K original miles!) with the GoWesty 2.3L everything has been working GREAT after that, except he starter issue has returned. :(

Basically, a new starter and a new engine has the same issue as the old starter and the old engine.

The last thing I did about a month ago was replace two spade connectors at ignition switch connector and the terminal that gets screwed onto solenoid in case there was an internally broken wire or bad connection.

After this last effort the starter worked reliably 100% of the time for about a month. I thought I had solved the problem. However, the problem has returned, and none of the other tricks I was able to do previously to get the solenoid to fire aren’t working (like string a wire from the battery to tap the solenoid into action manually). The solenoid is dead installed but works on the bench. In the past, the solenoid would work once the engine cooled down, however, this time it will not fire at all - even when hit directly from the battery.

Today I confirmed the solenoid would not fire. I removed the starter, bench-tested it. As I suspected, it works fine on the bench. Reinstalled, and again, as expected, it started right up. Ran three errands, started fine for the first two stops, wouldn’t start the third time. Solenoid not firing. (ARGH!) I’m afraid to drive it now unless I know I can park it on a hill to push-start it.

I'm wondering if there is a poor ground connection, though I made sure the ground strap was free from corrosion on all mating surfaces when I installed the new 2.3L engine.

Honestly, this feels like a mechanical issue, more than an electrical one.

Can you help me with some ideas on what could be at the heart of this intermittent problem? I suppose the solenoid could be failing, but it’s just so coincidental that this is the exact same problem as I experienced with the previous OEM starter. GoWesty has been responsive but not super helpful, unfortunately.

Thoughts?

Thank you!

Fri Jul 14, 2023 2:30 pm

Take your quality jumper cables and clamp one cable to the starter housing and the other end to a good ground spot on the chassis.

Your bench test is also eliminating the vans battery and the battery positive cable.

Another option might be using a jumper pack from below. Attach it to the battery positive stud on the solenoid and the starter housing. This essentially eliminates the big cables and van battery. Try with ignition first. If no luck, with the jumper back still connected jump the solenoid. Make sure the van is not in gear and brake is set.

Fri Jul 14, 2023 3:08 pm

This is almost certainly an electrical issue. Either low voltage at the battery itself or excess voltage drop somewhere or more likely at multiple places. Get hold of a voltmeter and watch videos about voltage drop testing. Voltage drop testing only works on circuits that are loaded. Current must be flowing through the circuit to measure the voltage drop.

After all poor connections and conductors have been addressed a starter relay would be a good thing. Short of that bring a wire from terminal #50 (starter command) at the solenoid up to the engine compartment so that you can command the starter motor manually. I did this in my Syncro because I might drive a long way from any help and any machine can malfunction.

Fri Jul 14, 2023 3:57 pm

Fit a wire from one side (+12v) 13mm nut of the solenoid and a heavy duty switch with easy access down to the other 13mm so you can manually activate the starter ,do another one from the +12v 13mm side to the starter/key spade and wait for the fault to come back. See which dosn't work and you will have the culprit narrowed down through deduction .

Fri Jul 14, 2023 4:00 pm

You are not getting decent power to the starter and its solenoid. The OG ignition switch to fire the solenoid is a terrible idea. There is too much draw and the current path is too long with too many connectors. Install a hard start relay immediately and if the battery ground on the tin is decent, then you won't have a problem. It also sounds like your solenoid wire terminal is suspect. When you install the hard start relay, replace that with a new one. EVERYTHING back at the starter needs to be shiny and protected with a conducting grease. Also, this is a good time to eliminate the tranny ground and make a new one direct from the starter mounting bolts to the body. There are a ton of topics on both of these issues and why they both need to be done because of poor longevity engineering in W'burg.

Duncan

Fri Jul 14, 2023 4:39 pm

I had similar issues to this. this is my update on mine (working for now) - https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=10082540#10082540

topic title - starter works only if batt is more than 12.4v - Starter or batt?

Fri Jul 14, 2023 5:15 pm

Virtualmo, A photo or some way to identify which starter you have. Is it a Bosch gear reduction unit or something else?
https://vancafe.com/bosch-hi-torque-starter-upgrade-kit/

Fri Jul 14, 2023 5:30 pm

xflyer wrote: Virtualmo, A photo or some way to identify which starter you have. Is it a Bosch gear reduction unit or something else?
https://vancafe.com/bosch-hi-torque-starter-upgrade-kit/

https://gowesty.com/products/gear-reduction-starter-manual

Fri Jul 14, 2023 5:31 pm

Thank you all for lots of really helpful suggestions.

I'll spend more time on it this weekend and come back with an update.

Fri Jul 14, 2023 5:45 pm

Have you a new short direct ground wire from a starter bolt direct to chassis? The OEM ground strap at the front of the transmission is a known weak point, and can also harm the innards of the transmission.

https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=763545

Fri Jul 14, 2023 7:14 pm

fxr wrote: Have you a new short direct ground wire from a starter bolt direct to chassis? The OEM ground strap at the front of the transmission is a known weak point, and can also harm the innards of the transmission.

https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=763545

Thanks, I've spent so much attention on the positive side of the circuit, only recently have been thinking about the ground side. This makes a lot of sense to me.

Fri Jul 14, 2023 7:58 pm

Read the voltage between the metal of the solenoid body and the negative post on the battery, and also between the solenoid body and the chassis while you have someone turning the key for you. The voltage in either place should be close to nil, and if it isn't you likely have a bad connection somewhere on the ground side.

Sat Jul 15, 2023 7:52 am

virtualMo wrote:
In May of last year I replaced my OEM starter with the GoWesty Gear Reduction Starter (Manual) because the old starter had a fairly consistent issue with not working at all when the ENGINE IS WARM. Basically a “hot-no-start” issue with the starter solenoid. It would always start normally when cold, but after the engine came up to temp, the solenoid wouldn't fire and of course the starter motor wouldn’t turn the engine.

It's reasonable that the daisy-chain of
(outdoor, dissimilar metals, un-inspected, un-inspectable, non-maintainable, series-additive)
connections that make up the ground path could have a
resistance factor that changes with temperature.

virtualMo wrote: The new starter seemed to fix the problem – for awhile. After some weeks, the same problem returned: solenoid will not fire (no click)

How many times do we read of this on TheSamba?
More and more lately. Maybe it's a 30-year thing.

virtualMo wrote: Can you help me with some ideas on what could be at the heart of this intermittent problem? I suppose the solenoid could be failing, but it’s just so coincidental that this is the exact same problem as I experienced with the previous OEM starter. GoWesty has been responsive but not super helpful, unfortunately.

GoWesty has a LOT of momentum on the starter-replacement train.....
Overlooking the ground path is the last thing they wanna hear, because it suggests they have been mis-diagnosing starter problems for decades.

Read their tech-paper on starter problems.

I have owned rear-engine Porsches and VWs since 1974. I can't remember a single one that I've owned that did not have an occasional no-crank issue at some point in its life, either when cold or hot. Replacing the starter with a rebuilt Bosch unit would remedy the problem for a while, but sure enough—within a year or two—the same exact problem would return. For years I mulled this over, scheming possible solutions. This is the type of thing that drives engineers crazy.

Not a word about the daisy-chain of
(outdoor, dissimilar metals, un-inspected, un-inspectable, non-maintainable, series-additive)
unable to supply necessary current to the old or the new starter.

Copper.
One cable with two inspectable ends.
10-20 years late.....but better late than never.

But if you had years of this, your gearbox is eroded inside.
When you see a big black blob on the drain magnet....that was your gearbox bearings.

Who's gonna tell the Porsche fellers?
They ain't gonna listen....and gonna be mad too. :shock:

Sat Jul 15, 2023 9:52 am

I was helping a friend ( at CAMP !!! 8) ) who had an aftermarket starter and intermittent starting trouble.
He said it was pretty bad, about 20% no-start events.

But he was a hardhead too, would go under and bang on it or something, eventually getting going.
Notafraidofit.

For him, it was intermittent, but so far not "NEVER".

You can see he added a proper copper ground from starter mounting nut to chassis.
Which did not solve his starting problem.

Or so he thought.
I noticed the starter itself had a groundpath that consisted of a daisy-chain of dissimilar metals (outdoors too).
Right outta the gate!

So I did a voltage drop test across the starter itself and found 1.2v drop whenever the starter DID NOT crank.
When it did crank, the drop was about 0.35 volt which was suspect but not eye-popping like the 1.2v loss.

Vise grip is good to get a shiny connection for valid test results.

Anyway, he has added this little 12ga jumper and has not had a single starting problem since.
It's been successfull in a handful of starts since the jumper.

What's MORE alarming was that pushing on the starter body, there was visible movement in the stackup of dissimilar metals.
The starter body MOVES, visibly.
There's black dust in the part-to-part interface. ( a doooohhhh moment!)

:idea: Anyway, I think we're getting down to his problem. :idea: :!:
It's a Syncro thus has almost no access to tighten those long screws.

Also think about that mechanism inside that the current must arc across.
Perhaps going to the flywheel and trying to find a path to the ground at the cylinder head.
The huge current, trying to find any path to the ground cable will dry up grease, cause other stiction problems, gumming up the works, and eroding precision components.
If the solenoid contacts don't SLAM shut, they spark, and erode faster too.

If you understand this.... think about what 50-100 amps can do to the bearings inside your gearbox when current has to "find it's own way".
Isolate your gearbox from electricity. Remove that little ground at the front and replace it with a starter-direct ground.
Alternator too - use copper direct from case to chassis.

============================

How about this tagline to help HUNDREDS of Vanagon brothers and sisters?
Daisy chain ground is a stopper.
Copper is proper.

Honestly..... I don't see why proper grounding is so hard to convince.... as the FIRST step.
Like "DO NOTHING until you have renewed the 35 year-old ground path."
You cannot even do a proper diagnosis with a haphazard ground path.
Didn't anyone know this stuff 20 years ago?
Why in 2023 does nobody know this?

What is that specific aftermarket starter called (the brand)?
It seems like everyone who has that starter should add this short jumper.
Maybe 10ga wire or even 8ga if you can fit the terminals.
Where are the starter brushes 'grounded' inside that starter? (got pics?)

Sat Jul 15, 2023 10:14 am

With my TDI engine, I struggled with very similar circumstances for almost two years.

Long story short as to how it all unfolded, the ground cable at the transmission was the culprit even though I thought it was fine. I cleaned it again and again with basically the same results. Adding another ground cable directly to the engine block and a better spot on the body solved the problem. I did do the relay at the starter but that didn't make any difference. But, I recommend everyone to install that relay.

Lots of excellent suggestions for the OP to heed and consider.

Sat Jul 15, 2023 7:11 pm

Sodo, That short ground cable at the starter is a very smart idea. An electrical circuit has to be complete or undesirable results ensue.
Decades ago had a customer with a 181, known as the Thing in the USA. He also had a Dasher with diesel motor. We got the Dasher after many others had done work on it. Current problem was occasional slow cranking and no start. Inspecting the engine area found the throttle cable plastic housing melted, but no evidence of an engine fire. Checking further found the main ground cable from the battery to the bell housing not under a bolt at the trans end. Turned out a clutch replacement had been done recently. Attaching the ground cable and replacing the throttle cable fixed things. When cranking the engine the ground connection would go through the throttle cable whenever the loose main ground was not touching the bell housing. Also the glow plugs likely were starved for electricity because of the poor grounding of the engine/trans.
We're spoiled here in Cal as there is less of a problem with corrosion from road salt. Cars that live near the ocean get similar problems, if not as severe.
Always have to keep eyes open for green and black copper wires and connectors. Most mechanics are into replacing parts, not fixing trouble with electrical circuits.
Had to fix many cars that others "improved" by returning to stock and making sure connections were clean and tight.

Sat Jul 15, 2023 8:55 pm

Quote: GoWesty has a LOT of momentum on the starter-replacement train.....
Overlooking the ground path is the last thing they wanna hear, because it suggests they have been mis-diagnosing starter problems for decades.

When I reached out to them initially for support with this problem – with the starter they sold me for this issue – I was told, "Ignition switch is the first and easiest thing to try, just remove the lower steering column cover, unplug the ignition switch, plug in the new one and start the van with a screwdriver. If it starts consistently: it’s the switch. If not, it has to be the wiring between the switch and the starter."

That was a pretty disappointing response, especially after I detailed what I had done to troubleshoot, including bypassing the ignition switch. Hell, that was the first thing I did.

The whole idea of troubleshooting by replacing parts is a craft-less approach, IMO. Man, times have changed.

BTW: Earlier I suggested I was reluctant to drive my van due to this issue. To be more accurate, I drive it just as much, I'm just a lot more careful about what angle I park it. :wink:

Wed Jul 19, 2023 11:01 am

Quick update so ya'll don't think I took your advice and ran! Well, I did take your advise, and I did run with it. Unfortunately none of it solved the issue. I was so sure that cleaning up ground points was going to be the solution - I even added a beefy ground strap from the starter housing to the frame. I double checked all voltages and ohm-ed out every ground - I thought sure it was going to work. It didn't.

Today she was dead as a doornail. Out of a shear "hell, I've tried everything else" moment, for the first time I took a small ball-peen hammer and gently tapped two times here, then two times there on the starter housing. Guess what happened: It started right up.

I'm going to replace the starter. Not sure how long GoWesty warrants their gear reduction starter, I've had this one a little over a year. But hopefully I can get some love.

Wed Jul 19, 2023 12:48 pm

virtualMo wrote: Hi friends,

Here's an interesting one about a starter solenoid that doesn't fire unless I remove and reinstall the starter. (comes under the term "mechanical" in my opinion)

Honestly, this feels like a mechanical issue, more than an electrical one.

virtualMo wrote:

I'm going to replace the starter. Not sure how long GoWesty warrants their gear reduction starter, I've had this one a little over a year. But hopefully I can get some love.

I agree that the issue is likely "mechanical" with both the previous and present starter. However, some of the tests prove "current" may be involved as well.

So, if it were me, I'd go with an el-cheapo eBay knock-off China made. In a crunch a few years back (Auto-zone), I ended up with one of their China made el-cheaps with intent to replace it as soon as possible. It still works fine today (about 5 years later, my 89 with stock 2.1).

Side story: My uncle operated primarily a VW car service for almost 40 years serving college students back in the day. He saw a lot of crazy things with VW starters. He saw numerous Beetles with a hole cut in the body just above the starter (mostly 6 volt systems) with a hammer laying nearby to give the starter a whack if the Solenoid did not kick-in.

Wed Jul 19, 2023 12:50 pm

VirtualMo, Did you check the voltage at the "50" terminal, (the smaller wire attached to the solenoid, originally red with a black stripe) on the starter when the key is turned to "Crank"?

This was/is my history on "Nothing happens when I turn the key" , or "It won't start".
I started (LOL) in the 70s fixing cars. Many VWs, all rear engine air cooled then, had this symptom. Many times the starter and or the battery would be replaced. Sometimes the ground strap from the trans to the frame would be looked at or replaced.
Often the problem would be "fixed", for a while. Don't know who came up with the idea to install a relay in the circuit to the solenoid from the ignition switch. The successful ones used the "horn relay" off the Ghia. Which is just a standard 6 or 12 V relay. Some installed a Ford remote solenoid, which was less successful.
Some advocated "rewiring the car", this did not happen often probably due to cost. Anyway the starter relay works for almost everyone. Only failures that I've seen are from, dead batteries, corroded or disconnected wires, and a corroded relay (put it in the engine compartment or seal it with silicone glue).
So, yes starters can go bad, or be bad from the beginning.
Here's what I know about the "gear reduction starters": Those became available in the 1980s originally specced for racers with more ccs and or higher compression ratios that the OE starters had a hard time cranking. The "gear reduction starters" were sourced from a Japanese vehicle (Toyota truck IIRC) and many were sold. The discounters jumped in and sourced the "same" starter from a much lower cost maker/country. Quality went down and tales of woe began. When the Bosch rebuilt program for the rear engine VWs started having problems about 15-20 yrs ago, some vendors started advocating the "gear reduction starter".
So whether it is "gear reduction" or not is not that important. Apparently many are having success with other Bosch starters off newer vehicles, that are not "gear reduction". Quality control and willingness to stand behind a product (warranty) is important.
And, as I mentioned in an earlier post, charging system performance is also important. My 89 automatic was having occasional slow cranking, so I was looking at the different starters as it had a recent Bosch rebuilt in it. Replacing the voltage regulator with an adjustable one and setting it to charge at 14.2-14.4 VDC, cured all that. Bosch regulators struggled to get 13.4 VDC (long story behind that).
Hope you get your Vanagon running reliably.