TheSamba.com :: View topic - Front end lift on Baja bug advice needed…

Mon May 09, 2022 9:11 am

Hello everyone! I am new to this form, which has been very helpful on several things I’ve even working on my new project. I purchased a 1968 Baja bug down here in Baja California. It needed a complete front end rebuild, transmission mounts all around, new fuel pump, new Master cylinder and complete brakes, new shifter bushing and shift coupler, New main rear seal clutch disc etc. etc…
With the help of this form I have finished these things and it’s on the road and driving well, Just a few more things to make it perform better.Right now I’m looking at the front end. This bug has been raised 3 inches and I’m not sure how they accomplished it because it doesn’t have the adjustable ends on the torsion tubes nor raised spindles. There is little or no front suspension travel making for a very stiff ride up front. How did they do this lift? I didn’t think the torsion springs could be turned less than 180° at a time. Could they have turned them 90°? If so what would be an inexpensive fix to this stiff suspension? Can I remove one of the torsion pieces on each side? Would that allow for a softer ride? My ideal way to fix this would be to get raised spindles but I’m down here and Baja and to get them would be difficult and expensive. What I need is a “in the meantime” fix I can do until I’m able to drive the spindles down here on my next road trip south. I’m in los Barriles Baja which is quite a ways down. This bug won’t see

any high-speed driving… some dirt roads and pavement and not going over 40 mph most of the time. Let me know what you think and what advice you can give me. Thanks!

Kim

Mon May 09, 2022 10:58 am

The previous owner probably did a "Cut and Turn" on the front beam, look at the middle of the beam where the grub screws are and see if there is a weld on both sides of the grub screws. the rear was probably re-indexed to lift it some, does it clunk when you drive over bumps check and see if it has hook stops installed on the front trailing arms.

I only have the hook for down travel so it does not "Top Out" the shock,

eQ

Mon May 09, 2022 9:30 pm

Welcome

How are the shocks?

That bug doesn’t look raised 3 “

Tue May 10, 2022 6:37 am

earthquake wrote: The previous owner probably did a "Cut and Turn" on the front beam, look at the middle of the beam where the grub screws are and see if there is a weld on both sides of the grub screws. the rear was probably re-indexed to lift it some, does it clunk when you drive over bumps check and see if it has hook stops installed on the front trailing arms.
I only have the hook for down travel so it does not "Top Out" the shock,

eQ
You are correct! There are welds on either side of the grub screws. So what I’d like to do is to reduce the spring rate on the torsion straps. What’s the best procedure to do this? Can I get away with cutting one of the straps on either the top or bottom torsion springs? And then if the spring rate is still too high cut the other one? Do I leave the cut strap in the torsion stack? I’m looking for a more comfortable ride, my girlfriend will be driving and riding in this car and she has back and neck issues . And again there won’t be any high-speed off-road driving.

Tue May 10, 2022 12:39 pm

Is it possible to remove torsion leaves until you get the desired ride comfort?

Tue May 10, 2022 2:40 pm

Your best bet would be to try to find a beam that has not been modified and replace the one you have, I don't remember who make lift spindles but there available and they won't affect ride quality. you can re-index the rear torsion a degree or two and it shouldn't lower it to much but with lift spindles in the front it ride nose high.

eQ

Fri May 13, 2022 5:36 pm

Can you post a pic of the shocks as it’s sits?

Fri May 13, 2022 8:30 pm

My hardly humble opinion: the lift spindles worth having are Thing spindles. about 2 5/8" lift, large ball joints pointed down, speedo cable hole

if you exceed 6" of lift, which includes 3" chassis and 3" body lift, go wider to match the height increase.

Tue May 17, 2022 12:12 pm

earthquake wrote: Your best bet would be to try to find a beam that has not been modified and replace the one you have, I don't remember who make lift spindles but there available and they won't affect ride quality. you can re-index the rear torsion a degree or two and it shouldn't lower it to much but with lift spindles in the front it ride nose high.

eQ

I’d rather not go to the trouble of replacing the front beams. On further research on this site, I saw where through rods were used on the front trailing arms and then adjustable coil over shocks added. Then I could choose the spring rate that works and still put a lift on it. Has anyone had experience with this? Is this a good quality ride option? Do adjustable coil overs come in the stud type top mount my car will need? I know the front ball joints on my car will not be ideal for hard Offroad but that’s not what I’ll be doing with it.

Tue May 17, 2022 12:18 pm

Mikedrevguy wrote: Can you post a pic of the shocks as it’s sits?
Here’s some pics of the front as it sits now. I installed all new high clearance ball joints.

Tue May 17, 2022 6:05 pm

Akimbeau wrote: earthquake wrote: Your best bet would be to try to find a beam that has not been modified and replace the one you have, I don't remember who make lift spindles but there available and they won't affect ride quality. you can re-index the rear torsion a degree or two and it shouldn't lower it to much but with lift spindles in the front it ride nose high.

eQ

I’d rather not go to the trouble of replacing the front beams. On further research on this site, I saw where through rods were used on the front trailing arms and then adjustable coil over shocks added. Then I could choose the spring rate that works and still put a lift on it. Has anyone had experience with this? Is this a good quality ride option? Do adjustable coil overs come in the stud type top mount my car will need? I know the front ball joints on my car will not be ideal for hard Offroad but that’s not what I’ll be doing with it.

If you'd rather not replace the beam, but would rather replace your shocks with coilovers, then you haven' looked at the cost of coilover shocks. IF you find some Fox or similar coilover to fit (Fox, King and Bilstein ALL make shocks to bolt on to he front of your Bug, but not coilovers for that application), They will cost in the neighborhood of a couple of thousand US dollars. And I'm NOT talking about poor quality EMPI coilover shocks. Those a very poor shocks with a spring that only make a stock suspension ride way too stiff but are not enough to hold the car up.

If the car is too stiff now, And there is nothing wrong with it like seized arms, then the cut and turn may have been turned too far.

If you turn the torsion leaves enough for Class 11 off road racing, then it will ride terrible at low speed. If the beam is turned just enough to provide a taller ride height, that would give you stock ride quality with more clearance.

With a ball joint beam, the maximum wheel travel is around 6.5". A car with longer wheel travel can ride much softer and be no more likely to bottom out. My Baja Bug has 10.25" of wheel travel with its original arms and beam and custom fabricated shock mounts. That extra travel is one reason why link pin VW beams are so much more popular with offroaders than ball joint.

Wed May 18, 2022 8:49 am

Just out of curiosity Dusty, what would happen, if say, the OP removed the torsion leaves out of the top tube, and ran just one through bar leaving the lower torsion leaves intact ?? Would that then be too soft to drive ?? Would that cause damage from bottoming out ??

Wed May 18, 2022 1:47 pm

I had no idea coil overs for that application would be so expensive. I’ve purchased double adjustable coil-over shocks with springs for 2 of my road racing cars for less than $600 a pair. But I wouldn’t need all that adjustability either so I figured it would be even cheaper. The hard part would be figuring out the proper length and spring rate of the springs.

Wed May 18, 2022 1:53 pm

And I believe your assessment is correct, Dusty, that it was turned a bit too much. Thanks for the in-depth explanation.

Kim

Wed May 18, 2022 3:49 pm

Dark Earth wrote: Just out of curiosity Dusty, what would happen, if say, the OP removed the torsion leaves out of the top tube, and ran just one through bar leaving the lower torsion leaves intact ?? Would that then be too soft to drive ?? Would that cause damage from bottoming out ??

That’s an interesting option….🤔

Fri May 20, 2022 8:54 am

How would one go about mounting a coilover in that location and avoid interference with the control arm?

Fri May 20, 2022 5:20 pm

Hmmm idk if they would interfere or not but coil overs like Afco made for dirt track racing may would be a good test unit.

Sat May 21, 2022 7:43 am

Akimbeau wrote: Dark Earth wrote: Just out of curiosity Dusty, what would happen, if say, the OP removed the torsion leaves out of the top tube, and ran just one through bar leaving the lower torsion leaves intact ?? Would that then be too soft to drive ?? Would that cause damage from bottoming out ??

That’s an interesting option….🤔

You are confusing spring rate and preload.

The spring rate is the measure of pounds of load per distance of suspension travel. The weight of the car determines what this should be. For stock stuff that is about 75#/" over about 8". Jumping and going fast may need more. Remember that you want about half travel down and half up. What you have now is all up and no down and that is your roughness problem, not the spring rate. Removing half of your springs will simply make everything so soft you will be constantly "bottoming" and breaking things that do not spring back.

Preload is where you set the springs before you put weight on them. This does not change the spring rate, but alters the up travel to down travel ratio. Twisting the center mount changes the preload. You currently have too much preload for your use which eliminates the down travel and feels too stiff. It is not really too stiff, but it is harsh from no down travel. This will break things not intended to flex, including passengers.

Shock absorbers change the rate the springs react, they do not change the spring rate. Higher rate springs need higher rate shocks. Sometimes you can fit shocks made for heavier cars and change the rate, but usually you will need special limited production and more expensive ones. That's why they exist. Too soft shocks are usually going backwards.

Replacing the beam is the easiest and cheapest option.

Dennis

Sat May 21, 2022 9:11 pm

I agree with Dennis here.

Removing one set of leaves and replacing them with a through rod would not be a good thing to do.

The stock leaves, upper and lower together, are just fine for spring rate for the front of a mild Baja Bug. Apparently what happened here is that the beam was cut and rotated too far for a mild Bug. Some people think if its good for a racer, then it must be right for their mostly street Baja Bug. But that's not right.

Fri May 27, 2022 2:08 am

Thanks, for the in-depth explanation! Points all well taken. Do you think I could just cut the beams again and weld in the adjustable center mounts? I can find a way to get the adjustable mounts down here but a front beam might be hard to come by.