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Sun Mar 14, 2021 3:55 pm

I’m looking for suggestions and guidance on installing and setting up these 3x3’s. I’ve never done this before but I’ve read about it a lot.
A general note to keep in mind: I prefer to play it safe. For example, I don’t need to stretch my cv joints to their limits, I’d rather keep it safe and have a few less degrees of travel, and know I won’t destroy a cv joint. Same goes for the rest of the car. Reliability over performance....for now :twisted:

Some specs on what I already have or have bought:
3x3 from buggy barn fabrication
Type 4 cv joints and stub axles
Jamar disk brakes
Empi polyurethane trailing arm bushings
Stock spring plates that have been notched
Polyurethane spring plate bushings

This is in a Subaru powered Baja with a 002 trans. It has a full roll cage that I’m actively building. The rear cage hasent been built yet. The front is a 6” wider beam pushed 6” forwards with some extended trailing arms and coilovers. Gets about 14” travel in the front. The rear, as it sits gets about 12” travel, limited by the bump stop on upwards travel and the notch in the spring plate by downwards travel.

What I still need to buy:
Coilovers
Limit straps
Axles
Bump stops
And a whole plethora of other things that I’m hoping you all will help me with.

I think I get the general idea but there still remains a few questions, like:

Do I measure cv angle from the center of the cv cups (trans drive flange and stub axle) or the cv mounting face? I had 2 degrees difference between them.

Also, do I need the kind of spring plates with the heim joints, or will the stock spring plates work for now?
Also, same pic, where can I cut off the stock bump stop? Right behind the body mount? I’d like to have a king or fox air bump stop eventually

I’ve read from blind chicken racing ( http://blindchickenracing.com/How_to/CVJoints_Axles/cv_joints_101.htm ) that my type 4 cv joints will handle 22 degrees. If that’s the case, what should I limit that too? Is there a way to get more out of them?

Here’s a tricky question!
In this pic (though I may have measured it from the wrong place) it’s showing I have 18 degrees of cv angle at full drop. But because my arm cv joint isn’t inline (from a top view, looking straight down on the car) with the trans cv joint and is instead a few inches backwards (more cv angle), how do I figure the correct angle?

Thank you all for the help. I’m sure this will be a continuous thread as I’m sure there is a lot of information I’m mission.

Sun Mar 14, 2021 6:02 pm

You have some nice parts there. I don't know much, but you need to measure your angles at the center of the CV. That is about where your axle will ride, however it is not exact because the CV actually creates the pivot point for the axle on both ends. To get exact measurements you need to have your CV's and axles installed. You also DO need to factor in the angle to the back created by the 3" longer arms. The way to find that is to use an angle finder that looks like a knife. Set one side on the axle, parallel, and the other should touch the CV at a parallel. The tool should be a little forward on the axle at that point and at the greatest angle of the CV. I won't comment on what angle you feel comfortable using, but I will say strap it a little short, or use an adjustable clevis as the straps will stretch a little. Hope that helps a little

Sun Mar 14, 2021 8:37 pm

Hey that a good way to use an angle finder. I’ll have to give that a try. Thanks

Mon Mar 15, 2021 4:09 am

I think you are getting ahead of yourself. If you are going coilover, you will eliminate the spring plates and install the heim joint torsion eliminaters. The heim joints will not use the stock spring plate stops. Will need to make new stops. You also need some tires on it to set full compression so you don't bottom the engine cage.
Once the Suspension is cycling, you can start to figure shock mounts and a cage to support them. Shocks should be just foward of 90* off of the arms at full compression.
Fun times ahead, if it was easy everybody would do it.

Mon Mar 15, 2021 6:37 am

Ok I’ll get some of those torsion eliminators.
I have the wheels and tires already. How it sits right now its looking about 3” between ground and chassis when the rear is fully compressed. I haven’t actually measure that yet tho. Is 3” enough?
My main concern and objective right now is to figure out how much wheel travel I’m going to have so I can order the coilovers. Looks like I have a few more things to do/to buy to figure that out.

Mon Mar 15, 2021 7:33 am

Before you buy coilovers...measure for proper axle length, probably going to need 19.25 inch axles but measure at the shortest distance, more then likely when both cv flanges are in line. Then assemble cv's, grease them, install axle assembly, and raise and lower the arm till you find the limits of cv binding and tire interference. You'll get about 12 to 14 inches with 3x3. I run 14 inch coilovers but I could have gotten away with 12s. By the way measure both sides could possibly be different lengths. Dry my cv's where clicking at about 20 degrees, also look up race prepping cv's and at minimum run a chromoly cage

Mon Mar 15, 2021 7:33 am

thesatelliteguy wrote: Ok I’ll get some of those torsion eliminators.
I have the wheels and tires already. How it sits right now its looking about 3” between ground and chassis when the rear is fully compressed. I haven’t actually measure that yet tho. Is 3” enough?
My main concern and objective right now is to figure out how much wheel travel I’m going to have so I can order the coilovers. Looks like I have a few more things to do/to buy to figure that out.

I would think you would need more, off a good jump I would think your tires could compress momentarily more than 3 “ and you would be kissing rocks.

Mon Mar 15, 2021 10:05 am

Just installed 3x3's (see el lobo baja build thread) Keep in mind this is from another NOOB as well but Ive been working on this for months now....

First thing I did was eliminate the spring plate with this (they sell a lighter version too, honestly this one is probably overkill for my buggy)
https://www.pacificcustoms.com/ac501371-33.html
Then I bought the PC 3x3 kit. This is the one for the Bus trans. Obviously you dont need the Kit but you can see what comes with it.
https://www.pacificcustoms.com/ac598401.html
The bus trans kit includes 19.25 axles so thats likely what you'll need but youll want to measure. IMO dont even worry about the angle at this point. With the arms installed, make them level with the output drive flange of the transmission, measure the length from inner cup of stub axles to inner cup of drive flange. Thats going to be your axle length. Hopefully its just slightly under 19.25 so you can get the already made 19.25 axles and not custom cut ones ($$$). Measure both sides because they can be different. At this point angle doesnt even matter because this IS your axle length. The only way it can be changed is by moving the transmission forward or backward. Order the axles and install them and the CV's. Now you can determine full droop (max drooping of the trailing arms). Spin the wheel hub as you drop down the arm until you start to feel binding in the CV, then bring it up slightly until there's no more binding, that is your max droop. This is the Neanderthal way to do it without really caring what your axle angle is, you're going off feel. That will give you your max angle and you can measure it then as well to make sure you're at recommended spec. Then you can also determine your coilover length based off full droop by measuring where your lower shock mount will be up to where your upper shock mount will be. It worked out for me to get 14" coilovers (at full extension an eyelet to eyelet lenght of 35 inches I believe?) Somebody correct me if I'm wrong here but essentially what you want to do is bottom your arm out to where the CV's start binding as you turn the wheel hub, bring the arm up a 1/2" above where they're binding and thats where you want your shock to be bottoming out, then bring it up another 1/2" and thats where you want your limiting strap bottoming out. That gives you an inch seperation from blowing out your CV's. This is how I did it at least.

So basically how I did it.
1. Torsion Eliminators
2. Axle length by measuring when leveled
3. Install axles and CV's then drop down to determine full droop
4. Measure to get coilover size and shock mounting locations
5. Add limit straps that engage slightly above coilover max extention
6. Install bump stops after installing tires and determining where bump needs to be. I still need to do this, but this is the last step because really you want to do everything off of full droop.

Again, NOOB, so please keep that in mind if I need to be corrected on anything. This is just what I personally did.

Mon Mar 15, 2021 11:55 am

thesatelliteguy wrote: Ok I’ll get some of those torsion eliminators.
I have the wheels and tires already. How it sits right now its looking about 3” between ground and chassis when the rear is fully compressed. I haven’t actually measure that yet tho. Is 3” enough?
My main concern and objective right now is to figure out how much wheel travel I’m going to have so I can order the coilovers. Looks like I have a few more things to do/to buy to figure that out.

For this just put a 4x4 under the lowest part.
that is on the bump stops.

Mon Mar 15, 2021 6:44 pm

dirtkeeper wrote:

I would think you would need more, off a good jump I would think your tires could compress momentarily more than 3 “ and you would be kissing rocks.

Brother, that is a good thought, one I didn’t think of. That’s why I’m here at The Samba. Ok so we’ll stretch it to 5 inches.

Mon Mar 15, 2021 6:46 pm

Bad_chopper wrote: Before you buy coilovers...measure for proper axle length, probably going to need 19.25 inch axles but measure at the shortest distance, more then likely when both cv flanges are in line. Then assemble cv's, grease them, install axle assembly, and raise and lower the arm till you find the limits of cv binding and tire interference. You'll get about 12 to 14 inches with 3x3. I run 14 inch coilovers but I could have gotten away with 12s. By the way measure both sides could possibly be different lengths. Dry my cv's where clicking at about 20 degrees, also look up race prepping cv's and at minimum run a chromoly cage

You said cvs were clicking at 20*. What type of cvs?

Mon Mar 15, 2021 7:07 pm

Seems like I need torsion eliminators and axles

Buggy barn fabrication makes a nice set for $350 so I think I’ll get a set of those.
As far as axles go, I measured and got 20.25” between the cups (both sides were with in 1/16” of each other) when they were as close as possible. Take out the .25” suggested and I need 20” axles right? Which means they are custom length? Which means more cheddar$?

Damn.

Mon Mar 15, 2021 9:32 pm

thesatelliteguy wrote: Seems like I need torsion eliminators and axles

As far as axles go, I measured and got 20.25” between the cups (both sides were with in 1/16” of each other) when they were as close as possible. Take out the .25” suggested and I need 20” axles right? Which means they are custom length? Which means more cheddar$?

Damn.

For cost savings you'd probably best off to buy the 20.25 axles, trim them down a 1/4", and recreate the groove for the snap ring that goes on the end (Know anyone that owns a lathe?) its either that or I think Kartek custom cuts their axles but they are like a grand. :shock:

Are you sure your toe in is correct? If you are towed out at all in the rear, that means your stub axle are closer to your transmission. Once your spring plates are removed you can flex the arms a bit within the bushing to adjust and get the toe in/out correct, if you currently need to flex the arms out to bring the toe in, that will give you a bit more room for the axle and you might not need to cut the 20.25's at all.

Tue Mar 16, 2021 10:13 am

I set toe before I measured that 20.25”, but I may have messed that up. Should I set toe with the cv cups at the same height as transmissions? I would imagine toe would be the same as the trailing arm moves through its motions.

Tue Mar 16, 2021 10:28 am

Also now that I think about it, the axle nuts were not torqued, so that could pull the stub axle further out and change the axle length. Also the trailing arm pivot bolt isn’t torqued.

Tue Mar 16, 2021 12:01 pm

My cv's are GKN 930's now that they are greased and on the car I have them strapped at 25 degrees, but they are good up to 27 now. I was just meaning you would get a different limit dry vs greased.

Before you buy axles buy a piece of buy a 24 inch piece of pvc pipe that will fit your cv's and cut it down to the axle size you think you want to buy and test fit it. You can also go to Sway away and buy whatever axle length you need in .25 increments, Around 300 a set.

Sun Mar 21, 2021 4:21 pm

Ok I’m back.
Got the torsion eliminators put in temporarily. I set up some strings and did an alignment. The front of the wheel to rear of the wheel difference was within 1/16” at 16” out from axle center line.

I measured the axle length again and got 20.25” again :cry:
Good news is the left and right axle are within 1/16” of each other so I guess I did a good job centering the transaxle. That was like 8 years ago. Lol I don’t even remember doing that.
I searched around online and tried to find axles at 20” but wasn’t successful. 20.25”and 19.75” are the closest ones I’m finding. I think I’ll call sway away tomorrow and see if they can help me, like bad chopper suggested.
Still, I think I’ll try the pvc pipe inside some clean Cv joints just to make sure. But first Ill have to clean them. :(

Thu Mar 25, 2021 6:09 pm

just a thought, there is no reason a 19.75 will not work, i only run the retainging clip for the axle on the trans side cv. that will allow the axle to suck up into the spider a little. I went with the axle per that measure and subtract a 1/4 and i run out of usable droop long before the axle would come out of the cv. my axle is so long i am unable to get the cv axle assy out without removing my limit straps. so the half inch shouldnt be problem

Thu Mar 25, 2021 6:56 pm

Bad_chopper wrote: just a thought, there is no reason a 19.75 will not work, i only run the retainging clip for the axle on the trans side cv. that will allow the axle to suck up into the spider a little. I went with the axle per that measure and subtract a 1/4 and i run out of usable droop long before the axle would come out of the cv. my axle is so long i am unable to get the cv axle assy out without removing my limit straps. so the half inch shouldnt be problem

Im not sure he didnt mean 19.25, thats what Ive seen that's common. Or maybe he did find 19.75's. Either way, if he doesn't run a retaining clip on the stub axle side of the axle he could just buy the 20.25 and cut down one end a 1/4" and use that cut non retaining clip end on the stub axle end. Is not running a retaining clip pretty common?

Thu Mar 25, 2021 8:37 pm

James Bond is right. I meant 19.25”.

I am also curious to know if it is common to not run a retaining clip.