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Sat Dec 05, 2020 12:27 am

I've been looking thru as many forum posts as I can to find a definitive?...answer to this question. The engine for my Typ 1 was manufactured in Aug 62. And it's the OE engine to this VIN. It has 120K miles on it...and to the best of my knowledge, it has never been rebuilt. There's no issue w/the engine right now...runs pretty smooth and all day long and has in the year and half I've owned it. I use 87 fuel. Is there any reason I should add lead to the fuel tank? Is this a case of "leave well enough alone"? "If it aint broke, don't fix it"?

Thanks.

Sat Dec 05, 2020 5:04 am

The 59 I have has the original engine.
When I got it about 30 years ago I spoke with the guy at the garage who maintained it and he suggested using a lead additive and to keep the oil change schedule up.
I think the oil changes are the important part, but my understanding is that the lead in the gas acted as lube for the valve stems.
Now with 170k plus miles on the never been rebuilt engine, I have no argument about using lead additive.

Sat Dec 05, 2020 6:39 am

Lead in fuel does primary one thing.. antiknock agent. ..meaning..the resistance of a fuel to pre ignite .

The spark knock and extra heat from lead free fuel would deteriorate valve seats due to the soft material of the seats repeatedly welding/melting itself to the valves and then separating when opening.

Valve seat recession was/is mostly a cast iron valve seat issue not so much steel seat issue but under certain extreme circumstances can still occur with steel.
VWs have steel valve seats and.... :-k I think the valve seats for VWs started being hardened around 1966..

The main problem with VWs is the the steel seat in an aluminum head ..
No lead means higher heat.. aluminum and steel expand and contract at much different rates.. Spark knock and the higher heat would eventually drop valve seats as they separate. That can happen whether the seats are hardened or not. Corvair heads had the same problem...even more so.

IMO.. no real lead alternative additive needed in a VW engine .... but.. it will not hurt them either.
Higher octane fuel is often debated whether needed or not.. .. but proper timing and tuning is important.

Sat Dec 05, 2020 9:23 am

read this

http://www.todayifoundout.com/index.php/2011/11/why-lead-used-to-be-added-to-gasoline/

Sat Dec 05, 2020 10:38 am

EODTECH* wrote: I've been looking thru as many forum posts as I can to find a definitive?...answer to this question. The engine for my Typ 1 was manufactured in Aug 62. And it's the OE engine to this VIN. It has 120K miles on it...and to the best of my knowledge, it has never been rebuilt. There's no issue w/the engine right now...runs pretty smooth and all day long and has in the year and half I've owned it. I use 87 fuel. Is there any reason I should add lead to the fuel tank? Is this a case of "leave well enough alone"? "If it aint broke, don't fix it"?

Thanks.

It's illegal to use leaded fuel on a public HWY. Read this;
The requirements by the EPA, emission control mechanisms on cars, and the advent of other octane boosting alternatives spelled the end for widespread leaded gasoline use. Manufacturers soon found that cars could no longer handle such a fuel; public tolerance of the environmental and health hazards would not allow it; and it became cost prohibitive to continue producing it. On January 1, 1996, the Clean Air Act completely banned the use of leaded fuel for any on road vehicle. Should you be found to possess leaded gasoline in your car you can be subject to a $10,000 fine.

This hasn’t completely gotten rid of leaded gasoline. You are still permitted to use it for off road vehicles, aircraft, racing cars, farm equipment, and marine engines, in the United States.

Sat Dec 05, 2020 10:58 am

Lots of differing opinions on this topic.

I use the following in my ‘67 Beetle....

Fuel...90 octane non ethynol which won’t destroy the rubber lines like ethynol fuels. I also add 4 oz of Marvel Mystery Oil to every 10 gallons of fuel. The MMO helps to reduce carbon build up on the pistons, cylinders, valves, etc.

Oil...20% Marvel Mystery Oil mixed with 80% Brad Penn 20W50...changed every 3,000 miles. The MMO to keep internals clean and the BP oil is Zinc-rich which is important for our engines.

The engine has 107,000 miles on it and runs great! It uses only 1/2 liter of oil every 1,100 miles and fuel usage averages 28 mpg.

Sat Dec 05, 2020 3:27 pm

I have an ampco oiler, supposed to lube the top end. Fill it with MMO and off you go. Whether or not it makes a difference, I don't know, but it looks cool..lol

Sat Dec 05, 2020 4:12 pm

Many years ago I tried a lead repalcement additive. I found that it used to cause fouling (build-up) on the spark plugs. These days I just use 98RON fuel (not sure wht the US equivalent is) without the additive and have had no issues what so ever.

Sat Dec 05, 2020 6:53 pm

shano63 wrote: I have an ampco oiler, supposed to lube the top end. Fill it with MMO and off you go. Whether or not it makes a difference, I don't know, but it looks cool..lol

You can do the same thing by adding one pint of Marvel Mystery Oil, or Dextron 1-2-or 3 ATF to ten gallons of unleaded 87. Removes carbon and is a great top end lubricant. One pint per ten gallons will NOT cause the engine to smoke.

Sat Dec 05, 2020 7:33 pm

This is all automatic. Fill the jar and it lasts around 1000 miles or so. You can adjust the mist on the top of the bottle.

Sat Dec 05, 2020 7:36 pm

shano63 wrote: This is all automatic. Fill the jar and it lasts around 1000 miles or so. You can adjust the mist on the top of the bottle.

So is adding a pint to ten gallons of fuel.

Sat Dec 05, 2020 7:58 pm

Helfen wrote: shano63 wrote: This is all automatic. Fill the jar and it lasts around 1000 miles or so. You can adjust the mist on the top of the bottle.

So is adding a pint to ten gallons of fuel.
I like to add a slash of vintage Castrol "R" castor based racing oil to the gasoline.
I don't know if it does anything, but the exhaust sure smells great. :D

Sat Dec 05, 2020 9:50 pm

I concur .. Dexron 3 also works great in Gasoline. I use 2 cycle oil in my Diesel fuel as well.

Regarding an Oil Injector topic VOLKSWAGNUT wrote: You guys are going about lubrication the hard way. Just add the Marvel Mystery oil to your fuel tank. It really keeps all thing the fuel touches moving along nicely.
I was advised this years ago and have never looked back. I pulled my Pops Honda 1975 CB750 Four motorcycle out of a cellar. After a complete cleaning in and out, I began to ride it often. I was having an issue with an occasional flat spot and sticking carb needle. After pulling the inner carbs off for the 4th time, I finally decided to inquire a few of the more experienced motorcycle mechanics around my area. They claimed if its carburetored , just add the MM oil to the tank as instructed on the bottle. I have always been very skeptical of most cure in a bottle additives, (main bearings in a jug, or smoke be gone hahahha) but have found a few that worked well over the years. I had nothing really to loose. I was amazed how well it corrected my needle sticking problem, but what really made me start using it was I noticed how it also quieted my valve train down. Form that point on if its got a carb hung on it I always add Marvel or Dexron 3 ATF to the fuel. A little money well spent in my opinion.

Sun Dec 06, 2020 3:22 am

The consensus where I live seem to be that Beetles produced in 1965 or earlier should use lead additive. 1966 and newer does not need it. If I remember correctly the 1966 and newer cars have harder valve seats than the earlier cars.
I use additive in our 1963 1200. But not in the 1971 1302S. Both of them have stock engines and they always run on regular gas rated at 95 RON octane. I have tried running premium 98 RON but I noticed no difference. I have not experienced fouling of the plugs or anything else negative related to any of this. If I follow the service intervals, and drive them properly they are very easy going. Our old Mercedes is a little more picky and prefers both premium and lead additives.

Sun Dec 06, 2020 6:09 am

I’m a MMO believer.

In addition to keeping engine internals and fuel system clean, I’ve read on here and can attest that it also slightly swells seals like push rod seals. Before I began adding MMO to the oil, my #1 cylinder push rod seals leaked leaving a 10mm diameter drop of oil on the drip pan after every drive. Since adding MMO to the oil, the leak has been reduced to only an occasional small drop of oil on the pan...about 5 mm in diameter.

Sun Dec 06, 2020 11:27 am

T-F-E wrote: The consensus where I live seem to be that Beetles produced in 1965 or earlier should use lead additive. 1966 and newer does not need it. If I remember correctly the 1966 and newer cars have harder valve seats than the earlier cars.
I use additive in our 1963 1200. But not in the 1971 1302S. Both of them have stock engines and they always run on regular gas rated at 95 RON octane. I have tried running premium 98 RON but I noticed no difference. I have not experienced fouling of the plugs or anything else negative related to any of this. If I follow the service intervals, and drive them properly they are very easy going. Our old Mercedes is a little more picky and prefers both premium and lead additives.

I don't know of any difference in the valve seat material in any of the years. I worked as a Unit Repair mechanic for VW, all we did was rebuild engines and transaxles.
Some beetles ran on some of the most appalling fuels during WW2 and shortly thereafter and survived. Think of the Beetles that ran on wood vapors from a wood fire in the boot of the car. Amazing to be sure.

Sun Dec 06, 2020 11:31 am

VOLKSWAGNUT wrote: I concur .. Dexron 3 also works great in Gasoline. I use 2 cycle oil in my Diesel fuel as well.

Regarding an Oil Injector topic VOLKSWAGNUT wrote: You guys are going about lubrication the hard way. Just add the Marvel Mystery oil to your fuel tank. It really keeps all thing the fuel touches moving along nicely.
I was advised this years ago and have never looked back. I pulled my Pops Honda 1975 CB750 Four motorcycle out of a cellar. After a complete cleaning in and out, I began to ride it often. I was having an issue with an occasional flat spot and sticking carb needle. After pulling the inner carbs off for the 4th time, I finally decided to inquire a few of the more experienced motorcycle mechanics around my area. They claimed if its carburetored , just add the MM oil to the tank as instructed on the bottle. I have always been very skeptical of most cure in a bottle additives, (main bearings in a jug, or smoke be gone hahahha) but have found a few that worked well over the years. I had nothing really to loose. I was amazed how well it corrected my needle sticking problem, but what really made me start using it was I noticed how it also quieted my valve train down. Form that point on if its got a carb hung on it I always add Marvel or Dexron 3 ATF to the fuel. A little money well spent in my opinion.

Ken, I forgot to mention that the ATF also helps lubricate the accelerator pump diaphragm and fuel pump diaphragms.

Mon Dec 07, 2020 12:25 am

Thanks everyone! I think I'll start adding the MMO in every 40L fill up.

Mon Dec 07, 2020 7:00 am

T-F-E wrote: The consensus where I live seem to be that Beetles produced in 1965 or earlier should use lead additive. 1966 and newer does not need it. If I remember correctly the 1966 and newer cars have harder valve seats than the earlier cars..

Below is the relevant entry in Progressive Refinements.

(now, I think the replacement 40HP "F" round-boss, but short-stud heads also have the harder valve seats, so it depends on what heads you are running. For a time, eons ago I tried fuel additive on my 62 back when it had the early heads on it. But I gave up on it and later paid the price with valve seat erosion. Now I have the short-stud, square-boss heads which are fine for unleaded)

Mon Dec 07, 2020 9:21 am

glutamodo wrote: T-F-E wrote: The consensus where I live seem to be that Beetles produced in 1965 or earlier should use lead additive. 1966 and newer does not need it. If I remember correctly the 1966 and newer cars have harder valve seats than the earlier cars..

Below is the relevant entry in Progressive Refinements.

(now, I think the replacement 40HP "F" round-boss, but short-stud heads also have the harder valve seats, so it depends on what heads you are running. For a time, eons ago I tried fuel additive on my 62 back when it had the early heads on it. But I gave up on it and later paid the price with valve seat erosion. Now I have the short-stud, square-boss heads which are fine for unleaded)

Andy the valve seats have always been steel. Are you saying VW changed the steel alloy?
I have a 65 36hp fresh air with 7.2 compression ( factory), do they get a harder seat too?