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Tue Oct 01, 2019 4:42 pm

I'm perplexed. I was driving down the road on my way to get a wheel alignment and I started to hear a strange noise. After a bit more I lost control of the clutch - not engaging. I was also losing a lot of oil, so I was thinking the main seal went bad and leaked oil not the clutch. So I ended up trailering the car home and pulled the motor.

I pulled the motor and the fly wheel was loose. The gland nut was almost all the way out. The noise I heard was the fly wheel grinding on the tranny housing, so fine aluminum grit all over the place.

I pulled the flywheel off, cleaned up everything, put new main seal in since I had one, and started to put all back together. One thing I noticed is the dowel holes are slightly oblong. I don't think it is too bad, but they are slightly out of round. When I put the flywheel back on, it seem to not butt up to the crank snug. It wobbles like something is not flat. Now I can put the gland nut back on and crank it down tight, but I wanted to post this on here before I did that.

Why would that gland nut come loose? Should I put some lock tight on the threads? Any concerns?

This is a 68 1300cc motor in a 74 super, but I think the motor was built up to a 1500 or 1600 previously. I have another 1300 sitting around, but that flywheel is smaller (clutch opening) than the one I have on this current motor.

Bob

Tue Oct 01, 2019 5:02 pm

txasylum wrote: Why would that gland nut come loose?
1. Improper installation
2. Improper torque
3. Damaged flywheel or crankshaft holes/dowels

txasylum wrote: Should I put some lock tight on the threads?
I do. Blue Loctite, and torque to specifications. A torque wrench to 250 ft lbs capacity can be obtained free loaner from O'Reilly in USA.

txasylum wrote: This is a 68 1300cc motor in a 74 super
So you're using a 200mm pressure plate WITHOUT a center ring to match with your 1974 transmission, right???

Tue Oct 01, 2019 5:12 pm

I am using a SACHS KF22401 clutch kit on the motor. This is for a 71 and older motor. No center ring on pressure plate.

Cusser wrote: txasylum wrote: Why would that gland nut come loose?
1. Improper installation
2. Improper torque
3. Damaged flywheel or crankshaft holes/dowels

txasylum wrote: Should I put some lock tight on the threads?
I do. Blue Loctite, and torque to specifications. A torque wrench to 250 ft lbs capacity can be obtained free loaner from O'Reilly in USA.

txasylum wrote: This is a 68 1300cc motor in a 74 super
So you're using a 200mm pressure plate WITHOUT a center ring to match with your 1974 transmission, right???

Tue Oct 01, 2019 5:14 pm

I have red locktite. From what I read the red is stronger than the blue.

Cusser wrote: txasylum wrote: Why would that gland nut come loose?
1. Improper installation
2. Improper torque
3. Damaged flywheel or crankshaft holes/dowels

txasylum wrote: Should I put some lock tight on the threads?
I do. Blue Loctite, and torque to specifications. A torque wrench to 250 ft lbs capacity can be obtained free loaner from O'Reilly in USA.

txasylum wrote: This is a 68 1300cc motor in a 74 super
So you're using a 200mm pressure plate WITHOUT a center ring to match with your 1974 transmission, right???

Tue Oct 01, 2019 5:25 pm

Yes, red is “stronger”. I would not use red and risk damaging something trying to get it off. You just want something to help hold it in place but will yield to tools, blue will do that.

Green: just holds it in place
Blue: requires hand tools to break free
Red: requires heat/a lot of torque to break free

Tue Oct 01, 2019 5:28 pm

Thanks. I'm guessing the gland nut was not torqued down to specs. So I will put it back together. Hoping the slightly oblong dowel holes will be okay (I think they will be). Just hope that dang thing does not come off again. Not fun!

Thanks for your advice.
Bob

Relyt wrote: Yes, red is “stronger”. I would not use red and risk damaging something trying to get it off. You just want something to help hold it in place but will yield to tools, blue will do that.

Green: just holds it in place
Blue: requires hand tools to break free
Red: requires heat/a lot of torque to break free

Tue Oct 01, 2019 6:08 pm

Use a torque wrench to get it to spec, not an impact gun. Use either a torque-meister tool w/ a torque wrench or the old school method of a long cheater bar and calculate the torque using your body weight plus the length of the bar where you apply the force.

The gland nut should have a big wave washer under it also which helps keep it from coming loose.

Oblong dowel holes could potentially be a real problem, I guess you'll find out. Worst case you'll be replacing the crankshaft.

Wed Oct 02, 2019 2:43 am

Yes, the wavy washer is on the gland nut. I'm going to go to AutoZone and rent their torque wrench, which goes up to 250foot lbs. I will try to torque to 215 foot lbs. Just not sure how to get the flywheel to not turn as I am torquing yet. Will have to rig something up.

sjbartnik wrote: Use a torque wrench to get it to spec, not an impact gun. Use either a torque-meister tool w/ a torque wrench or the old school method of a long cheater bar and calculate the torque using your body weight plus the length of the bar where you apply the force.

The gland nut should have a big wave washer under it also which helps keep it from coming loose.

Oblong dowel holes could potentially be a real problem, I guess you'll find out. Worst case you'll be replacing the crankshaft.

Wed Oct 02, 2019 3:54 am

txasylum wrote: I will try to torque to 215 foot lbs. Just not sure how to get the flywheel to not turn as I am torquing yet. Will have to rig something up.

TaxAsylum - you've been a member since 2004? That's amazing. You must've meant to type 253 foot lbs because 215 is way too low. And here's what you can use to hold down the flywheel:

https://www2.cip1.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=ACC%2DC10%2D7025

Wed Oct 02, 2019 4:02 am

I would not rent a torque wrench. You have no idea want the last person did to the wrench and I bet the torque wrench is not calibrated on a regular basis.
If you want to overhaul engine you buy the tools to carry out the engine rebuild.

If not you risk problems with the engine as you have found.

Wed Oct 02, 2019 4:16 am

Autozone will let you use their specialty tools free. Not sure about Oz.

Wed Oct 02, 2019 4:30 am

I thought using a torque wrench at either end of the limits (either extreme low, or high) was unreliable? Wouldn't using the torque meister be a better solution?
Is drilling the flywheel and crank for 8 dowels an option for the original poster? I had issues decades ago with a loose flywheel, the shop that worked on the car had a jig of some kind and drilled 4 more holes. Never had another problem with it.

Wed Oct 02, 2019 4:53 am

txasylum wrote: I am using a SACHS KF22401 clutch kit on the motor. This is for a 71 and older motor. No center ring on pressure plate.

Cusser wrote: txasylum wrote: Why would that gland nut come loose?
1. Improper installation
2. Improper torque
3. Damaged flywheel or crankshaft holes/dowels

txasylum wrote: Should I put some lock tight on the threads?
I do. Blue Loctite, and torque to specifications. A torque wrench to 250 ft lbs capacity can be obtained free loaner from O'Reilly in USA.

txasylum wrote: This is a 68 1300cc motor in a 74 super
So you're using a 200mm pressure plate WITHOUT a center ring to match with your 1974 transmission, right???

Do you mean 1971 and newer clutch kit ?

Wed Oct 02, 2019 6:56 am

I'm not sure what you're working with here but you're aware that earlier cranks and flywheels that take a paper or metal gasket don't work well with later o-ring parts? An o-ring flywheel will not stay tight on an earlier crank.

Thu Oct 03, 2019 11:06 am

Yes, 71 and newer.

ricaroo wrote: txasylum wrote: I am using a SACHS KF22401 clutch kit on the motor. This is for a 71 and older motor. No center ring on pressure plate.

Cusser wrote: txasylum wrote: Why would that gland nut come loose?
1. Improper installation
2. Improper torque
3. Damaged flywheel or crankshaft holes/dowels

txasylum wrote: Should I put some lock tight on the threads?
I do. Blue Loctite, and torque to specifications. A torque wrench to 250 ft lbs capacity can be obtained free loaner from O'Reilly in USA.

txasylum wrote: This is a 68 1300cc motor in a 74 super
So you're using a 200mm pressure plate WITHOUT a center ring to match with your 1974 transmission, right???

Do you mean 1971 and newer clutch kit ?

Thu Oct 03, 2019 11:07 am

I am going to crack this motor open, but how I determine if I have an earlier crank? I have a 200mm flywheel bolted to the crank. Is it possible to bolt the newer flywheels to an older (earlier version) crank?

Just us buses wrote: I'm not sure what you're working with here but you're aware that earlier cranks and flywheels that take a paper or metal gasket don't work well with later o-ring parts? An o-ring flywheel will not stay tight on an earlier crank.

Thu Oct 03, 2019 1:22 pm

Okay, typically 6 volt cranks and flywheels take a paper or metal gasket on the end of the crank under the FW. These will have a step or shoulder in the mating area of the FW and a deeper area machined off the end of the crank. 12V ' s have a groove in the FW for an o-ring and a shallower end of crank area. Maybe someone can explain better or you can search the galleries. Some say a later FW can be used on an earlier crank with the proper gasket. The ONLY time I had a FW loosen I tried an earlier FW on a dual port engine.

Thu Oct 03, 2019 2:37 pm

I actually have another 1300 cc motor that is seized up. I can remove flywheel on both and compare the crank. Maybe I can see a difference.

Just us buses wrote: Okay, typically 6 volt cranks and flywheels take a paper or metal gasket on the end of the crank under the FW. These will have a step or shoulder in the mating area of the FW and a deeper area machined off the end of the crank. 12V ' s have a groove in the FW for an o-ring and a shallower end of crank area. Maybe someone can explain better or you can search the galleries. Some say a later FW can be used on an earlier crank with the proper gasket. The ONLY time I had a FW loosen I tried an earlier FW on a dual port engine.

Thu Oct 03, 2019 2:52 pm

I actually have another 1300 cc motor that is seized up and it has the smaller flywheel (original flywheel). I took it off and looked at the crankshaft. I don't see any difference between that one and the one I am working on. (Again, I have two 1300 block motors. One is all original, the other has been built up and has the 200mm flywheel). So the older flywheel will fit on both cranks, just like the 200mm flywheel will fit on both crankshafts on both motors.

How can I determine what Crankshaft I have in the motor I am rebuilding?

Bob

Just us buses wrote: Okay, typically 6 volt cranks and flywheels take a paper or metal gasket on the end of the crank under the FW. These will have a step or shoulder in the mating area of the FW and a deeper area machined off the end of the crank. 12V ' s have a groove in the FW for an o-ring and a shallower end of crank area. Maybe someone can explain better or you can search the galleries. Some say a later FW can be used on an earlier crank with the proper gasket. The ONLY time I had a FW loosen I tried an earlier FW on a dual port engine. [/quote]

Thu Oct 03, 2019 3:40 pm

Glutamodo posted a thread that covers this with nice pics:
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=692467

Here’s a key point from his post which covers which flywheel works with which crank: