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Mon Sep 02, 2019 4:33 pm

Hello everybody, I would like to make this thread to inform other vw enthusiasts .
I purchased an exhaust for a type 4 in a beetle from GWD in Germany.
He advertised a series of exhausts named "Vintage program"
As somebody used to websites like vw heritage I thought that since no known brand is advertised the exhausts would be built or designed at least by GWD.
I chose an exhaust advertised up to 160HP.
He asked me what HP my engine would produce (I answered 130-140)
Guess what brand exhaust I received. VINTAGE SPEED.
I though that the exhaust would be ok since I paid a reputable seller so I used it.
6 months later I started hearing a bit more than what I was used to. The exhaust had started cracking on the welds(as it often happens with VS exhausts)
I immediately emailed both GWD and VS
GWD was extremely rude and immediately started producing excuses for the exhaust to crack( He blamed the mixtures which were ofcourse ok ) and refused to to do anything .
VS on the other hand started very kind and helpful (They told me that the exhaust is up to 125HP and not 140 as gwd claimed )
And then a huge pile of lies started falling on me.
GWD claimed that VS builds a special 140HP exhaust just for him.
VS started using the same excuses as GWD.

And guess who is stuck with a cracked exhaust that is supposed to have 5years warranty .

Mon Sep 02, 2019 5:46 pm

Buyer and seller feedback?

Mon Sep 02, 2019 5:52 pm

Aircooled (dot net) shows quite a few Vintage Speed mufflers. Some are rated up to 125hp, and some are rated up to 150hp. Maybe yours is a match with one of these? If so, which HP rating is yours?
http://vwparts.aircooled.net/VW-Exhaust-Muffler-s/...ge%20Speed

Mon Sep 02, 2019 6:02 pm

A muffler with flat end caps is made wrong. It's going to crack.
You'll just have to fix it yourself.

The vintage speed "superflow" is a good design, but it seems to be luck.
They don't seem to know what they are doing and are not interested in changing that. it's not just language barrier. WELL KNOWN to anybody with a clue

Mon Sep 02, 2019 11:47 pm

Vintage speed systems are very restrictive, even the super flow. I fitted 1 to a 2007cc that was in bay bus and you could feel the drop in power straight away. The customer took it to a rolling road and it was down 11 hp compared to the turbo Thomas system that was on there before, i removed and refitted the turbo Thomas system.

Don’t rate them at all. overpriced, restrictive and sound awful

Tue Sep 03, 2019 12:41 am

You can't really put a "HP rating" on a full exhaust system because that's just not how it works.
Some combinations rely heavily on the header and muffler being tuned correctly to MAKE it work, which can be touchy.

On the other end of the scale you have engines that don't seem to care what you put on as long as it's somewhere near the right size.

you certainly could build a 130hp engine that uses that muffler, but that does not mean it is right for every 130hp engine at all.

Tue Sep 03, 2019 1:35 am

modok wrote: You can't really put a "HP rating" on a full exhaust system because that's just not how it works.
Some combinations rely heavily on the header and muffler being tuned correctly to MAKE it work, which can be touchy.

On the other end of the scale you have engines that don't seem to care what you put on as long as it's somewhere near the right size.

you certainly could build a 130hp engine that uses that muffler, but that does not mean it is right for every 130hp engine at all.
X2
If an engine is 11 hp down with a VS muffler compared to a TT (or something else) the combo is wrong. And it is not menthioned which TT system it is comapred with. The main reason is typically too much cam duration. That I have seen several times.

The performance listings of the varius VS systems are not that far off, but if the combo is all wrong, they wohnt support it. Next, the "equal length" Super sport systems are actually not bad for engine with peak power below approx 5500 rpm. which is many of the engines out there. The muffler is easily superceeded in peak power by a 4 into 1 header/muffler set up, BUT the shorty design, which I actually redeveloped for type 1 together with Turbo Thomas before the VS even came out and which is also used by Ahnendorp (with a twist, his is actually really good and compact) can and is beneficial if you want to improve torque below 3000 rpm. This type of muffler also work their best with cam durations below approx 245 degrees @ 0,050"
The VS "Merge competition" systems are just plain stupid IMHO. The idea with 4-2-1 is good, and can also work very well, IF the cylinders are paired correct. The way the VS is laid out the hp doesnt suffer so bad, but the torque is down by at least 10%, often more. Making a functional 4-2-1 header for type 1 is not that easy since the primaries will have to be too long to even reach each other unless you are ready to sacrifice almost all your ground clearance.
The problem with cracked mufflers is well known. The general reason is simply that the material is too thin. Aisi304 SS is simply not resistant enough for vibration and heat with the wall thickness. That is also why the Ahnendorp & the TT are almost twice as thick material, and therefore also significantly heavier.

With the OP´s issue. Well, sounds like Gerd had one on the shelf that he wanted to get rid of. Using the smaller version on a significantly more powerfull engine (assuming a large displacement type 4) will increase back pressure and temperature in the muffler, which makes it even more prone to crack. Sooo.

Tue Sep 03, 2019 1:36 am

I had one once. Or rather I had three in quick succession...
3,000 miles and something was rattling around loose inside. Supplier replaced it.
2,000 miles and again something loose inside. Supplier replaced it again.
3rd one I sold new in the box, I quite liked it but I'm not up for replacing the exhaust every few thousand miles. Never again.

Tue Sep 03, 2019 6:57 am

The 2007 wasn’t a fire breathing screamer, only a bus cruising motor which had 40’s, ported stock heads and an Engle W110 which is only 247 @ .50 if memory serves. The Turbo Thomas in question is very similar to a CSP python, only reason the customer purchased it was to try and gain some ground clearance and the VS dealer here in the UK sold it to him as being the right system for the engine, he didn’t like the tinny noise and eve drop in power so sacked it off very quickly. They were a very hot product here 5-6 yrs ago but it seems they are being ditched by many for different systems. I’ve heard a lot of the issues are do to with the baffles and the welds breaking.

Tue Sep 03, 2019 7:00 am

modok wrote: You can't really put a "HP rating" on a full exhaust system because that's just not how it works.
Some combinations rely heavily on the header and muffler being tuned correctly to MAKE it work, which can be touchy.

On the other end of the scale you have engines that don't seem to care what you put on as long as it's somewhere near the right size.

you certainly could build a 130hp engine that uses that muffler, but that does not mean it is right for every 130hp engine at all.

They have been crap from the beginning for anything other than very stock HP
Some on here swear by them.....stainless (thin) welds (thin) usually equal disaster....just a matter of time. Lets see, VW has been making cars with steel exhausts for 75 years and yet stainless is "new"

Tue Sep 03, 2019 7:24 am

modok wrote: You can't really put a "HP rating" on a full exhaust system because that's just not how it works.
Some combinations rely heavily on the header and muffler being tuned correctly to MAKE it work, which can be touchy.

On the other end of the scale you have engines that don't seem to care what you put on as long as it's somewhere near the right size.

you certainly could build a 130hp engine that uses that muffler, but that does not mean it is right for every 130hp engine at all.

Exactly , it has to do with the rpms that these 130hp need , it has to do with the displacement . Selling an exhaust for specified hp is like buying shoes without knowing anything but their size .

Tue Sep 03, 2019 7:33 am

Alstrup wrote: modok wrote: You can't really put a "HP rating" on a full exhaust system because that's just not how it works.
Some combinations rely heavily on the header and muffler being tuned correctly to MAKE it work, which can be touchy.

On the other end of the scale you have engines that don't seem to care what you put on as long as it's somewhere near the right size.

you certainly could build a 130hp engine that uses that muffler, but that does not mean it is right for every 130hp engine at all.
X2
If an engine is 11 hp down with a VS muffler compared to a TT (or something else) the combo is wrong. And it is not menthioned which TT system it is comapred with. The main reason is typically too much cam duration. That I have seen several times.

The performance listings of the varius VS systems are not that far off, but if the combo is all wrong, they wohnt support it. Next, the "equal length" Super sport systems are actually not bad for engine with peak power below approx 5500 rpm. which is many of the engines out there. The muffler is easily superceeded in peak power by a 4 into 1 header/muffler set up, BUT the shorty design, which I actually redeveloped for type 1 together with Turbo Thomas before the VS even came out and which is also used by Ahnendorp (with a twist, his is actually really good and compact) can and is beneficial if you want to improve torque below 3000 rpm. This type of muffler also work their best with cam durations below approx 245 degrees @ 0,050"
The VS "Merge competition" systems are just plain stupid IMHO. The idea with 4-2-1 is good, and can also work very well, IF the cylinders are paired correct. The way the VS is laid out the hp doesnt suffer so bad, but the torque is down by at least 10%, often more. Making a functional 4-2-1 header for type 1 is not that easy since the primaries will have to be too long to even reach each other unless you are ready to sacrifice almost all your ground clearance.
The problem with cracked mufflers is well known. The general reason is simply that the material is too thin. Aisi304 SS is simply not resistant enough for vibration and heat with the wall thickness. That is also why the Ahnendorp & the TT are almost twice as thick material, and therefore also significantly heavier.

With the OP´s issue. Well, sounds like Gerd had one on the shelf that he wanted to get rid of. Using the smaller version on a significantly more powerfull engine (assuming a large displacement type 4) will increase back pressure and temperature in the muffler, which makes it even more prone to crack. Sooo.

The engine is a 2 later type 4, but I still find hard to believe that VS builds a special 140hp exhaust for gwd . They have a 125 rated one and a 160 rated one. Its crazy to think they will make one in the middle just to avoid backfires .
The problem is that none of them admits the exhaust is crap and I get no refund. The 5 year warranty is most likely some sort of joke .

Tue Sep 03, 2019 7:35 am

wheel607 wrote: modok wrote: You can't really put a "HP rating" on a full exhaust system because that's just not how it works.
Some combinations rely heavily on the header and muffler being tuned correctly to MAKE it work, which can be touchy.

On the other end of the scale you have engines that don't seem to care what you put on as long as it's somewhere near the right size.

you certainly could build a 130hp engine that uses that muffler, but that does not mean it is right for every 130hp engine at all.

They have been crap from the beginning for anything other than very stock HP
Some on here swear by them.....stainless (thin) welds (thin) usually equal disaster....just a matter of time. Lets see, VW has been making cars with steel exhausts for 75 years and yet stainless is "new"

Exactly, I am sure that if you put a stock vw exhaust on a 200hp engine , it will turn the 200 hp to 170 or so, but it will surely not crack... The problem is they don't admit its crap and I get no replacement. 5 year warranty my neck

Tue Sep 03, 2019 7:35 am

k@rlos wrote: The 2007 wasn’t a fire breathing screamer, only a bus cruising motor which had 40’s, ported stock heads and an Engle W110 which is only 247 @ .50 if memory serves. The Turbo Thomas in question is very similar to a CSP python, only reason the customer purchased it was to try and gain some ground clearance and the VS dealer here in the UK sold it to him as being the right system for the engine, he didn’t like the tinny noise and eve drop in power so sacked it off very quickly. They were a very hot product here 5-6 yrs ago but it seems they are being ditched by many for different systems. I’ve heard a lot of the issues are do to with the baffles and the welds breaking.

Exactly they crack right on the welds . And no replacement. 5 year warranty my neck

Tue Sep 03, 2019 6:04 pm

That really sucks that you are getting that sort of customer service. I can't comment on other models, but from a product perspective my 44 mm "Merged Competition" exhaust from them has been great. I was skeptical of the two into one side merge, but the x pipe in the back seems to work well. It has run better than the sidewinder that I had before. I think the full merged ones will flow better than some of the others as this one has equal lengths. Not sure of the others, but they don't look exactly equal.

Tue Sep 03, 2019 7:10 pm

Vw1600dellortoGR wrote: Hello everybody, I would like to make this thread to inform other vw enthusiasts .
I purchased an exhaust for a type 4 in a beetle from GWD in Germany.
He advertised a series of exhausts named "Vintage program"
As somebody used to websites like vw heritage I thought that since no known brand is advertised the exhausts would be built or designed at least by GWD.
I chose an exhaust advertised up to 160HP.
He asked me what HP my engine would produce (I answered 130-140)
Guess what brand exhaust I received. VINTAGE SPEED.
I though that the exhaust would be ok since I paid a reputable seller so I used it.
6 months later I started hearing a bit more than what I was used to. The exhaust had started cracking on the welds(as it often happens with VS exhausts)
I immediately emailed both GWD and VS
GWD was extremely rude and immediately started producing excuses for the exhaust to crack( He blamed the mixtures which were ofcourse ok ) and refused to to do anything .
VS on the other hand started very kind and helpful (They told me that the exhaust is up to 125HP and not 140 as gwd claimed )
And then a huge pile of lies started falling on me.
GWD claimed that VS builds a special 140HP exhaust just for him.
VS started using the same excuses as GWD.

And guess who is stuck with a cracked exhaust that is supposed to have 5years warranty .

Did you post photos/video of the exhaust on facebook and youtube? If not, you should.

Wed Sep 04, 2019 11:24 am

Vw1600dellortoGR wrote:
The engine is a 2 later type 4, but I still find hard to believe that VS builds a special 140hp exhaust for gwd . They have a 125 rated one and a 160 rated one. Its crazy to think they will make one in the middle just to avoid backfires .
They don´t they are just pulling your leg
Vw1600dellortoGR wrote:
The problem is that none of them admits the exhaust is crap and I get no refund. The 5 year warranty is most likely some sort of joke .
If you have the receipt and you were/are within the warranty period, and you have read what they write in small letters, and you are still in favour, go for it. Its time.
gringoloco2000 wrote: . I can't comment on other models, but from a product perspective my 44 mm "Merged Competition" exhaust from them has been great. I was skeptical of the two into one side merge, but the x pipe in the back seems to work well. It has run better than the sidewinder that I had before. I think the full merged ones will flow better than some of the others as this one has equal lengths. Not sure of the others, but they don't look exactly equal.

REALLY!!!??? Well, there is a first time for everything
k@rlos wrote: The 2007 wasn’t a fire breathing screamer, only a bus cruising motor which had 40’s, ported stock heads and an Engle W110 which is only 247 @ .50 if memory serves. The Turbo Thomas in question is very similar to a CSP python, only reason the customer purchased it was to try and gain some ground clearance and the VS dealer here in the UK sold it to him as being the right system for the engine, he didn’t like the tinny noise and eve drop in power so sacked it off very quickly. They were a very hot product here 5-6 yrs ago but it seems they are being ditched by many for different systems. I’ve heard a lot of the issues are do to with the baffles and the welds breaking.
That´s almost exactly what I thought. You have basicly tried to compare apples to oranges. NATURALLY a decent mergeheader will outperform a non merged very un equal length muffler on hp. I have witnessed that several times here too. It is not the restriction in the muffler that makes the difference. Its the fact that neither the short, nor the long primaries fit what the engine wants for max hp. Now, if you looked at torque below 3000 rpm you would most likely notice that the difference between the two is lesser.
This 1776 runs a Web 218/119 cam, ported stock heads, dual 36 Dells etc etc, plus a couple of little tricks, and a regular VS muffler. Makes quite nice power IMHO.
The slight dip in the curve just below 3000 rpm is because I goofed up and went the wrong way with an air/main combination. Got correceted later when I came to my senses :roll:

Wed Sep 04, 2019 12:16 pm

I’ve owned 2 VS sport exhausts. The first one I bought use with ~14k on it and out another ~20k on it with no issues. That one was mounted to a 2175 with a w110 and 8.8:1 compression. That bus was sold and I bought a new one for the 2275 I had built for the ‘71 bus. The new one has different end caps then the first on I had and they seem nicer. I am very happy with both systems and did not see a HP or MPG decrease when I went from a merged header to the VS muffler. I feel the VS offers nice ground clearance, I like how the pipe runs tight to the bumper and personally I like the sound. My wife has even commented several times how much quieter it is compared to the merged I was running.

This is a common thread on this site. Some people love them, others hate them. It’s the same with everything in life, to each their own.

Wed Sep 04, 2019 3:31 pm

Alstrup wrote: Vw1600dellortoGR wrote:
The engine is a 2 later type 4, but I still find hard to believe that VS builds a special 140hp exhaust for gwd . They have a 125 rated one and a 160 rated one. Its crazy to think they will make one in the middle just to avoid backfires .
They don´t they are just pulling your leg
Vw1600dellortoGR wrote:
The problem is that none of them admits the exhaust is crap and I get no refund. The 5 year warranty is most likely some sort of joke .
If you have the receipt and you were/are within the warranty period, and you have read what they write in small letters, and you are still in favour, go for it. Its time.
gringoloco2000 wrote: . I can't comment on other models, but from a product perspective my 44 mm "Merged Competition" exhaust from them has been great. I was skeptical of the two into one side merge, but the x pipe in the back seems to work well. It has run better than the sidewinder that I had before. I think the full merged ones will flow better than some of the others as this one has equal lengths. Not sure of the others, but they don't look exactly
equal.

REALLY!!!??? Well, there is a first time for everything
k@rlos wrote: The 2007 wasn’t a fire breathing screamer, only a bus cruising motor which had 40’s, ported stock heads and an Engle W110 which is only 247 @ .50 if memory serves. The Turbo Thomas in question is very similar to a CSP python, only reason the customer purchased it was to try and gain some ground clearance and the VS dealer here in the UK sold it to him as being the right system for the engine, he didn’t like the tinny noise and eve drop in power so sacked it off very quickly. They were a very hot product here 5-6 yrs ago but it seems they are being ditched by many for different systems. I’ve heard a lot of the issues are do to with the baffles and the welds breaking.

That´s almost exactly what I thought. You have basicly tried to compare apples to oranges. NATURALLY a decent mergeheader will outperform a non merged very un equal length muffler on hp. I have witnessed that several times here too. It is not the restriction in the muffler that makes the difference. Its the fact that neither the short, nor the long primaries fit what the engine wants for max hp. Now, if you looked at torque below 3000 rpm you would most likely notice that the difference between the two is lesser.
This 1776 runs a Web 218/119 cam, ported stock heads, dual 36 Dells etc etc, plus a couple of little tricks, and a regular VS muffler. Makes quite nice power IMHO.
The slight dip in the curve just below 3000 rpm is because I goofed up and went the wrong way with an air/main combination. Got correceted later when I came to my senses :roll:

What should I do ? They refuse to replace it .

Wed Sep 04, 2019 4:04 pm

Im guessing their HP ratings are in some way an estimate of a general range/performance setup that the exhaust should fit. Not that is is supposed to be a certain HP with this exhaust.

If it is cracked on the ends, weld it up.