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Fri May 31, 2019 1:53 pm

Talking for max performance it Hi Pro ignition.

Not Iridium, Not Multi Spark, no resistor.

Solid copper core standard type plug. Way to go.

I have the Jacobs ignition system use .045 gap

Multi cannot gap and block spark

Resistor suppresses spark - but no radio noise.

I feel the difference with the stock non resistor plugs vs multi

Fri May 31, 2019 3:28 pm

nextgen wrote: Talking for max performance it Hi Pro ignition.

Not Iridium, Not Multi Spark, no resistor.

Solid copper core standard type plug. Way to go.

I have the Jacobs ignition system use .045 gap

Multi cannot gap and block spark

Resistor suppresses spark - but no radio noise.

I feel the difference with the stock non resistor plugs vs multi

I agree on the copper nickel. In fact there are no spark quality differences netween any of the plug metals .....only longevity differences.....(except for the silver electrode plugs.....but even then only when using huge coils or magnetos)

For a type 4....especially with high compression....the best plugs I have found are either the NGK BP6ET triple electrodes....or the Bosch W7DTC triple electrodes.

Are those that what you mean by "multi"?
No...they dont block anything and probably have less chance of that with multiple electrodes. Indexing is less of an issue with the triples.....and yes....you can gap them bery easily.....but you have to be PRECISE. They must be all exactly the same or the smallest gap with be the one that always sparks. They all spark....but never more than one at a time.

You simply have to have the proper gapping tool.

http://www.autoatlanta.com/Porsche-Spark-Plug-Gap-Gauge-Parts-PN-R0986600000.html

If you cant use that link you can get one at Auto zone for about $5 part # 0986600000
Ray

Fri May 31, 2019 7:22 pm

Hi Ray,
Thanks for replying. My story, just got my carbs rebuilt and did timing. Next is fuel mixture and sync.

I am running a Jacobs Bugpak Ignition for years and when I spoke to their Tech support and also in the manual, it a chart was shown as to what gap to use. They recommended B5ES NKG with a .045 gap. They said no multi spark plugs, it blocks the spark, make a smaller spark and you can't gap them??

Well I put in a set of BP6ET and they seem to have less power. Can I open the gap to a .045. Going to be tricky I would think.. How would I know If I got them all the same, if it is at all possible at the wide a gap.

I know your cars are FI. This is duel 36 Dells.

So what do you think?

Sat Jun 01, 2019 6:27 am

The Jacobs is an excellent coil.

However it sounds like someone had personal issue with this plug type.

Just think about it. Blocking what?

Are they speaking of plug electrode index? There is actually less of a potential index issue with the triple electrode plug.

Yes you can open the gap up to whatever you want. Gap wise they are no different than any other plug. They just use a different tool and gap off of the side of the electrode.

As far as getting to gaps accurate.....just take your time and use the proper tool. Its just like a feeler gauge. The issue is NOT getting the gaps exactly .045". The issue is vetting them all the same on each plug.

These are pin gauges. Just like feeler gauges. Set them so that the drag on the pin gauge is the same on each electrode. Its no trickier than gapping any other plug. You are supposed to be precise on all of them.

There is a hook shaped lever for this type of plug on the Bosch gapping tool. It works very well to easily bend each electrode OUTWARD away from the center electrode. Then...and this is Bosch's actual directions for these plugs...and it works very well....use a small metal object like a socket (19mm works well) ....to very lightly tap the side of the electrode...to move it inward while checking the gap with the pin gauge. Roll the correct pin size from one side of the electrode to the other.....do not just stick it in from the top. Check and repeat until each gap has the same force. Just like setting valves. Same drag.

I use a piece of 1" brass rod about 4" long. It has a lot of mass...and takes only very light taps to make fine adjustments.

This insures that the side electrode is also PARALLEL to the center electrode. If you use the proper tool....that little hook lever on the Bosch tool....to move the electrode....it will never get out of parallel.

If you need to see this method....gjve me a day or two and I will put together a how to with lictures.

Ray

Sat Jun 01, 2019 6:53 am

Yes it was the indexing I was worried about and the gap.

So the indexing is not a problem

Ok so here is my thoughts, both of my plugs are good.

Now I know I can gap the electrodes...

But you mentioned if I do change the gap I have to be very accurate so only one electrode will be fired.

I think I feel a bit more relaxed if I just us the standard B5ES. Due to easier gaping.

Basically the same plugs - any pros or cons on that.

Sat Jun 01, 2019 1:25 pm

Its Just not that hard. Getting the same drag feel on all three electrodes....is no different than adjusting valves....snd you get those to within .001" right?

Getting them to about .001" accuracy is all thats required. All three electrodes will have some small impedance difference between them due to compression pressure and density of mixture and temperature right at the electrode gap...at any given millisecond.

This is why these plugs work so well. At any given instant....one electrode will have lower ionization requirement than the other two.....and its rarely tbe same one twice in a row.....which is why they spark and wear so evenly.

Having them within a +/- of .001" to each other is not enough variation to be a big deal. It wint change the equation any more than pressure and heat expansion does......however being about .003" or more off on one electrode....say....larger.....and that electrode will never spark until the other two wear to about the same.

Ray

Sat Jun 01, 2019 1:30 pm

Just thought about this, the BP6E7 is most likely gapped at ,028 .

I am going to drive it that way for a while to get the feel of it. starts, runs and idles good. Very happy .

Then put the the single electrode at .045 as Jacobs remends and see if I feel a difference.

Sat Jun 01, 2019 5:15 pm

Also bear in mind .....if you are increasing spark gap to take advantage of the fact that you now have a coil with better voltage output....longer duration, more reliable sparks with higher compression engines.....just getting a better spark is rarely something you feel without some slight fuel and timing tuning to take advantage of the changes.

Unless.....what you put in is way under ignited. Ray

Sat Jun 01, 2019 5:57 pm

Gapping multi electrode plugs isn't hard with the right tools, here's an example that pushes it with micrometer precision (instead of bashing it with something and possibly going too far), it's for 18mm plugs so you'd have to machine an adapter, or just build your own version.

https://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/topages/sparkPlugGap.php?clickkey=131046

Or the super simple cheapskate version: https://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/topages/1201682.php?clickkey=131046

Sat Jun 01, 2019 6:22 pm

Budaddy thanks and Ray you got my attention you obviously love those plugs and now I understand it is a better plug seeing there is no index problems and I can gap them. I bought them from John at aircooled.net and he highly recommend them and he has never given bad advise. Sooooooooooo.......

I have a digital vernier and fielder gauges. I believe I can get them with in .001.

I Will be away for a while when i do I will get back to you when pull the plug and gap then .

Thanks again.

Sat Jun 01, 2019 10:34 pm

busdaddy wrote: Gapping multi electrode plugs isn't hard with the right tools, here's an example that pushes it with micrometer precision (instead of bashing it with something and possibly going too far), it's for 18mm plugs so you'd have to machine an adapter, or just build your own version.

https://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/topages/sparkPlugGap.php?clickkey=131046

Or the super simple cheapskate version: https://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/topages/1201682.php?clickkey=131046

I have used both of those tools. They are both actually pretty poor....because the threads are waaaay too coarse. You WILL end up doing it 3 times. The pin measuring gauge in the picture is actually pretty good but no more accurate than the Bosch set.

And.....tapping a small weight...is actually the method listed in the Bosch technical data sheet and does no harm to the electrode. It does not require "bashing" anything. Just a VERY light tap. :wink:

Ray

Sun Jun 02, 2019 9:34 am

Ray as mentioned I will be on vacation for the next two weeks . I gave my bug some Valium, so it will have a nice sleep, ha.

Car is ready for inspection and the horn is not working, good news my DVM says I have voltage, so it is the horn and that will be a bolt up.

Will fill you on when I get back on the plugs. Gapping multi electrodes is something new to me but after reading all the reviews on Youtube, the gapping will just make it better for my use

Thank again.

Sun Jun 02, 2019 11:11 am

nextgen wrote: Ray as mentioned I will be on vacation for the next two weeks . I gave my bug some Valium, so it will have a nice sleep, ha.

Car is ready for inspection and the horn is not working, good news my DVM says I have voltage, so it is the horn and that will be a bolt up.

Will fill you on when I get back on the plugs. Gapping multi electrodes is something new to me but after reading all the reviews on Youtube, the gapping will just make it better for my use

Thank again.

Its not hard....but can be a little tedious if you are pressed for time.

Like all plugs they come pre-gapped. Its good practice to chdck them when new. And....wear wise.....you should not need to re-gap them ....typically....before about 30-40k miles. That mileage interval really depends on how sensitive your tuning is to a change in gap.

If for instance you gap them at 0.045"....and your coil voltage has issues keeping a good spark with high compression when they get to say......050".....then you might want to gap them.

The Bosch tech sheets say that SINGLE electrode pkugs should be gapped to within .004" of spec....and to each other.
I can tell you that with modern integrated ignition and injection systems.....they need to be within half that if you want the car to idle smoothly....because many use ion sensing through the plug. The gap is a resistance factor.

On triple electrodes....you have a little of the same issue. The gap with the least resistance at any time will ionize easier and spark first. As I noted you have "natural" factors that affect resistance at each electrode.....compression level, fuel air mixture between the electrodes swirl and electrode temperature. Adding singificant gap variation....unnaturally changes that equation.

The other question is whether you can even benefit from triple plugs. They seem to have the best benefits on high compression lean burning engines. They were stock plugs on many motorcycles, digifant cars and some CIS engines.

And....these plugs are....in my experience....voltage hogs. The stock basic 18kv coil...has a hard time with them. Virtuslly all of the engine types I just listed above.....have either a magneto (tbe mororcycles).....or used a Hall effect Bosch system with a 45-55kv coil.

I find tbe triples work very well with a Pertronix 42kv blaster coil even with points.

I find it hilarious the thousands of threads i have found on line in the Vortex BMW forums etc....of people who "try" the triple plugs and report back...."these made my car run worse"....they are a hoax"..... :roll: ....snd virtually a of these threads you find quotes like...cant be gapped....does not require gapping etc.....100% incorrect.

And.....virtually,all of these people....did not check whether they went from single electrode with basic coil.....to triple with that same anemic coil.....or whether the gap was the same between triple and single etc.

Ray

Fri Jun 14, 2019 8:37 pm

OK Ray back from Barcelona Spain for two weeks. At 10 buck a gallon for gas no wonder there are more motorcycles and motor scooters then cars.

Also a big surprise is the electric one person scooters, thousand of those and they are doing a like 20 mph. Crazy.

OK Ray my findings on the triple gap plugs. When I guess the BP6E7 is most likely gapped at ,028 i was wrong. It is stock a .020 gap. THat said the end of the electrode is weird. not squared off like a regular plug, but has a half moon cut in it that matches the center electrode. That made it really hard to get a correct gap. So I took my set of B5ES plugs made sure they were re gapped at the Jacobs specs, of .045. from the .020 to .045 gaps the difference Was surely felt. Instant smoother take off and much more power and lower and smoother idle of 800 rps. That is 2 1/2 turns on the idle jets adjustment screws.

I know between .020 and .045 is a big difference for sure i could fell the difference. Just not worth my time to regap the BP6E7 3 electrodes.

Timing done all I have to do is re adjust all the idle screws and sync the carbs.

Thanks for the help but B5ES is for sure the way to go for me.

Fri Jun 14, 2019 10:27 pm

why not just put platinum or iridum in it and forget about spark plugs for the next 15 years or so. :wink: unless your just one of those guys that likes killing sparkplug threads in the heads swaping plugs around like a mtv hootchie swaps spit.... :shock:

Sat Jun 15, 2019 6:40 am

Mark I wish I could but the explicit instructions from Jacobs is
NO Platinum

Iridum

Muli gap

Only Copper core, non resistor at .045 to .050 gap.

THe multi looks close enough but why go through the gapping of 3 electrodes.

Car is now running great.!!!!! And about the 15 years. Lucky if I get 1000 miles a year on it.

Sat Jun 15, 2019 8:40 am

Mark, I check all the NOT to use and I was in error about Iridium. Al I listed in my last post plus Silver and Platinum..

But did not mention No Iridium, the paper work was from 1985, was Iridium even invented??

My new question is -- is Silver and Platinum any different then Iridium other then the type of metal?? Like is it only the longest lasting plug, and give off the same spark and can be made any gap, just as all the rest?

Jacobs give a chart

Stock gap

.020 go to .035

.025 go to . .040

.030 go to . 0 45 That is what I use

The Muli was at .020 . less then half of what they recommended. Obviously that is why I felt the difference.

Sat Jun 15, 2019 10:39 am

the box dosent know what plug you put on it.....I mainly use the multi electrods plugs,2,3 or 4. the only engine I do not use them in is my dirt bike...2 stroke yz250. it will not hit a lick.not even try to fire. I reckon the mag &cdi used back then had a frequency that did not work with these.( so I was told by a ignition builder that built the system on my bike long long ago) it will bite you darn good, but wont spark a platinum....I never tried a iridium. probably something with the resistor in the platinum plug.std resistor/non resistor plugs work fine.
also...instructions are kinda like guide lines....but not.and most are useless and rong.espeialy when they are that old. that was when the best computers worked almost as fast as the speed of...smell :shock: :wink:

Sat Jun 15, 2019 12:50 pm

I bought platinum plugs once many years ago. They lasted almost a week and when I pulled them out there were holes where the center electrode should have been.

I am presently running triple electrode plugs but just put them in as found in the box. I am wondering if there would be anything to gain by opening up the gap on them. I'm running the Ford EDIS system.

Sat Jun 15, 2019 1:11 pm

I am screwed by Photo bucket so I can only send you the information sheet to your email.

Mark or Oprn send me your email and I will send Jacobs advice sheet, old but quite interesting.

My home email is [email protected]