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Mon Apr 15, 2019 10:25 am

My 62 Bug 1600 single port 12v crapped out Saturday morning going to a car show. Spitting, jerking, backfiring. Luckily barely got it home and took the Bus.

It seemed to be a spark issue. So last night I tried new coil wire, new coil, and nothing changed. No fire. Figured the condenser took a dump. So I removed distributor, filed points, gapped, replaced condenser, set timing and runs great.

The condenser was a Bosch, and I replaced it with a new Bosch. That condenser and points were replaced new this time last year. That’s why I keep extras.

Question: are there any decent condensers available? Points are simple, but if there aren’t any decent condensers anymore it may be time to switch it to pertronix electronic ignition like my other VWs. But I’ve had them crap out before too. But they last a lot longer than the crappy condensers. Perhaps I’ll just keep a handful of condensers in my tool bag.

Mon Apr 15, 2019 10:53 am

I hoard NOS Bosch ignition components for this very reason. The new ones, even Bosch brand just don't last. I've got about 6 sets of points, condensors and spark plugs that'll probably last me a long time. Ebay and swap meets are the place to find them but they are getting harder to find.

Mon Apr 15, 2019 11:33 am

Napa standard blue streak or eichlin

Mon Apr 15, 2019 12:12 pm

Does Napa Even differentiate condensers for 6 volt or 12 volts? Yes the old original condensers are the best. My 36 horse 6 volt has a newer bosch 009 condenser and it has a high voltage spark, it will jump an inch but it's very thin. I think it's probably a 12 volt condenser.
The condensers would need to match the impedance of the coil primary so in theory a 6 volt coil would be about Half the XL a 12 volt. Probably calculate the frequency at say 4500 RPM to get the microfarads. Then some formula like XL= 2*Pi*f*Henry. XL is not going to be 1.5 Ohms. But calculating the frequency is complicated it needs to be some portion of the dwell time?

Mon Apr 15, 2019 12:38 pm

Danwvw wrote: Does Napa Even differentiate condensers for 6 volt or 12 volts? Yes the old original condensers are the best. My 36 horse 6 volt has a newer bosch 009 condenser and it has a high voltage spark, it will jump an inch but it's very thin. I think it's probably a 12 volt condenser.
The condensers would need to match the impedance of the coil primary so in theory a 6 volt coil would be about 1.5 Ohms and a 12 volt coil would be 3 ohms. Probably calculate the frequency at say 4500 RPM to get the microfarads. Using some formula like XL= 2*Pi*Henry. XL is not going to be 1.5 Ohms.

The condensers are the same. They work for 6v or 12v. VW never made them for specific voltages. 111905295A is for '66 - '70 bug and bus.

Mon Apr 15, 2019 1:44 pm

Most VW condensers are rated in the range of 0.20 μF to 0.33 μF. The differences between part numbers had more to do with mounting and lead length and termination.

You can examine them after a period of use, according to old-timers' lore: a condenser with too high capacitance rating will cause a tit on the mounting side of the points. A condenser too low capacitance will cause a tit on the arm side of the points.

Mon Apr 15, 2019 2:18 pm

https://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=2241678

Polypropylene capacitor condenser ignition points Price: $17.50
This last condenser you ever need to install. When another stock condenser fails, what will be the cost of a tow truck, another stock condenser with shipping plus the repair bill for a of another stock condenser failure? Replace your aftermarket or old condenser with a Metalized polypropylene film capacitor before it fails again.

Metalized polypropylene film capacitors have "self-healing" properties.
From the data sheet: Life 30,000 Hr. At 35 MPH, life in miles is over 1,000,000 miles.

Mon Apr 15, 2019 3:12 pm

I would think in a 6 volt point system a .22uF would be preferred. and for 12 volt coils use the .33uF. and maybe if you have a racing motor that turns 10000 RPM or something maybe a .1 uF.

Mon Apr 15, 2019 3:35 pm

I bought one from theSamba ad that Glenn suggested. It's going in my beach buggy so I haven't used it yet, but the specs look perfectly suited to the job and the unit comes nicely potted with spade terminals.

Mon Apr 15, 2019 8:44 pm

I've only had one condenser fail in 35 years of VW ownership. It was in the last couple of years.

The latest round of condensers made by Bosch are stamped made in Turkey. I've had no issues reported with these mounted on restored distributors. I did have a NOS SMP condenser fail recently and another I tested failed out of the box. So, no more SMP condensers.

I have multiple sets of NOS German points and condensers for my personal VWs.

Tue Apr 16, 2019 1:23 pm

This 1200 engine was replaced by a shop that sold it to me for $300. The plugs were fouled with oil and timing off, but after timing and plugs it would not start. Went through the troubleshooting check list and it ran perfect after replacing the condenserator with an old one. I measured the old one with a capacitance of 0.2 uF, but the dissipation factor was 0.250 (0.002 is good).

Dissipation factor: The dissipation factor is defined as the value of the tendency of dielectric materials to absorb some of the energy when an AC signal is applied.

I used the engine for 9 months until my baby (1600) was born. Then sold the 1200 it for $600.

The original owner paid about $5,000 for a new engine, when all he need was condenserator and a screwdriver.

dissipation factor
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dissipation_factor

Tue Apr 16, 2019 8:50 pm

I had same problems with the newer Bosch condensers so I used an older AC Delco out of my old Chevy truck. No more problems in the last 3 years.

Wed Apr 17, 2019 8:02 am

green71volks wrote: so I used an older AC Delco out of my old Chevy truck. No more problems in the last 3 years.

For a beater daily driver, there have to be better choices out there than trying to track down NOS German Bosch condensers. I like Glenn's polypropylene capacitor idea. I'm also thinking about old farm tractor stuff (John Deere, Farmall) condensers and those tend to be American made parts still.

I'm running a German Bosch one now that looks ancient and I keep a few spares in the glove box, but I don't see myself paying high prices for NOS German ones in the future.

Wed Apr 17, 2019 8:22 am

How pathetic that 100 year old technology, simple and reliable, and costing only a few bucks, has been turned into a single-point failure due to the average owner being too damn cheap! Is this the path for all our VW parts eventually?

Wed Apr 17, 2019 8:32 am

KTPhil wrote: the average owner being too damn cheap! Is this the path for all our VW parts eventually?
Where have you been for the past 30 years?

Wed Apr 17, 2019 9:21 am

I’m thinking of at least 50 years so that would be 1969 and Gene Berg’s article which was true then and has come to full fruition today. Among his technical articles were a few opinion pieces and one in particular called “Death of an Industry”. Because old Gene has been dead since 1996 much of what he had to say in unknown or overlooked by a younger generation of folks and while he was alive he had competition by those that copied his products but cut corners in machining and materials to sell at a lower price to consumers that don’t know any better, those buyers are still out there.

Gene operated as we do in the aircraft world of any repair or modifications must be as good as or exceed original design limitations, and that does cost more than cranking out cheap look alike shit. His website is still up and has much useful info and remember fundamentals don’t change and neither does human nature. The quick buck artists are still with us. His frank discussion on what it takes to build a crankshaft beginning with raw forgings and grain orientation is worth the price of admission. :D

Wed Apr 17, 2019 9:53 am

Aircraft magneto capacitor should be more reliable, $294.
MAGNETO MAINTENANCE KITS $676.

https://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/eppages/slick08-05220.php?clickkey=7982

Wed Apr 17, 2019 9:57 am

Wayne S. Johnson wrote: Aircraft magneto capacitor should be more reliable, $294.
MAGNETO MAINTENANCE KITS $676.

https://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/eppages/slick08-05220.php?clickkey=7982

I’d try the Napa part and keep the change :D

Wed Apr 17, 2019 1:36 pm

Interesting read and solution here:
http://www.nonlintec.com/sprite/cap_failure/

I believe it was scottyrocks that had a thread here where he used the capacitor in the article. He said it works well so far. Maybe he'll chime in with an update.

Wed Apr 17, 2019 6:23 pm

What is the best location to mount the Polypropylene capacitor condenser that Glenn suggests?