TheSamba.com :: View topic - Fender stretching/shaping/flaring for wider wheels ??

Tue Mar 05, 2019 10:47 am

I'm looking for examples and ideas on stretching/pulling/re-shaping/moving the fenders and/or wheel-arches to allow wider tires to fit under/behind them.

I'm building a custom car with the body of a '67 Type 3 squareback and the chassis & running-gear of a '90 Mazda MX-5 Miata. You can read about it here: http://dannix.net/lib/frankenwagon/chassis-swap . The Miata's wheel track is just a little wider than the VW's, about 4" wider if you take into account the tire width (I'll be using 175-wide tires on 16x5" rims). Oh, and the Miata's upward suspension travel is a little over an inch.

The front tires might just barely fit between the fenders, I haven't had a to chance mount the front fenders yet so I'm not sure. In the rear though, the tires will stick out about ~0.5" or 13mm. But at the lowered height I've welded the Type 3 body to the Miata chassis, the body is also low enough such that the tires in the rear will be jammed into the fenders. And I don't want to raise the suspension.

So that's not a lot but it's something that will need to be taken care of to make the car drivable. For ALL the methods bellow, I'll probably start with using a fender rolling tool, like the one from Eastwood. This will bend the inside edge of the sheet metal upwards at the wheel arch, giving an extra few mm of clearance.

Here's some different ways to go about it that I've come up with so far:

Streching
how: https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=...;start=378
pros:
* can keep the real wheel tucked behind the sheet metal
* looks pretty good
* doesn't stray too far from the stock appearance at most angles
cons:
* panel fitment between fender and doors will be pretty bad
* the crease going down the length of the vehicle will no longer be straight

Wide body
"If you make a vertical slice at the top of the arch, and a long horizontal one along the body line, you can stich in some tin along the body line that will give you a nice coke-bottle sweep. No real fancy metal shaping, just welding and filler to smooth it at the end."
pros:
* can keep the real wheesl tucked behind the sheet metal
* looks pretty awesome
* panel fitment shouldn't change much
cons:
* the crease going down the length of the vehicle will be interrupted
* drag car look, not exactly what I'm going for

^^ that's my project, btw (but not the final location of the tire within the fender)

Pie cuts
pros:
* straight forward
cons:
* possible warping of the sheet metal from welding
* more work than necessary when only a little more clearance is needed?

Fender flares
can use flares cut off of a '95 Nissan Stanza or an old VW Rabbit
or extend the existing T-3 flares by cutting them lengthwise down the middle, moving them outward, and filling in with custom sheet metal
pros:
* very sexy, if done right
cons:
* more work maybe?
smaller flares:

larger flares:

Moving the arches on the fenders
Cut out the wheel arches, cut out a strip of metal above, slide it up, weld it back in
pros:
* closest looking to oem appearance
* don't need fender flares and won't change the panel fitment
* straight forward
* can move the arches forward and backward too if the wheels are not in center of the arch
cons:
* tires will still stick out some
* any warping from the heat of welding will be really obvious
* will need more than a 1" gap between tires and fenders.

I've saved that one above for last because I wanted to ask you guys about that one, I think it's from Indonesia. First thing you might notice is that the windows are different, and the owner on instagram, @dkohdk, says they were "hand made." If you look at his other photos, you'll see that the headlights have been modified as well to fit early bug-style or Porsche 356 headlights. But, to me, it also looks like the wheel arches are higher up on the fenders... right?? I asked him about it on instagram and he said "i just fit the wheel in to the arches" ...I don't think he knows what he has.

What do you guys think? Any other options out there I haven't considered? I may even choose different methods for the front and back wheels, as needed.

So, which method would you choose??

Tue Mar 05, 2019 12:03 pm

Indonesian version looks the best, but do you have his skills to do the same? :wink:
Buy your wheels first & then you'll know what you have to do to cover/run them.

Tue Mar 05, 2019 1:36 pm

My vote (your project of course so my opinion is just that, an opinion) is go with the very last option if it's possible, looks really slick. If you still need some more width maybe add some small flares. I like the original body shape and would try to keep that as much as possible.

Tue Mar 05, 2019 1:50 pm

Mike Fisher wrote: Indonesian version looks the best, but do you have his skills to do the same? :wink:
Buy your wheels first & then you'll know what you have to do to cover/run them.

I have the right tools and I've been doing a ton of welding recently so I'm sure that I can do it, but I've never done anything quite like this. I've welded in patch panels for rust holes a few years ago, but this will be much different, whatever method I choose. Actually, I think the Indonesian version, relocating the fender arches up, would be one of the easier methods. The key will be making sure the panels don't distort from the heat. The welds will want to shrink, causing a valley or "ghost line" along the weld. But because I'll have easy access behind the fender sheet metal, I can planish out the welds with a hammer and dolly. But if the weld is along a seam or the body line, it will be much less of a concern.

The look I'm trying to achieve with this build is, to the untrained eye, it should look factory. But a closer look at the rims and "hmm, something might be different about this car, maybe it's not an old VW afterall..."

If it could look like this after the restoration, then I would be very happy:

And the wheels are on their way.

I got a set of 16x5 +45et alloys made by Toyota for their Scion iQ smart car. Should look pretty sharp.

I thought about it for a LONG time and I really wanted steel smoothie rims with chrome vw hub caps. But I couldn't find the perfect set of steel rims with the right bolt patter, offset and diameter. There's plenty of steel rims out there that fit those dimensions but they would look wrong on an old VW.

And the price of whitewall tires and their limited sizes ruled out that option for me. And I almost got a set of MINI Cooper rims because they have even more offset, +48, but I didn't find a set I liked as much as the iQ rims and at the right price.

I even briefly considered doing a baja thing, but I think it would need to be a fastback and not a squareback to pull it off.

Tue Mar 05, 2019 2:09 pm

Some more pics on wheel-arch relocation:

And it just occured to me that the Type 34 also this look going on as well

Tue Mar 05, 2019 4:39 pm

16X5 ET45 Toyota wheels won't even stick out to the fenders so you can't build wider fenders for skinny wheels. Buy some wider wheels if you want to build something cool/custom.

Wed Mar 06, 2019 11:13 am

mannydantyla wrote: Some more pics on wheel-arch relocation:

And it just occured to me that the Type 34 also this look going on as well

I think the Indonesian version would work out for you real well. I'd like to see pics of it as you modify them. You're only issue that I can see will be on the up stroke of the tire itself, due to it traveling straight up and down, versus cocking inward at the top like a regular VW does. I only mention it, because the upper part of the fender (front or rear) tapers inward from the body line up. I really don't think it'll be much of an issue cutting them and moving them, as you're probably going to remove the rear vents anyway.

The truck in your fender mod pics reminds me of my old 67 short wide side box with a small rear window. I loved that truck, as it was a lot of fun. 8)

Wed Mar 06, 2019 11:45 am

having read through the majority of your "Projects" on your web page, I don't see any reason that you would have trouble with any of the above methods.
Choose the one that YOU like the best and dive in. You'll be happier in the end.

Wed Mar 06, 2019 12:39 pm

Thanks guys!

Mike Fisher wrote: 16X5 ET45 Toyota wheels won't even stick out to the fenders so you can't build wider fenders for skinny wheels. Buy some wider wheels if you want to build something cool/custom.

The Miata's suspension and axles are wider than the Type 3's by 4" in the front and 3" in the rear, and that's not taking into account the width of the tires

Thu Mar 21, 2019 9:47 am

New wheels are on:

Fri Mar 22, 2019 10:31 am

You can stretch that fender by hand, so it will never rub.

Fri Mar 22, 2019 11:17 am

If you are good at body work, stretching can fit the doors and rear hatch as good as a stock fender. Just take more care than I did doing it. ;-) what also helps the fitment is keeping the stock fasteners to attach them and dont use dzus fasteners like I did. ;-)

I'm a little biased, but I like the stretched look the best.

Fri Mar 22, 2019 11:18 am

Mike Fisher wrote: You can stretch that fender by hand, so it will never rub.

Yeah that's what I'm thinking too but it will tweak the gap between the fender and door, and possibly the fender and rear lid. The front fender should be a little better in both up and out directions by a few mm. But I haven't added all the weight of the car yet so maybe not.

The panel gap isn't a problem though. I can correct it with a little welding. The rear fender metal is fairly thin, the front fenders are much heavier gauge. Just something to think about.

Thu Mar 28, 2019 9:00 am

I have been thinking about this very same swap! Take a look at this site if you are interested in flares: https://clinchedflares.com/

Tue Apr 02, 2019 12:12 pm

I got the frankenwagon fully assembled. I mean, it's very hastily and roughly assembled but it I was able to drive it to the gas station and back.

However the fender clearance issue is still very much in play. Once I got to the gas station, with the smaller 23" tires on that came with the Miata, the small amount of clearance I thought I had was no longer there and the tires where rubbing the rear fenders and had melted the rubber a litttle. I guess the coil springs were still settling after being at full droop for a few months while the car was on jack stands.

Here it is with my larger 24 inch diameter wheels:

An easy way to throw money at the problem would be to get some 165/50r16 tires with an overall diameter of 22.5 inches, and throw some of those universal lift spacers in the coil springs, but that would be only temporary.

So I'm still thinking about all my options. I might see what changing the camber of the tires does, especially to the rear. I was able to get the rear fenders to "bow" outward a little. I might try to work on them a little more.

Tue Apr 02, 2019 1:56 pm

That actually sits very nicely. I keep catching myself saying "use shorter rear axles" for getting its on a mazda chassis, lol. So looking at it from the side, it looks like center to center, the wheel length is the same as the Square? The wheels line up great in the arches. I've been kicking around the idea of doing a swap on an S10 frame myself. Still "working out" the thought of it though, lol.

Tue Apr 02, 2019 2:16 pm

Wheres all the build pics?

Tue Apr 02, 2019 4:24 pm

notchboy wrote: Wheres all the build pics? He posted it up above.
http://dannix.net/

Tue Feb 25, 2020 1:27 pm

Update:

I only needed a very small amount of extra clearance so I went with the pie cuts.

However I didn't do a very good job at preserving the OE shape to the fender lip/arch and I think it's a little warped looking. I guess I should have just done more slices. I also repaired some rust.

What do you think I did wrong and how can I avoid this problem on the other side?

and yes I could have done this - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ksUcM76nrc - but that would have only widened the fender lip rather than pulled the whole fender outward to clear the tire tucking into it

oh and I sold the Scion wheels and got these steelies instead. I'm going to paint them black, put white walls on and chrome hubcaps.

Wed Feb 26, 2020 11:32 am

If I had to make a guess, you had too much heat when you welded it back together (your slices). The metal isn't very thick, and it's a large unsupported panel, so you have to watch your heat. Especially in the "pinched" areas. You can see those areas in your photos. You might want to pull the fender back off, and do some hammer and dolly work on it.