TheSamba.com :: View topic - What is the best Beetle for classic car rallies ('67 to '72)?

Thu Jan 31, 2019 12:56 am

Hi All,

I am trying to figure out "What is the best Beetle to use for classic car rallies (pre-75)?"

I'd love to hear your experience on what combination of suspension, engine/tranny, and accessories work best for a quick and dependable rally Beetle that would be used for very spirited driving on pavement and gravel courses, mostly out West in the USA. I live in Northern California.

I have narrowed it down to Beetles from '67 to '72 and would like to hear what others think about the best years to consider for this adventure.

I'm also on the fence regarding the regular Beetle vs the Super Beetle.

Thanks,

Richard

Thu Jan 31, 2019 5:11 am

Search the web for "Porsche Salzburg Käfer" or "Salzburg Beetle"...

https://volkswagen-motorsport.com/index.php?id=2582&L=1

Thu Jan 31, 2019 5:58 am

I’ll repeat my reply from the 58-67 section since this thread has already gotten a response. In the future, please do not post the same question in multiple categories of the forum?

Superbeetles will handle better than Standards, and IRS rear suspended Beetles will handle better than swing axle ones. There can be modifications done to each that will improve handling if you already have a specific vehicle in mind. I would first talk with the sanctioning body that runs the events you want to participate in, and get a rule book. After talking with a local road racer with a 65 Beetle, I was disappointed to find that one of the largest, longest running local vintage races would not let a Beetle run in any of the classes. Turns out a racer with a legal well sorted Sirocco cleaned up in his class one year, and there was such a backlash/protest, the sanctioning body outlawed ALL VW’s except the Formula V racers

Thu Jan 31, 2019 12:02 pm

[email protected] wrote: I’ll repeat my reply from the 58-67 section since this thread has already gotten a response. In the future, please do not post the same question in multiple categories of the forum?

Superbeetles will handle better than Standards, and IRS rear suspended Beetles will handle better than swing axle ones. There can be modifications done to each that will improve handling if you already have a specific vehicle in mind. I would first talk with the sanctioning body that runs the events you want to participate in, and get a rule book. After talking with a local road racer with a 65 Beetle, I was disappointed to find that one of the largest, longest running local vintage races would not let a Beetle run in any of the classes. Turns out a racer with a legal well sorted Sirocco cleaned up in his class one year, and there was such a backlash/protest, the sanctioning body outlawed ALL VW’s except the Formula V racers

@[email protected]:
If you're an admin, free free to delete the other post in the "Beetle - 1958-1967" forum.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts on this subject. Most of the events I'd enter are classic car rallies in California and out in the Western US. I'd love to do the Peking to Paris event, but I'll need to find a sponsors to make that happen. :D

"This Peking to Paris Motor Challenge is open to cars of a type produced before 1976 and is suitable to both novice crews, with training and support, as well as experienced rally entrants."
https://www.endurorally.com/events/the-7th-peking-to-paris-motor-challenge/

@Maddel:
I've seen the "Salzburg Beetle" stories and videos. Cool car! :D Some have even made their own version.
https://petrolicious.com/articles/homebuilt-rally-inspired-super-beetle-fits-just-right

I've also read about Francis Tuthill's various Super Beetle rally cars.
https://cartunevw.co.uk/francis-tuthill-1977
https://www.tuthillporsche.com/blog/tuthill-vw-beetle-africa-rallying/

Here's a list of Regular Beetles used for overland and rally events:
http://www.thedrive.com/travel/2745/this-couple-drove-across-the-planet-in-a-vw-beetle-twice
http://1967beetle.com/ed-janet-howle/
http://pekingtoparis2013littlered.blogspot.com/
https://petrolicious.com/articles/this-is-what-it-s-like-to-rally-a-vw-beetle
https://projectbaja.com/

As you can see, people have different opinions about using a Regular vs Super Beetle for a robust adventuremobile. That's why I would love to hear other's feedback on why they chose a Regular or Super Beetle. Thanks for the discussion! :)

Thu Jan 31, 2019 12:44 pm

maclaren65 wrote:
overland and rally events

Overland events? I thought that was when people park in a grass lot and show off their RTT and skottle? I think either would be fine for that :lol:

A true rally car? I'd stick with a super and lots of spare bushing. What are you actually going to be doing? Racing or just having some fun?

Thu Jan 31, 2019 12:46 pm

I’d love to do the Peking to Paris rally also.

Here’s a thread that I started trying to gather more information on VW rally cars.
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=710604

I also want to enter the Sandblast Rally but it will require that I build my car into a dedicated race car as they require a full cage.

I will say that so far, I like the Ghia platform much better than a Beetle, there is quite a bit more shoulder room in the cabin & even though my car has been raised 5", it still has a lower roofline than a stock Beetle.

Here I am giving my Ghia a shakedown...

Thu Jan 31, 2019 2:12 pm

The Supers have better suspensions for spirited driving.

Bug On!

Thu Jan 31, 2019 2:27 pm

The only times I've ever been amazed at the off-road handling of a Type 1 chassis were a purpose-built Class 11, and a bone-stock low-mileage '78 super vert.

In my opinion, the super suspension does better out of the box, but the standard bug chassis is more well-documented as far as upgrades go, and parts are more readily available.

Question is, what do you imagine your life like with this car? Get in and go? A mild build? Or a total clean slate with purpose-built suspension and modifications?

Robbie

Thu Jan 31, 2019 5:32 pm

Hi All,

Thanks for all your feedback and info! I have a 1987 Porsche Carrera coupe that I have used for autocross, PCA (non-competitive) track days, and the Targa California three times. The VW Beetle appeals to me as it is the original car that led to the Porsche 356 and 911 and it's more of a momentum car that has a reputation for being reliable and easy to work on.

@Brian
My immediate goal is to do classic car rallies in California like the Snowball Rally, Motherlode 400, and Targa California, etc. I signed up for a rallycross school this March, and might do some events later in the year.

http://thesnowballrally.com/
http://www.motherlode400rally.com/aboutthemotherlo.html
http://www.targacalifornia.com/
http://get-primitive.com/blog/primitive-racing-rally-schools/

@TDCTDI
I recently saw your thread. Cool stuff!

@bluebus86
That's what I keep hearing about Super Beetles from their fans. :)

@asiab3
For now, probably "Get in and go" and add updates over time as I settle on the types of events my young son and I will do. For the near term, mostly pavement-based classic car rallies in the West, which might have some dirt stages... but nothing like the Baja 1000. ;) I dream of doing the Peking to Paris, and for that event (if I could ever do it) I'd obviously do a serious build.

Thu Jan 31, 2019 7:54 pm

Ah, it looks like the events you're looking in to require less "rallycross" and more "road rally" elements.

Any '69+ bug could be excellent at any of those events. Standard or super; both will need to be "gone through" to make sure the car is in good shape. I would secretly prefer a convertible ;)

I've driven very stock and very modified bugs 400+ miles on one day trips. They both had their pluses and minuses; though I can't stress enough the importance of ergonomics and noise control for long journeys.

Robbie

Thu Jan 31, 2019 8:09 pm

maclaren65 wrote:
@TDCTDI
I recently saw your thread. Cool stuff!

Thank you. Which thread?

Just in case, here’s the build for The Ghiapet, my rally/rallycross build.
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=691306

For what it’s worth, the rallycross is nowhere near as rough as my blasts down the power lines but ground clearance is a must (a buddy of mine ripped the header & rear apron off his super Beetle during one.). As the day progresses, the ruts get deeper & cars start losing bumper covers & other low hanging components.
Large sidewall tires help avoid the the debeading of tires when leaning into the ruts (lean into the ruts too hard & you’re likely to flip the car.).

Thu Jan 31, 2019 9:33 pm

asiab3 wrote: Ah, it looks like the events you're looking in to require less "rallycross" and more "road rally" elements.

Any '69+ bug could be excellent at any of those events. Standard or super; both will need to be "gone through" to make sure the car is in good shape. I would secretly prefer a convertible ;)

I've driven very stock and very modified bugs 400+ miles on one day trips. They both had their pluses and minuses; though I can't stress enough the importance of ergonomics and noise control for long journeys.

Robbie

Yes, I think for now I'll mostly do spirited driving mostly on California backroads, but I'd love to do some gravel sections too. I would prefer to do a PPI (Pre-purchase inspection) on any 50+ year-old-Beetle if possible, just to know what I am getting into.

Some info I've received from others about Super Beetles:

1) Front torsion bar suspension on Regular Beetles is more rugged and easily modified for off-road than the McPherson struts in Super Beetles, which were essentially designed for smooth North American roads.

2) Post '71 Super Beetles had the pass through air vents behind the rear side windows and rust from the inside out, compromising integrity.

3] If you go the Super Beetle route, be sure to rebuild the front suspension with new bushings all round. No matter how mechanically adept you are, you won't be able to press out the bushings without a heavy duty press. Do research on Super Beetle front end vibration or wobble.

4] Both are good up to about 85/90 mph. Haven't tried above that! Really only difference is the McPherson strut is less bumpy than torsion bars and more resembles the feel that US cars of the 60 & 70 had.

Thu Jan 31, 2019 9:42 pm

TDCTDI wrote: maclaren65 wrote:
@TDCTDI
I recently saw your thread. Cool stuff!

Thank you. Which thread?

The VW Rally Cars thread
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=710604

Ghias are nice, but not what I am looking to experience. The Type 1 Beetle is the first car that made all the other VWs possible including my 911.

I am almost done reading Thinking Small: The Long, Strange Trip of the Volkswagen Beetle, which is an excellent read!
https://www.amazon.com/Thinking-Small-Strange-Volkswagen-Beetle/dp/0345521420

Thu Jan 31, 2019 9:46 pm

This 1972 Super Beetle build is still available on Craigslist. It might be a little more raw than I need, but it's certainly interesting. :) I'd replace the big Baja-style wheels/tires with a set that is better for road and gravel fun. Thoughts?

https://imperial.craigslist.org/cto/d/el-centro-72-vw-beetle-baja/6784464012.html

Fri Feb 01, 2019 3:59 am

maclaren65 wrote: This 1972 Super Beetle build is still available on Craigslist. It might be a little more raw than I need, but it's certainly interesting. :) I'd replace the big Baja-style wheels/tires with a set that is better for road and gravel fun. Thoughts?

https://imperial.craigslist.org/cto/d/el-centro-72-vw-beetle-baja/6784464012.html

Class 11 baja bugs like this may have suspension modifications to provide the lift for larger tires. Some modifications are easier to return to stock heighth than others so inquire about the suspension specifics. Then you can determine if the specific work is within your comfort level.

Edit: ...and that's a standard beetle, rather than a super beetle. For a Super you are looking for the fatter rounder hood and nose that curls under at the bottom apron, usually with air vents down there that made dealer installed air conditioning possible if optioned.

The macpherson front strut suspension and larger trunk capacity of the super beetle made for a more bulbous nose

Fri Feb 01, 2019 4:26 am

[quote="maclaren65"] asiab3 wrote:
2) Post '71 Super Beetles had the pass through air vents behind the rear side windows and rust from the inside out, compromising integrity.

3] If you go the Super Beetle route, be sure to rebuild the front suspension with new bushings all round. No matter how mechanically adept you are, you won't be able to press out the bushings without a heavy duty press. Do research on Super Beetle front end vibration or wobble.

4] Both are good up to about 85/90 mph. Haven't tried above that! Really only difference is the McPherson strut is less bumpy than torsion bars and more resembles the feel that US cars of the 60 & 70 had.

The pass through vents are on all bugs, not just supers. It's the foam insulation that retains moisture, not necessarily the vents. Not all bugs have succumbed. Look for bubbles or paintwork between the vents and rear fender and move on if present.

Urethane bushing kits have solved the super wobble, and are dirt cheap. The modern rubber is not durable so go urethane on the super front. The labor is what it is. You will go through the consumables in suspension and brakes on any bug you bring home before you take it on your rally.

Fri Feb 01, 2019 4:33 am

The super wheelbase is a tad longer too. Check it.

Fri Feb 01, 2019 1:51 pm

Buggeee wrote: The pass through vents are on all bugs, not just supers. It's the foam insulation that retains moisture, not necessarily the vents. Not all bugs have succumbed. Look for bubbles or paintwork between the vents and rear fender and move on if present.

Urethane bushing kits have solved the super wobble, and are dirt cheap. The modern rubber is not durable so go urethane on the super front. The labor is what it is. You will go through the consumables in suspension and brakes on any bug you bring home before you take it on your rally.

I thought the crescent vents behind the side rear windows were only on '71-'75 Super Beetles.

Some advice on the VW Super Beetle Shimmy – How to Find and Fix the Problem!
https://www.aircooled.net/vw-super-beetle-shimmy-death-shake/

The larger front trunk area and fuel tank seem like welcomed additions to the Super Beetle from the switch to MacPherson strut front suspension.

Fri Feb 01, 2019 4:03 pm

Those crescent vents came in 71 on both std and supers.

Many VW's in that era will have the C-pillars backfilled with polyurethane foam which can act as a sponge and encourage rust from the inside out. Something to check for when you are buying a car.

I can say after driving a standard beetle as a daily driver for many years, as well as competing off-road, just go through the car, and make it comfortable for long journeys. What wins races isn't always the higher HP, it's planning, seat time, and familiarity with your vehicle, as well as being able to respond to, and repair something that might go wrong.

If you are doing more spirited driving or racing, you can modify the rear suspension (whether IRS or SA) by adding torsion bar adjusters or at least adjustable spring plates to allow some easy of tune-ability. Standard beetles have options for adjustable torsion leaves, stiffer leaves, or even remove the leaves all together, and use coil over shocks. The also have different spindle options, sway bars and brake options - steering box is cheaper too. I wouldn't recommend a super beetle for harsh off road conditions, compared to the robust-ness of a standard beetle front end.

For long rallies you might also consider fuel consumption/capacity and check the rules of the sanctioning body. If you can only get 10mpg (like we do off-road) you might want a vehicle platform that will allow extra capacity fuel tank, or just go full on fuel cell.

Fri Feb 01, 2019 9:26 pm

Since you have strong Porsche roots, remember that the IRS rear suspension from the Beetle was the basis for that on the Porsche 924. The MacPherson strut front suspension that is on the Super Beetle did not directly transfer onto the 924's front suspension (I think that came mostly from the Audi 100) but at least the layout and general design is. So, if your rallying organizers allow suspension upgrades to a stock Beetle as well as brake upgrades (both the Std and the Supers came with front drum brakes for the US market), I'd suggest the Super. The larger front trunk can be useful for spare parts and clothing storage on your overnight Targa Calif. events. Also seems that a strut brace would be essential on a Super, since the body is used for the strut's upper mounts and can flex slightly when driven hard on rough surfaces. On a Std Beetle, the front axle is indeed very rigid and is not attached to the body for any active mounting points.

On such "any car" events, most people would not know or recognize the differences between a "bulbous" '71 or '72 Super nose and that of a Std., since both still use the same windshield.

Regardless if you buy an IRS Beetle ('69 on) or Super, you need time to learn how to drive the car hard in turns with your upgraded suspension prior to the first event. Race track would be best in case you overdo it in a turn so you don't wipe out into an obstacle as if you'd do this on public roads.

By contrast, my '77 Std Beetle is lowered slightly, has HD front and rear swaybars, light-duty KYB GR2 shocks, Ghia front discs, stainless steel braided brake lines instead of the rubber hoses, and wider wheels in back. Twisty road driving is lots of fun because most people in modern cars don't expect a 40+ year old "Old Beetle" to take the curves as well as it does. I can keep up a higher average speed in the turns to make up for the relative lack of power on straights. If you add a larger engine to your project, it just adds to the "underdog" spirit.