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Mon Aug 06, 2018 9:45 pm

What are the drawbacks to buying a bus with type 4 engine
I was told to look for type 2
What about pancake versus upright
Obviously I'm not well educated on this topic yet. Thanks everyone

Mon Aug 06, 2018 10:08 pm

a bus is a type 2 VW
Type IV is the later powerplant for baywindow bus & early Vanagon.
The Type IV is more robust, 1/3 bigger in size & longer lived IF properly
assembled, but parts are scarcer than the Type 1 (bug,ghia,earlier bus) engine.
The Type 1 engine is the choice if you expect to drive everywhere & have
a shop repair your vehicle, with a Type IV engine, you will have to locate a
shop/person who does know those engines, or learn for yourself about them.
Kind of like owning an antique, find someone or become that person, to run
the later, bigger, rarer engine.

Tue Aug 07, 2018 4:33 am

The largest T4 engine had only 25% more cc's than the T1 1600

Long block to long block the T4 was really not much wider or longer, it was some but not a 1/3rd for you can put a T4 where a T1 once was. Now when a T4 is dressed out with all the tin and shrouds it looks huge, intimidating to most. If you can turn a wrench on a T1 then a T4 is not that much different. Rare, no, parts are more expensive, some searching is required, but to get quality T1 parts you need to search so not much difference just more out of the wallet. The T4 is more robust, better case, heavier internals.

Tue Aug 07, 2018 5:04 am

Most Type 4 engines came in buses with crash protection along with other upgrades that were made over the years.

Tue Aug 07, 2018 5:34 am

If you put bigger pistons on type-1 you get a 1776 or 1815?cc

If you put bigger barrels and pistons on a type-4 you get a 2350 to 2413cc torque monster for your bus which is just what it wants.. :)

Tue Aug 07, 2018 7:20 am

Zed999 wrote: If you put bigger pistons on type-1 you get a 1776 or 1815?cc

If you put bigger barrels and pistons on a type-4 you get a 2350 to 2413cc torque monster for your bus which is just what it wants.. :)

Good advise if you are clowning around. Why not stuff a Merlin engine in the bus? 2L can't shed the heat already and you want to add 25% more? OP stay with the stock T1 engine bus or a stock T4 engine. Robbie and Colin both do that and they cross the USA every year with minimal issues. I used a stock 1971 across the USA maybe 5 times during its life with no issues.

Tue Aug 07, 2018 8:32 am

This can be a confusing topic for newbies so to break it down:

VW "Types" refer to the different models VW made.

Type 1 = Beetle & Super Beetle (also a Karmann Ghia built on that platform).
Type 2 = Bus/Camper/Single Cab/Double Cab
Type 3 = Notchback, Squareback & Fastback (there was also a Karmann Ghia version of the Type 3 too).
Type 4 = 411 and 412 (rare)

There are basically two generations of air-cooled engines that VW built. The original engine design was used in the Beetle hence it is known as the Type 1 engine. When VW started out the Beetle was the only vehicle they made.

Later they started building the Type 2 (Bus) and they didn't have another engine design so they just put the Type 1 engine in it. So the VW Type 2 came with a Type 1 engine in the USA through 1971.

There is no real "Type 3" engine. The Type 3 uses basically the same engine as the Type 1 except with a different cooling system layout. But under the tin it's the same design as the Type 1 engine.

In the late '60s VW came out with the Type 4 model and took the opportunity to design a completely new air-cooled engine to put in it, which of course is called the Type 4 engine. The engine was larger than the Type 1 engine and had more modern features like full-flow oil filtration.

The Type 4 cars never really caught on from a sales standpoint and presumably VW had invested a lot of money in the new engine design. They probably also realized that the Bus could use some more power especially in the USA where we have lots of highways. So starting in 1972, VW started putting the Type 4 engine into the Type 2 (Bus). In the USA, the Type 4 engine was the only engine available in the Bus from 1972 to 1979. In other parts of the world you could generally get either the Type 1 engine or the Type 4 engine. The Type 4 engine also soldiered on from 1980-1983 in the Vanagon.

Finally the Type 4 engine was also used in the Porsche 914. Sometimes you will hear VW people saying their Bus has a Porsche engine in it but that's usually out of ignorance and sometimes out of sad delusion.

EDIT: regarding your question about pancake vs. upright, the Type 1 engine is synonymous with upright. The reason is because of the layout of the fan housing, which sits upright on top of the engine. The Type 4 engine is synonymous with pancake because the layout of the cooling system and fan housing is "flat" compared with the Type 1's upright layout.

Tue Aug 07, 2018 9:30 am

Zed999 wrote: If you put bigger pistons on type-1 you get a 1776 or 1815?cc

If you put bigger barrels and pistons on a type-4 you get a 2350 to 2413cc torque monster for your bus which is just what it wants.. :)

If you have a TIV and it needs to come out and be rebuilt, then larger pistons for nearly the same price as the OEM ones makes a ton of sense. IIRC using a crank from a 2.0 (71mm) and 96 mm (aftermarket) pistons gets you a 2050 cc engine. But if you are starting with a 1.7 engine, then you have more to buy and more to do to make it all fit and get the 2050 engine. Do a google search for VW engine calculator. It will have you input the sizes of cranks and pistons etc.... and it will spit out you resulting CC.

The big expense seems to be the cylinder heads for the TIV. For super duper ones anyway. If you end up with a Type 4, check out the Porsche 914 sites. That engine was also put in the 914. Parts are easy to find and not marked up just cause the 914 uses them too.

Find the vehicle you like, for what you plan to do with it and go from there. Don't be worried about either engine. The 1st TIV engine put in a bus was 72. Old buses had the type 1 upright engine.

Tue Aug 07, 2018 9:46 am

In 1968 the Type 2 bus changed body and chassis from the split window windshield ones to the Baywindow windshields.
1968-1971 Type 2 Busses also used a Type 1 Beetle engine but it used a rear mount and the engine block-case must have mounting holes for the rear mount which the factory type 1 beetle engines did not have. Aftermarket Type 1 Block-Cases do have these rear mount holes so the engine can be used in a 1968-1971 Type 2 Bay window bus.
In 1972 the Type 2 Bay window got the Type 4 engine which at the time was a 1700cc engine, however, it had a reduced stroke. 66mm rather than 69mm in the type 1 engine. It was not until 1976 that the VW Bus Type 4 engine increased it's stroke from 66mm to 71mm and with 94mm bore it was considered a 2.0 L engine. The Porsche 914 engine, however, received the 2.0L starting in 1973 when it discontinued the 914/6 mid-engine option.
The Porsche 914 engine is a little different for example it has a Porsche Head, not the VW Head.

Tue Aug 07, 2018 9:59 am

the whole reason the bus disappeared in North America as to new sales was because the public had this insatiable appetite that bigger and more power was better. With an air cooled bus that is not the case unless you have a very deep wallet. These buses cannot shed heat when they go to larger displacements unless all sorts of changes are made. The reason that so many VW buses are still out there is that they were so underpowered no one wanted them except those who were willing to take life a little simpler. Now we see the bug crowd coming here with this bigger is better mentality and that is not so in a bus. The size and wind resistance beats an air cooled motor in a bus to death. In case no one noticed but there is a big new truck campaign on TV. The NEW DODGE, FORD, CHEVROLET truck with a payload of 2000 pounds! FWIW an F-150 holds 1000 pounds as a payload. Notice the payload on a bus - 2200 pounds +/-. Put a bigger motor in it, drive it at freeway speeds and you WILL cook the motor.

Tue Aug 07, 2018 10:35 am

SGKent wrote: Now we see the bug crowd coming here with this bigger is better mentality and that is not so in a bus. The size and wind resistance beats an air cooled motor in a bus to death.

For sure I built a 1.8L type 1 (88mm bore, 74mm stroke) for my 1971 type2 bus and it can really easily push the bus up past what the stock 1.6 did. It runs too cool at 65mph but drive it 70mph and it will come right up to operating temperature quickly. With the new thick wall cylinders and more cam, it will handle the freeway on a 90' day for short periods of time having no problem keeping up with traffic. But I always go through some oil doing that. I think it's the type 1 block really was not designed for more than a stock 69mm stroke.

Tue Aug 07, 2018 10:55 am

Hey Centurion, where are you located? That will have a lot to do with what is available, and what is easy to own.

Traveling the country twice and helping people with their VWs along the way, I see a few trends in buses around the country. Statistically speaking from my records, the Midwest is made up of over 90% late bays with Type 4s. The mountainous west (interestingly enough) is about half T1 and half T4 bays. California has a significant bias towards early bays, and the PNW leans towards T4 engines, but still has a healthy T1 population.

(My speculation on this involves the T4 being longer-lasting, so the T1 buses are dying out in states where T4 buses are more valued due to lack of emissions testing. In states with kinder weather [no salt!] the T1 bus is popular in the classic car culture, because for some weird reason collectors and car show judges prefer the earlier body style as opposed to a car that can go 70mph and get 100,000 miles out of an engine easily.)

I bring this up, because I think it's important to be aware of the community you're buying into. If you buy the same engine that all the folks in your local VW club have, you'll have a MUCH better time getting any issues worked out with some help from buddies, instead of relying on a shop to learn your car and mess it up while doing so. It's like buying a professional camera; Canon, Nikon, or Sony? It literally doesn't matter- they're all good! But if you want to share lenses/accessories with your friends/family, buy whatever they have to make your life easier.

The four highest milage buses on this forum are all 68-70 bays, rocking our drum brakes and Type 1 engines. But we also do a little more maintenance and drive a little slower.

Robbie

Tue Aug 07, 2018 1:06 pm

a Type 1 can use Type 1, 2 or 3 crankcases, or a universal case, which has all these features

68 - 71 Type 2s had a "mustache bar" to support the rear of the engine. this required 3 extra holes, seen here:

Type 3 cases had the mustache bar holes and a different dip stick location, noted by the red arrow here:

all type 3 cases use 8 mm studs

the Type 3 was the pancake engine. the Type 4 is flat like the Type 3, but it's not the pancake engine.

Wed Aug 08, 2018 9:29 am

SGKent wrote: Zed999 wrote: If you put bigger pistons on type-1 you get a 1776 or 1815?cc

If you put bigger barrels and pistons on a type-4 you get a 2350 to 2413cc torque monster for your bus which is just what it wants.. :)

Good advise if you are clowning around. Why not stuff a Merlin engine in the bus? 2L can't shed the heat already and you want to add 25% more? OP stay with the stock T1 engine bus or a stock T4 engine. Robbie and Colin both do that and they cross the USA every year with minimal issues. I used a stock 1971 across the USA maybe 5 times during its life with no issues. Tosh. You're just making it up because you haven't experience of this. I have one in my heavy bus. 2413cc. Stock absolutely everything apart from big pistons, worked 1700 heads and DRLA carbs. Less than 8:1 CR, runs all day at 70mph (satnav, clock reads 75), oil never over 100°C, heads never over 375°F. 180 lb/ft at 1850rpm, peak 100HP just under 4,000. Built for low rev torque and very under specced (VW style) so it should last. It eats hills and accelerates nicely in any gear.

Wed Aug 08, 2018 11:19 am

Zed999 wrote: SGKent wrote: Zed999 wrote: If you put bigger pistons on type-1 you get a 1776 or 1815?cc

If you put bigger barrels and pistons on a type-4 you get a 2350 to 2413cc torque monster for your bus which is just what it wants.. :)

Good advise if you are clowning around. Why not stuff a Merlin engine in the bus? 2L can't shed the heat already and you want to add 25% more? OP stay with the stock T1 engine bus or a stock T4 engine. Robbie and Colin both do that and they cross the USA every year with minimal issues. I used a stock 1971 across the USA maybe 5 times during its life with no issues. Tosh. You're just making it up because you haven't experience of this. I have one in my heavy bus. 2413cc. Stock absolutely everything apart from big pistons, worked 1700 heads and DRLA carbs. Less than 8:1 CR, runs all day at 70mph (satnav, clock reads 75), oil never over 100°C, heads never over 375°F. 180 lb/ft at 1850rpm, peak 100HP just under 4,000. Built for low rev torque and very under specced (VW style) so it should last. It eats hills and accelerates nicely in any gear.

Drive it like that every day as your only daily driver, come back and post how things work out as you pass thru 40,000 miles on it. Making power is easy. The case and the heads won't hold up for the 80,000 - 100,000 miles a stock engine would.

Wed Aug 08, 2018 1:29 pm

SGKent wrote: Zed999 wrote: SGKent wrote: Zed999 wrote: If you put bigger pistons on type-1 you get a 1776 or 1815?cc

If you put bigger barrels and pistons on a type-4 you get a 2350 to 2413cc torque monster for your bus which is just what it wants.. :)

Good advise if you are clowning around. Why not stuff a Merlin engine in the bus? 2L can't shed the heat already and you want to add 25% more? OP stay with the stock T1 engine bus or a stock T4 engine. Robbie and Colin both do that and they cross the USA every year with minimal issues. I used a stock 1971 across the USA maybe 5 times during its life with no issues. Tosh. You're just making it up because you haven't experience of this. I have one in my heavy bus. 2413cc. Stock absolutely everything apart from big pistons, worked 1700 heads and DRLA carbs. Less than 8:1 CR, runs all day at 70mph (satnav, clock reads 75), oil never over 100°C, heads never over 375°F. 180 lb/ft at 1850rpm, peak 100HP just under 4,000. Built for low rev torque and very under specced (VW style) so it should last. It eats hills and accelerates nicely in any gear.

Drive it like that every day as your only daily driver, come back and post how things work out as you pass thru 40,000 miles on it. Making power is easy. The case and the heads won't hold up for the 80,000 - 100,000 miles a stock engine would. It's been my daily/only driver since built 3 years ago. :) Think about it. The heat and wear comes from having to thrash weedy bus engines to keep up with todays traffic and generally from high revs. This cruises at 70mph on the flat on 1/4 pedal at 3800. It never sees over 4,000rpm. In my opinion this is precisely how to improve a bus engine without making it overheat - add the extra grunt at revs you use all the time in normal driving by increasing the capacity. The result is a delight to drive I assure you. Will it last? Well the oil stays clean, the crankcase breathing is undetectable, it has equal compression on all cylinders, valve gaps haven't needed adjusting but it does have a pushrob tube leak. and only 15,000 miles so far, I don't commute so not many miles per year. It might sound thrown together, but it was very carefully built from a fantastic core and part of the brief was to use stock heat exhangers and exhaust - another reason to keep peak torque down at lower revs. I just can't see it chewing itself up - it never has to work hard.

Wed Aug 08, 2018 2:57 pm

Zed999 wrote: SGKent wrote: Zed999 wrote: SGKent wrote: Zed999 wrote: If you put bigger pistons on type-1 you get a 1776 or 1815?cc

If you put bigger barrels and pistons on a type-4 you get a 2350 to 2413cc torque monster for your bus which is just what it wants.. :)

Good advise if you are clowning around. Why not stuff a Merlin engine in the bus? 2L can't shed the heat already and you want to add 25% more? OP stay with the stock T1 engine bus or a stock T4 engine. Robbie and Colin both do that and they cross the USA every year with minimal issues. I used a stock 1971 across the USA maybe 5 times during its life with no issues. Tosh. You're just making it up because you haven't experience of this. I have one in my heavy bus. 2413cc. Stock absolutely everything apart from big pistons, worked 1700 heads and DRLA carbs. Less than 8:1 CR, runs all day at 70mph (satnav, clock reads 75), oil never over 100°C, heads never over 375°F. 180 lb/ft at 1850rpm, peak 100HP just under 4,000. Built for low rev torque and very under specced (VW style) so it should last. It eats hills and accelerates nicely in any gear.

Drive it like that every day as your only daily driver, come back and post how things work out as you pass thru 40,000 miles on it. Making power is easy. The case and the heads won't hold up for the 80,000 - 100,000 miles a stock engine would. It's been my daily/only driver since built 3 years ago. :) Think about it. The heat and wear comes from having to thrash weedy bus engines to keep up with todays traffic and generally from high revs. This cruises at 70mph on the flat on 1/4 pedal at 3800. It never sees over 4,000rpm. In my opinion this is precisely how to improve a bus engine without making it overheat - add the extra grunt at revs you use all the time in normal driving by increasing the capacity. The result is a delight to drive I assure you. Will it last? Well the oil stays clean, the crankcase breathing is undetectable, it has equal compression on all cylinders, valve gaps haven't needed adjusting but it does have a pushrob tube leak. and only 15,000 miles so far, I don't commute so not many miles per year. It might sound thrown together, but it was very carefully built from a fantastic core and part of the brief was to use stock heat exhangers and exhaust - another reason to keep peak torque down at lower revs. I just can't see it chewing itself up - it never has to work hard.

They don't implode. They just crack heads, pull studs, crack cases, strip studs, heads loosen, plugs seize due to cracks in the head yada yada. 15,000 miles you have some time to enjoy it. I drove 15,000 to 20,000 a year with hotroded engines. One day some 35,000 to 40,000 miles later oil would start dripping where it really should not, and it would be a hairline crack in the case - on a perfectly balanced engine. Fatigue. Or several pushrod tube would start leaking so I'd pull the heads to replace the gaskets on the tubes only to find there were several nasty cracks developing already. Lower end never gave me trouble but once after 300,000 miles on a crank when the shims wore grooved thru to the dowel pins. Mostly cracked heads and cases. T1 engines were never built to handle 100 HP day after day. If they were then someone like Pauter would not be in business - nor would there be so many companies selling new T1 cases. You don't see new T4 cases being sold do you? Have to go to VW for one of those - and the cost is a lot more than an aftermarket T1 case.

Wed Aug 08, 2018 3:46 pm

Well I'm sorry but a 1600 engine in a camper is just not up to it.
A 2l nearly is but not quite. Slowing down up hills is 1970's and just doesn't cut it today.
I agree about the cases, but I don't see the need to preserve them for future generations. Eventually it'll be worth $ to make them again and someone will.

Wed Aug 08, 2018 10:47 pm

Zed999 wrote: Well I'm sorry but a 1600 engine in a camper is just not up to it.make them again and someone

Mmmmmm try again when you’ve got 65,000 miles on your Type 1 and you’re planning another 12,000 mile lap around the continental US.

It’s eaten The Rockies, Death Valley and the Sierra Nevadas in the same week. (That’s a 25,000+ foot elevation difference. Do you even have mountains across the pond? :lol: )

Robbie

Wed Aug 08, 2018 11:01 pm

Oh sweet. We got one of those "everyone got one" threads going :roll: :lol:

:popcorn: