TheSamba.com :: View topic - Leaking diesel injector 1.6L, tightening, etc.

Sun Jul 29, 2018 10:27 am

Hello,

At the end of our recent trip we had diesel fuel leaking either at the injectors, fuel hoses, or hard lines. The fabric covering on the hoses is saturated, there are puddles around the injectors. Injectors rebuilt by mechanic last year, new return hoses soon after. I would like to check the torque on the hard lines and injectors but am not sure of the right tool since the injector has fuel barbs, and the hard lines have a pipe coming out. My torque wrench only accepts sockets.

The bentley says I need to use US 2775 or equivalent to remove injectors. Looking this up I find VW TDI 99+ but nothing older. Can someone clarify the right tool(s) for the job here?

Thanks -- sorry for the base questions.

Sun Jul 29, 2018 11:12 am

They makes an open end wrench that accepts a square socket wrench.
Most commonly called a "crows foot".

https://www.amazon.com/TEKTON-2580-8-Inch-Crowfoot-Wrench/dp/B000NPR2BC

Dave

Sun Jul 29, 2018 11:25 am

djkeev wrote: They makes an open end wrench that accepts a square socket wrench.
Most commonly called a "crows foot".

https://www.amazon.com/TEKTON-2580-8-Inch-Crowfoot-Wrench/dp/B000NPR2BC

Dave

Thanks Dave. That's exactly what I need.

S

Sun Jul 29, 2018 11:47 am

Bear in mind that, since a crow's-foot wrench extends the overall length of your lever, it requires that you make a mathmatical correction in your torque settings.

Some say that if you attach the crow's-foot 90-degrees perpendicular to the axis of the torque wrench, it (nearly) obviates the need for any correction. But I haven't looked into this very deeply.

Interesting discussion here:
https://www.finishing.com/118/94_crows_foot_torque.shtml

Sun Jul 29, 2018 12:23 pm

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tv_KHH55qdQ

The little return lines on the injectors are notorious for leaking. I would start with replacing those. The cloth line sucks compared to c-210-a tubing from mcmaster. Get the 1/8" ID 1/4" OD 5549K31. While you're at it, get the 5549k34 for the line from the filter to injection pump inlet.

I'd start there before messing with the metal lines. If checking the torque on the injectors themselves, the metal lines should be removed. You should not attempt to use any crow's foot adapter or even an open end wrench. You run a high risk of cracking the head that way.

Sun Jul 29, 2018 12:46 pm

?Waldo? wrote: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tv_KHH55qdQ

The little return lines on the injectors are notorious for leaking. I would start with replacing those. The cloth line sucks compared to c-210-a tubing from mcmaster. Get the 1/8" ID 1/4" OD 5549K31. While you're at it, get the 5549k34 for the line from the filter to injection pump inlet.

I'd start there before messing with the metal lines. If checking the torque on the injectors themselves, the metal lines should be removed. You should not attempt to use any crow's foot adapter or even an open end wrench. You run a high risk of cracking the head that way.

?Waldo? Thanks for the details. How would you test the injectors? Maybe a very deep socket?

Sun Jul 29, 2018 1:59 pm

you need to pinpoint the leak location first before you start torqueing things but as Waldo said, by far the largest suspect is the rubber return lines. they just press on to the barb but do leak unless they are fresh, springy rubber.

if a mechanic rebuilt the injectors, it is possible to have a leak between the body halves. there's a large torque setting for this but they sometimes need an extra ummph to keep them from leaking. tightening the halves also changes (increases) the pop pressure so if the halves WERE leaking, i'd pull them all and tighten the leaky one but then check pop pressures. requires special test equipment that diesel nuts have <cough>.

lastly, the only good way to remove the injector itself is with a 27mm socket. they are sometimes tight. there's a VERY good chance the socket will be too thick and wedge between the injector and head. simply grind down the sidewall of the socket on a bench grinder until it slips over the injector without contacting the head.

haven't used this but the price is right:
https://www.hansautoparts.com/27mmInjectorSocket.aspx

Sun Jul 29, 2018 2:35 pm

DanHoug wrote: you need to pinpoint the leak location first before you start torqueing things but as Waldo said, by far the largest suspect is the rubber return lines. they just press on to the barb but do leak unless they are fresh, springy rubber.

if a mechanic rebuilt the injectors, it is possible to have a leak between the body halves. there's a large torque setting for this but they sometimes need an extra ummph to keep them from leaking. tightening the halves also changes (increases) the pop pressure so if the halves WERE leaking, i'd pull them all and tighten the leaky one but then check pop pressures. requires special test equipment that diesel nuts have <cough>.

lastly, the only good way to remove the injector itself is with a 27mm socket. they are sometimes tight. there's a VERY good chance the socket will be too thick and wedge between the injector and head. simply grind down the sidewall of the socket on a bench grinder until it slips over the injector without contacting the head.

haven't used this but the price is right:
https://www.hansautoparts.com/27mmInjectorSocket.aspx

Thanks everyone for the feedback.

I will first source some hose in Canada and try that. I've cleaned the engine bay and will try to identify the source otherwise. I didn't see anything obvious at idle. If it's the injectors I would expect it worse under load. I'll come back if I have more questions.

S

Sun Jul 29, 2018 3:07 pm

sphet wrote: ?Waldo? Thanks for the details. How would you test the injectors? Maybe a very deep socket?

For checking the injector torque you need to remove the metal lines. Use a deep 27mm socket that is wide enough in far enough that it does not damage the return barbs. You need to be sure to orient the torque wrench so that it is parallel to the crankshaft and so that you are pushing toward the engine. In other words, when tightening injectors on a diesel vanagon, the bar of the toque wrench should be pointed straight toward the back of the van and parallel to the ground. Otherwise you risk cracking the head around the injectors.

When loosening injectors the bar should be parallel to the ground and pointing toward the front of the van.

Sun Jul 29, 2018 3:39 pm

heed what Waldo said in terms of tightening and loosening position of the wrench. there are some sad stories of head bosses being cracked when trying to remove injectors.

but really, a 'loose' injector as it rests in the head just oozes black everywhere. if you are seeing fresh fuel, it is not from a loose-in-the-head injector. and if it were the injector body halves leaking, there's no way you can tighten them while in the engine.

concentrate on the rubber lines. they hold very little pressure and you can use ANY tight fitting rubber line for a while to clean things up. diesel and especially biodiesel will swell some rubbers quite quickly so you do need to find diesel compatible return line in 3-3.5mm diameter. it's common on the web. i can state for a fact that the blue tygon fuel line is NOT what you should use!

then check the steel line nuts for snug-ness on all 8 locations. next examine the steel lines as they can crack or wear thru especially at the line clamps.

Mon Jul 30, 2018 2:56 pm

Thanks for all the great information so far.

I finished cleaning the engine bay as best I can and fired up the engine. Revving the engine, I was able to see significant fuel leak on one injector. I don't have new return lines yet, but I switched the rubber hoses around to see if it was the hoses. After revving the engine and sitting at idle,the one injector is clearly leaking dramatically. I can see the fuel quickly accumulate after wiping down the injector. It appears to be leaking from the injector pipe nut - both out the top around the hardline, and below. There appears to be some tool marks on there as if someone reefed on it before. Looking at the Bentley I don't see any seals, washers, o-rings there. Can I just remove the whole injector line assembly and inspect it? I don't have a crow's foot adapter for my torque wrench so I guess I should order that before trying to torque the injector lines back on. Even if I get it off, what do people expect I would find - problems with the injector, or the hard lines? I see cip1 sells replacement hard-lines (delivery pipes) matched to each cylinder. I am tempted to buy the appropriate one and try it. Again I should probably get reasonable crow's foot adapter to get the torque right since they are under pressure, right?

I suspect the fabric hoses were saturate because the fuel was leaking so much. I imagine climbing a hill the pressure would be even more and would likely spray a bit and make it seem there was a leak on every injector.

Hoping for some more excellent advice!

Thanks again.

Steven

Mon Jul 30, 2018 3:56 pm

just put a good fitting wrench on it and snug it up. steel connection like a brake line. the previous wrench marks could indicate previous mechanic had issues with it leaking and really cranked on it. a new set of lines all around is not a bad thing.

dan

Mon Jul 30, 2018 4:05 pm

If the metal line is in good condition, tightening the union might fix the leak. Sometimes the metal lines get over-tightened and deformed at the injectors and new lines are required. Do you have the three anti-vibration clamps correctly mounted to the injection lines? If not, then they have a tendency to crack and can do so at that union nut. Posting a pic that shows more of the engine would make it easy to point out other potential issues.

Mon Jul 30, 2018 5:09 pm

I loosened the nut, cleaned the threads on both the nut and the injector and snugged it up. The leaking from the nut seems to have stopped although I have not yet driven it under load. I have tried to clean up all the remaining diesel but it's still in the grooves of the injectors, etc. I'll keep an eye on it.

Waldo - yes, the anti-vibration insulators are badly cracked/missing. The problem did get progressively worse over our four weeks on the road - especially after the pot holes on gravel ( do I need new shocks and springs, how can I tell? for another post). Looks like I could use any kind of rubber in there as isolators since it shouldn't be getting too hot.

Here's a picture of the engine. It's a 1.6L NA but is a rebuild from a rabbit/jetta with 15,000KM on it supposedly. I don't trust it too much since they rebuilt the engine without rebuilding the injectors, replaced the stock alternator 2-pulley setup with a single one, etc. The previous owner also had a custom coolant tank installed because it was NLA for so long. It doesn't have a sensor socket; you can see the OE plug dangling down there somewhere).

Thanks everyone for the help - feeling I am slowly gaining confidence not to run to the mechanic around the corner every time something smells or sounds wrong.

Mon Jul 30, 2018 5:48 pm

just as a bit of information... the pressure on the injectors, lines, and pump is the same at idle as it is at speed. just the FREQUENCY of injection changes. the total pressure, about 1650 psi, is set by the pop pressure of each individual injector. that in turn is set by the individual spring pressure inside each injector set with different thickness shims.

in other words, if it doesn't leak at idle, it won't leak at speed!

one big caution as a new diesel owner... diesel under 1200-1650 psi can inject itself into your skin and cause all sorts of nasty issues so be careful around the lines when tightening or loosening while running. you sometimes do this to bleed air out of the system. a rilly helpful accessory is an inline, oscillating fuel pump to help prime the system if you run the tank dry. it doesn't need to be on all the time, fuel sucks thru it, but when changing filters or priming the injection pump is is wonderful.

https://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/eppages/facetpumps.php

Mon Jul 30, 2018 6:09 pm

DanHoug wrote: one big caution as a new diesel owner... diesel under 1200-1650 psi can inject itself into your skin and cause all sorts of nasty issues so be careful around the lines when tightening or loosening while running

To be clear, the medical procedure for diesel injected under the skin is amputation. Seriously. If you want to keep your fingers/hands/arms make sure you don't do anything that can cause the pressurized diesel to hit your skin.

Mon Jul 30, 2018 6:10 pm

?Waldo? wrote: DanHoug wrote: one big caution as a new diesel owner... diesel under 1200-1650 psi can inject itself into your skin and cause all sorts of nasty issues so be careful around the lines when tightening or loosening while running

To be clear, the medical procedure for diesel injected under the skin is amputation. Seriously.

Yikes! i wear latex gloves when working with the van; any other precautions I should take?

One more reason to wish I had a later model gasser :(

Mon Jul 30, 2018 6:16 pm

Latex won't stop a fine stream of injected diesel any more than your skin. Just be aware and generally keep back from any high pressure leaks. If a metal line gets cracked don't put your finger near the crack when it's running. The diesel from the rubber lines is not pressurized so leaks there are not a danger.

I wouldn't want a later model gasser. In fact I've converted several to TDI. Gassers are certainly not any safer and far more prone to burst into flames and burn to the ground.

Mon Jul 30, 2018 6:19 pm

?Waldo? wrote:
I wouldn't want a later model gasser. In fact I've converted several to TDI. Gassers are certainly not any safer and far more prone to burst into flames and burn to the ground.

I love our van but the pile of NLA parts can seem daunting. However the mileage and fuel costs are great and there's not a lot of complicated components. One day a TDI when there's time and money!

Mon Jul 30, 2018 7:03 pm

the 1.6l diesel is the ultimate armageddon machine after the big EMP goes off in the sky... just one 12v connection to a solenoid and you don't even need that if you take the little rubber knob off the end of it. requires absolutely no electricity or electronics to run. sure, it has 12v glow plugs and a starter but a pan of coals under the engine and push start and you're running.

they are endearing little engines. require their own zen like attitude when driving but we can all use more mindfulness. i drove one 140K miles on straight veg oil-- old fryer grease. can't get cooler than that.