TheSamba.com :: View topic - NAPA 80/90 premium gear oil is Valvoline high performance 831?

Mon Jun 11, 2018 11:14 pm

Sorry for the cross post. I posted this querry in the "performance" forum.

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Vanagon Nut wrote: Glenn wrote: I use Valvoline VV831.

Anyone know if this

https://www.napacanada.com/en/p/NPF8310

is the same stuff as VV831? NAPA part number is 8310. Coincidence?

The folks at my local Canadian NAPA store said it was supplied to NAPA from Valvoline.

Neil.

Tue Jun 12, 2018 12:19 pm

This doesn't really confirm much but in the safety data sheet PDF for this NAPA NPL 8310 product, I see the name "Ashland" which is (or was?) a name closely associated with Valvoline.

Neil.

Thu Jun 14, 2018 1:51 pm

so I'm comparing data sheets and though I don't really know what I'm looking at, there are similarities or equals in areas like "boiling point", "flash point" "viscosity, kinematic" but that may boil down to it being the same weight oil. Under section 3 'ingredients' or 'components' I do see what may be very similar or same concentration %

In terms of time, I'm out of warranty on my rebuilt transaxle but it only has about 50K miles on it and my non stock engine certainly has less than the 115 HP 122 ft/lb its rated at. Regardless, if this oil provides good shifting in colder or warmer ambient temps but causes possible long term wear at non ferrous parts, I'd consider it a "wash" in terms of cost. (this oil is less than 1/2 of something like Castrol Syntec)

I hope to swap this gear oil into my transaxle soon so will report back.

Neil.

Thu Jun 14, 2018 3:08 pm

I experienced poor performance with the Napa 80W-90 in my transaxle.

Specifically; hard shifting after several hours at highway speed.

Thu Jun 14, 2018 3:20 pm

Thanks Mellowslow

Do you think the poor shifting after time driven on highway is due to it being 80-90 vs 75-90 ?

This whole gear oil thing is melting my brain. :roll:

Thu Jun 14, 2018 6:32 pm

if you want to trade brain rest for cash, just buy a gallon of Swepco 202 and be done with it. wonderful shifts, hot or cold. excellent wear protection. $100USD.

Thu Jun 14, 2018 7:01 pm

Thanks Dan. Yes. Had read of the Swepco. I guess Vanagon transaxle oil just costs money. I cited Castrol Syntec is one example of a GL5 that fared well in an ASTM D130 test list I found online.

But then from another forum on oils, regarding that "copper strip test" :

https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/2555708/Copper_Strip_Tarnish_Test:__22

"Note the ASTM D130 test coupons never showed any corrosion, only tarnishing, except for the Lucas, MOPAR LS additive and the RP. But most of those lubes are primarily differential lubricants, not manual transmission lubricants. And how many modern differentials use brass components?

Also notice the copper strip used for testing is pure copper, not the brass copper alloys used in transmissions. which are more resistant to corrosion.

Your brass synchros will wear out long before any of the sulfur corrosively attacks them.

You are forgetting the fact that gear lubes contain metal deactivators, rust inhibitors and TAN buffers to inhibit any copper alloy attack.

I have torn apart quite a few manual trannys and have never seen any tarninishing of the brass synchros, with one exception. This exception was a manual tranny from a farm truck with 180,000 miles on it and the fluid had never been changed.

Which leads me to my final point: Change fluids between 30,000 and 50,000 miles to replenish original base oil viscosity and additives. "

Fri Jul 06, 2018 12:57 pm

So though I read and appreciated the input, I put in this gear oil to replace the Redline MT. I had the van front raised so was able to "overfill" the tranny a bit. Maybe by 0.5 litres? I removed just over 3 litres. My initial observations:

- edit: the new gear oil is lime/yellow colour.

- drain plug had very little fuzz. Zero larger pieces.

- I can now easily shift gears, tranny cold or warm, engine off, clutch pedal up. With the Redline or previous brand Synthetic, I could not do this. Even when tranny was "new".

- shifting while driving, I can "feel the parts" more so. Changing from gear to gear feels less "vague". (probably means nothing)

- up/down shifting to 2nd is about the same, maybe a little better, but then its been warm outside lately.

I'll be curious to see how it shifts on highway after some hours driving and very curious to see the if the noise I was hearing, after some hours driving at slower speeds on a hot day, lessens or abates. At first I thought that noise was the TOB but I think it was/is from a bearing related to the input shaft. In neutral, clutch pedal up or down, I'd hear the noise. Clutch pedal down, put in gear, noise stopped, every time.

Neil.

Fri Jul 06, 2018 1:07 pm

Vanagon Nut wrote:
I'll be curious to see how it shifts on highway after some hours driving and very curious to see the if the noise I was hearing, after some hours driving at slower speeds on a hot day, lessens or abates. At first I thought that noise was the TOB but I think it was/is from a bearing related to the input shaft. In neutral, clutch pedal up or down, I'd hear the noise. Clutch pedal down, put in gear, noise stopped, every time.

Neil.

I was hearing this as well. I'll double-check next time I drive and see if it's still a thing. I don't recall if I heard it *before* I changed the gear oil. I think it may have stopped but it may just that I stopped listening for it.

Fri Jul 06, 2018 1:41 pm

Paulbeard wrote: Vanagon Nut wrote:
... and very curious to see the if the noise I was hearing, after some hours driving at slower speeds on a hot day, lessens or abates. ...

Neil.

I was hearing this as well.

FWIW, my thinking is that the Redline oil, under hot conditions, might've been geting a bit too thin. The other part to the nois, is that its possible my oil change was overdue in terms of miles. But I really don't think I was past the 20K mile mark. The odometer was swapped out with a zeroed unit around the time of rebuilt tranny install. I'm currently at about 49K miles. I had changed the oil once already.

Fri Jul 06, 2018 2:26 pm

Since it doesn't say or even imply that it is okay for use in synchronized transmissions and transaxles I would not use it.

Fri Jul 06, 2018 3:08 pm

Wildthings wrote: Since it doesn't say or even imply that it is okay for use in synchronized transmissions and transaxles I would not use it.

Ok. I now see that GL4 GL5 API ratings don't necessarily mean a given gear oil is ok to use in a synchronized transmission. I assumed they did. I can't speak to the voracity of these statements but searching the 'net further seems to indicate he's correct.

https://www.widman.biz/uploads/Transaxle_oil.pdf

The Difference between GL-4 and GL-5 Gear Oils
by Richard Widman
Revision 6 - 2017

The original target audience for this paper was my group of friends in the Corvair world, but it applies to all cars and is particularly important for all classic cars.

There is a lot of confusion about gear oils and the API classifications. In this paper I will try to differentiate the two oils and clear up the mysteries that are flying all over the internet. It is extremely common, or normal, for all GL-5 oils to claim they cover the API GL-4 requirements for gear oils. This is a true statement. Does that make them satisfactory for synchromesh or synchronized transmissions?

NO!

They meet the GEAR OIL specifications, not transmission oil specifications. The API GL-4 and GL-5 categories do not mention or have anything to do with transmission synchronizers.

Fri Jul 06, 2018 3:16 pm

I see that this is a "performance" gear oil and that some race, commercial vehicles use non synchromesh transmissions but the clerks at the store knew I'd be using it in a normal car transmission. Why sell it to me?

This transmission oil thing it a PITA.

Maybe my mistake was taking info from the 'official' gear oil thread in the Performance forum here.

Neil.

Fri Jul 06, 2018 9:54 pm

Vanagon Nut wrote: This doesn't really confirm much but in the safety data sheet PDF for this NAPA NPL 8310 product, I see the name "Ashland" which is (or was?) a name closely associated with Valvoline.

Neil.

So my original intent was to see if the NAPA 8310 oil I put in was the same as the High Performance Gear Oil 80W90 Valvoline 831. Even it it isn't, this link to what looks like Valvoline 831 mentions use in synchro and non synchro transmissions:

http://www.sanon-valvoline.com.hk/product.php?Id=75

Fri Jul 06, 2018 10:20 pm

Vanagon Nut wrote: http://www.sanon-valvoline.com.hk/product.php?Id=75

What the link is telling you to do is use one of these other oils in a synchromesh transmission.

Quote: In synchronized manual transmission applications use:
Valvoline Professional Series Manual Transmission Fluid or Valvoline Synchromesh Manual Transmission Fluid (available September 2012)

Sat Jul 07, 2018 10:38 am

Wildthings wrote: Vanagon Nut wrote: http://www.sanon-valvoline.com.hk/product.php?Id=75

What the link is telling you to do is use one of these other oils in a synchromesh transmission.

Quote: In synchronized manual transmission applications use:
Valvoline Professional Series Manual Transmission Fluid or Valvoline Synchromesh Manual Transmission Fluid (available September 2012)

Yes!

Since there's a lot of discussion about vv831 on the 'official gl4 gl5' thread here on the samba and since the label on the NAPA product I showed does not specifically say 'don't use on synchromesh transmissions' I wanted to find something in "print" that confirmed that.

Neil.

Sun Jul 08, 2018 1:15 pm

Wildthings wrote: Since it doesn't say or even imply that it is okay for use in synchronized transmissions and transaxles I would not use it.

So I drained the NAPA product and put in an affordable dino 80/90 that is

".... Recommended for use in differentials utilizing spiral, bevel, or hypoid gear sets, manual transmissions, power take off units, and final drives found on passenger cars, trucks, and off-highway vehicles used in construction, farm, forestry and mining operations.

Exceeds API GL-5/MT-1 requirements. "

The sales person said it was ok to use this oil in a manual transmission with synchromesh gears.

The transaxle doesn't seem to shift quite as well but its a very minor difference. It shifts ok. I'll be curious to see if it quells what may be a quiet bearing noise in neutral, when tranny is hotter than it would be if driven mostly on the freeway.

If the synchros that were installed at time of rebuild are moly coated, who knows? Maybe they'll last a relatively long time even if the EP additive has a higher sulphur content than some other oils. Lots of factors involved in that of course and since I have no realistic way of determining a given oil makers formula, in the realm of $7-25 CND oils, it seems like a crap shoot.

If I was running a 5 speed or Syncro, esepcially with a higher HP/torque engine, I'd obviously be a lot more particular about gear oil choice and use Swepco or whatever but if I change the oil every 2 years/20,000 miles, I can't see the tranny failing any time soon due to gear oil. If I got even another 100K miles out of it, I'd be happy with that.

Neil.

Sun Jul 08, 2018 1:56 pm

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I'll offer this bulletin once again, as the FIRST PARAGRAPH is just as pertinent today as it was in the '70s ..

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My suggestion: If the GL-5 you select yields unsatisfactory shifting, try another GL-5.

Sun Jul 08, 2018 2:06 pm

Thanks Gears.

I'd seen that article you posted in another thread and certainly considered what it said. Indeed "there's no free lunch" or "perfect world". ;) By "crap shoot" I didn't mean to speak ill of all oils in that price range but rather that, as you point to, and as I'm learning, there's pros and cons to (almost?) any oil used.

My immediate concern is that noisy bearing (I think) in the transmission. If it happens, it's a very quiet noise, but I'd rather try to address that first. IOW, if the Redline was thinning out at higher temps, maybe this oil won't and I'll run the potential "risk" of more difficult first several shifts in colder weather.

Neil.