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Sun May 13, 2018 8:08 pm

Fellas, new to the baja world. I'm building a 74 baja and would like a little more suspension travel in the rear. I plan on using a 3 rib trans. I see ads for 3x3 stuff, but seems like I've heard of 2x2, 2x3, ect, using stock bus parts, What parts are being used to do this?
I'm just trying to get a little more suspension travel and move the wheels back a little.
Thanks for any suggestions!
Craig

Mon May 14, 2018 5:33 am

Just bite the bullet and get the 3x3 kit with the 930 cv's, why do it twice? ...I know that you are trying to save money and try to use the bus axles but in the end your going to spend close to the same amount. ..on the plus side you will have a trusted well known combo that has been tested and you will be much happier you spent the extra money...now, if your not sure how long you plan to keep the baja then maybe that kind of investment isn't in your budget? ...just remember that you will also have to get a wider front beam...the other downside to the 3x3 kit is that your still limited on your travel cuz of the spring plates, those will need to be notched to get the some more travel over stock, I eliminated my torsion bars for a coil over setup for 14"s of travel in the rear with 3x3's...Figure in your budget about $500 per corner for coil overs, if you chose that route...it kind of really depends on how you plan to drive your baja off road.

You will get a lot of advice in here. ..many members with way more knowledge than me. ..they will ask you for the basics;
What is your budget?
What kind of off road driving do you plan to do?

You can easily spend a lot of money on a Baja suspension and for quality parts and service, most here will agree that Appletree Automotive is the best place to get suspension kits.

Good luck with your research and remember that the more travel means more money :lol:

Mon May 14, 2018 5:50 am

Quote: You will get a lot of advice in here. ..many members with way more knowledge than me.

...and a few posters claim more knowledge than they have.

more travel puts you into another league. American cars are over engineered. if an American car needs a 9/16" shaft that German car gets a 3/4" shaft. German car are engineered. If a German car needs a 9/16" shaft that German car gets a 9/16" shaft. if you make a major change on a VW you end up changing a dozen other things, like building a roll cage to attach the suspension to.

hobbyist street baja > wheelbarrow full of cash
long travel baja > pickup bed full of cash
race baja > dump truck full of cash and keep them coming.

Mon May 14, 2018 7:04 am

Thanks for the info fellas!
And yes, I'm trying to do it on the cheap. LOL I'm not new to VW's, been playing with them for 30 years, but I've never had a baja. And I totally understand about the snow ball effect.
I'm getting older and am after a softer ride. :lol: Of course it will be street driven but definitely see some off roads as well. I live in an area that's surrounded with mountains, so it will see old hunting trails and fire roads.
Thanks again for the info!

Mon May 14, 2018 9:38 am

https://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=2085466

Tue May 15, 2018 7:30 pm

Anyone know how much travel a stock IRS bug has?

Tue May 15, 2018 7:40 pm

craigman wrote: Anyone know how much travel a stock IRS bug has?

These Bilstein shocks have 5.36" of travel for an unmodified IRS rear suspension.

http://eshocks.com/bil_ORvh.asp?Series_Index=Q7&Length_Index=8Q5&Manf=All&SubChar=Q

I'm not sure exactly how much wheel travel that is.

Tue May 15, 2018 10:47 pm

and you can get 9 1/2 inches of travel in the back using all stock vw stuff from different years! then put a decent set of shocks on it(in stock location) and have a very capable trail ride ! and you won't have to cuts hole s in body or cage it if you don't want!
the below car was just a well built trail car- but it did have 9 3/4 travel at all four corners- the only non vw part was shocks..

Wed May 16, 2018 4:51 am

Cheap budget and 3x3 won’t work. The 3x3’s change the geometry of the whole deal.
1. Torsion bars won’t work with them. (Longer lever, needs stiffer bars)
2. You have to custom fab shock mounts
3. Coil overs or air shocks. $$$
4. CVS, axles, stubs, etc $$$

You could easily spend as much as the car is worth. And then you end up with a car that still doesn’t ride good because you didn’t do the front. 3X3 rear is totally pointless with a stock front end.

I’d would just put the empi high angle bus cv’s on it, you’ll need some short axles with the bus trans, some bus to bug, thing or 944 stubs, and notch your spring plates and reinforce the arms. That will get you 10” and that’s all you can possibly need With a stock front suspension.

Thu May 17, 2018 5:12 pm

SamT wrote: Cheap budget and 3x3 won’t work. The 3x3’s change the geometry of the whole deal.
1. Torsion bars won’t work with them. (Longer lever, needs stiffer bars)

Not trying to start an argument. But that statement is not even remotely close to accurate. My buddy has a 5x6 arms on his 4 seat buggy with long torsions. Close to 20" of rear travel. We've done a great deal of hard desert running with it. Mike DID break a torsion adjuster with it one time. Otherwise, it's been just fine.

SamT wrote:
2. You have to custom fab shock mounts

3. Coil overs or air, or other aftermarket shocks. $$$
4. CVS, axles, stubs, etc $$$

You could easily spend as much as the car is worth. And then you end up with a car that still doesn’t ride good because you didn’t do the front. 3X3 rear is totally pointless with a stock front end.

I’d would just put the empi high angle bus cv’s on it, you’ll need some short axles with the bus trans, some bus to bug, thing or 944 stubs, and notch your spring plates and reinforce the arms. That will get you 10” and that’s all you can possibly need With a stock front suspension.

Other than my above editing, I mostly agree with SamT's post above. I've seen a bunch of Bus 002 trans in Bug IRs with stock length arms with T2 inboard CVs, Bug axles with the CV stop flanges clearanced for the CV to slide and T1 outboard CVs. So I don't feel that aftermarket axles are entirely REQUIRED.

AND if you increase the trailing arm swing angle (for more wheel travel), longer shocks will deal with droop, but will then cause trouble for compression. So longer shocks will not necessarily allow more wheel travel.

Thu May 17, 2018 7:15 pm

dusty--Just asking.... if you add droop travel- doesn't that mean you have added travel? I gained 2 1/2"+ of droop travel buy notching- and adding type 4 cv's/axles and a 8" travel shock to a shock irs-- which yes only added droop- but still compressed to the stock bumps stops just like a stock irs would! so didn't I gain travel? and I used a longer shock?

Thu May 17, 2018 8:52 pm

race-desert wrote: dusty--Just asking.... if you add droop travel- doesn't that mean you have added travel? I gained 2 1/2"+ of droop travel buy notching- and adding type 4 cv's/axles and a 8" travel shock to a shock irs-- which yes only added droop- but still compressed to the stock bumps stops just like a stock irs would! so didn't I gain travel? and I used a longer shock?

This all brings on the question:
Have you cycled your suspension without torsions?

What is now stopping your down travel? The spring plate against the stop? Or the shock?

What is now stopping your up travel? The bump stop? The spring plate against the solid bump on the underside of the shock tower forging? Or the stock snubber (or stock replacement urethane)?

If the rubber or urethane snubber stops the suspension travel...Try removing the rubber piece and then see what stops your travel. Rubber snubbers can be compressed, that is their entire point. The rules for JeepSpeed racing limit the wheel travel. The rules specify that the suspension travel is to be measured steel of stop to steel of stop assuming that the rubber can be completely compressed on a hard enough bump.

And what are you mounting an 8" travel shock to? It's not gonna work on the stock mounts. It'll bottom that shock out in a HURRY that way. So I presume that you have changed the shock mounts to top of the trailing arm and onto the cage or other fabricated upper shock mounts. Then the travel may still be limited by the shocks. My discussion above ("AND if you increase the trailing arm swing angle (for more wheel travel), longer shocks will deal with droop, but will then cause trouble for compression. So longer shocks will not necessarily allow more wheel travel.") was in reference to installing longer shocks on the stock mounts. There are some vendors who offer a kit with T2/4 CVs with flanges and stub axles, and slightly longer shocks than stock. That's the sort of thing that I'm saying won't work out.

Thu May 17, 2018 9:08 pm

correction dusty on shock length it might of been the 6"(see pic above in my post).
and yes I built the whole deal around cycling the suspension with no torsions- yes I factored in a snubber squishing by have! yes the notch in spring plate is stoping the droop travel a way before shock tops out..that car was converted to irs- no differnt that a stock irs deal.. right..
that car got double spring plates type 4 cv's, drive flanges and axles. then longer shocks.. yes the up travel did not change at full bump stop- but i gained many inches in down trave(droop) - i guess my question is-- it is still travel gained?
this was a very typical class 11 set up I thought..when they had to use stock shock mounts..

Thu May 17, 2018 9:32 pm

cbeck wrote: https://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=2085466

I recently listed WTB ads for all of this stuff, except for shocks and was able to buy it all used OEM VW parts in good condition along with some dual spring plates for about $360.
I did purchase new drive flanges and CV bolts from kaddieshack, he offers about the best price on them.

I plan to add a set of stock + 1 trailing arms and call it a day.
Going on a near stock 71 baja for the same purpose.
Little more travel and utilize a 31x10.50 rear tire.

Thu May 17, 2018 9:58 pm

if "havsue joe" is still around he gets couplete 924 set ups and sells them(years ago). thats where I ended up after realizing empi type 4 cvs are really only type two cv's with far less angle(proven twice by two of us)! when I got real german type 4 stuff cv's,stubs/axles and all it was a big piece of mind ..
there is also a kyb white shock that fits this bill off a ford aero star van- if interested I will dig up that part number for you! but a good shock is well worth the money! I ran the FOA for $125 apiece...

Thu May 17, 2018 10:16 pm

race-desert wrote: if "havsue joe" is still around he gets couplete 924 set ups and sells them(years ago). thats where I ended up after realizing empi type 4 cvs are really only type two cv's with far less angle(proven twice by two of us)! when I got real german type 4 stuff cv's,stubs/axles and all it was a big piece of mind ..
there is also a kyb white shock that fits this bill off a ford aero star van- if interested I will dig up that part number for you! but a good shock is well worth the money! I ran the FOA for $125 apiece...

He is still around but didn't have a Porsche setup available when I was looking, about 2 months ago.
Can search his name in classifieds.
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/search.php...ton=Search

Fri May 18, 2018 6:11 am

You do have more travel than stock if you notched and gained droop But it is what USED to be a class 11 setup or Vintage 80's 5/1600 setup. You count hard stop to hard stop as travel. If you are running actual T4 Cv joints and have polished them you will get even more angularity out of them. So droop counts as does full compression.

That brings up the fact that Thing CV joints which are the same as T4 or 944 CV were used in a Thing torsion housing that has a different hard stop on the end casting/forging that allowed the Thing/T4 CV angularity to achieve more travel than a stock bug. In order to get full travel use of a T4 especially if you polish them, you really have no better solution than to fab new shock mounts just like Richard says and get it on top of the arm. With all the ways people try to get around that and keep trying to use the lower mount, it is just a whole lot easier to get max travel with a safety cushion and getting rid of that lower mount.

If you really don't want to move the shock position and get a longer one for the increased travel of a T4, just go C11 style all the way and buy the shocks with the upper shock mount put mid point on the long shock body so it still uses the stock torsion upper shock mount. I just think to do it right you can not avoid going through the fender well no matter how bad people want to not do that.

Fri May 18, 2018 7:01 pm

oldschool5er wrote: You do have more travel than stock if you notched and gained droop But it is what USED to be a class 11 setup or Vintage 80's 5/1600 setup. You count hard stop to hard stop as travel. If you are running actual T4 Cv joints and have polished them you will get even more angularity out of them. So droop counts as does full compression.

That brings up the fact that Thing CV joints which are the same as T4 or 944 CV were used in a Thing torsion housing that has a different hard stop on the end casting/forging that allowed the Thing/T4 CV angularity to achieve more travel than a stock bug. In order to get full travel use of a T4 especially if you polish them, you really have no better solution than to fab new shock mounts just like Richard says and get it on top of the arm. With all the ways people try to get around that and keep trying to use the lower mount, it is just a whole lot easier to get max travel with a safety cushion and getting rid of that lower mount.

If you really don't want to move the shock position and get a longer one for the increased travel of a T4, just go C11 style all the way and buy the shocks with the upper shock mount put mid point on the long shock body so it still uses the stock torsion upper shock mount. I just think to do it right you can not avoid going through the fender well no matter how bad people want to not do that.

Yup. What he ^ said. 8)

Yes. more travel is more travel. My doubt comes from so many people who say they've put longer shocks on the stock mounts and gotten more wheel travel.

Notched spring plates allow more droop. Yes indeed.

But as the extended length of a shock gets longer, so does the compressed length of the shock. It's simple physics and visible through common sense.

I dealt with a Toyota pre-run truck that the guy came to me complaining of a loud clunk in the back. One quick ride in the dirt near my home told me real quick there was something wrong. I crawled underneath and knew what it was. Some fool had put longer shocks on the back on the stock mounts. The longer shocks were bottoming out and restricting the rear wheel travel to about 3.5 - 4". Shock mounts were bent and the shocks were wrecked. The guy told me he had an offroad shop change the shocks. They told him the longer shocks would increase the travel. I repaired the mounts, put on stock length shocks and the ride was all of a sudden SO much better! Then it had 8" of travel. He wasn't willing to pay for fabrication to allow truly longer shocks to work. So I told him as long as that was the way it was going to be, then he wasn't going to get longer wheel travel.

Basically works the same on a Baja Bug.

The Class 11 race shocks with the upper mount on the side of the shock body DO allow more travel than stock length shock while mounted on the stock mounts. They aren't cheap. And think about where that extra shock body length above4 the stock upper mount is going to fit in.

Fri May 18, 2018 8:18 pm

debating--whelp something is getting lost in translation here then! this picture below is my car (that has since been sold) and it pulled 9 3/4 inches of rear travel from jacked off the ground wheel hanging on the droop stop to jack up to compression stop-measured at the stub axle on the outside -can we agree that is more than a stock irs - and it is using stock shock locations!?and this setup did not mess/limit the point which it compression stoped on top- yes the shock got much much closer to bottoming on itself but didn't-( I did go to bus snubber to try a protect it a tad more)! so alonger shock CAN fit in there and get you more travel with this setup...Again it was built cycling arms with no torsion to get cv limits/shocks with no nitrogen, limits set to the notch i made in spring plate! 3/4 a days worth!
I know both of your names are rich in off-road racing but so is my last name in the early Barstow years just like you guys! vw must of left some room on the table for compressed shock length on a stock irs! cause like you said it is a no brainer that the body does have to get longer if the shocktravel gets longer... but this setup does work hence my point that "longer shocks" and really the only thing I am contesting here, can get you more travel on stock irs done right!
now a side note-I then built these arms (pics below) outa a stock set of plated arms which I lowered the bottom shock mount a tad and brought the shock back a tad on bottom so it would clear the arm better at full droop- which with stock arm the shock get very close to hitting arm because arm is tucking back under at full droop- as you guys know I'm sure..
fyi- I wasn't talking about the side mount class 11 shocks..

these worked great....and gave the shock the added security of not bottoming on itself as noted above which was pretty close with stock arms...

Sat May 19, 2018 2:20 pm

Race dessert, i'm listening! LOL
which parts did you use? My idea of a 3x3. I like the idea of bolt on parts and less modifications.