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Wed Oct 18, 2017 4:28 pm

Yes, I know there is a thread all about the lowered beams, but maybe someone has come up with something new about these beams with avis adjusters....Why are they so difficult to adjust? I have a 70 bug I just got done installing the beam in with 2.5 dropped spindles also. I also installed lowered shocks and the special ball joints for the lowered beam. I think I got all the bases covered. I got 145/15's for the front put the wheels on and I drop the car. LOW... But a bit too low, more like slammed on the ground I thought so I wanted to lift it about 2 inches.. Up she goes,.. I get under, loosen the 2 nuts completely and leave the center screw alone. I tried to move the arms down a bit but hell.... they wouldn't move. Tried everything I can think of to move those arms.. I thought perhaps I might put the old shocks back to see if it raises it?... Any thoughts or suggestions please... need a little help here...

Wed Oct 18, 2017 9:17 pm

Sounds like your lowered (short) shocks are preventing the front suspension from extending when you lift the front. The shorter shocks are meant to be used when the beam adjusters are used to lower the front. But in your case you are using the 2.5" dropped spindles to give you the first 2.5" of drop. If you don't lower the front more than the 2.5" provided by the spindles then you need stock length shocks. If you drop the front down to 4" then you want to run the short shocks.

Lower the car to compress the suspension; remove the top shock nut on both sides; raise the front slowly and the front should drop further than before. You may need to loosen the grub screw a little so it is not pinching the spring.

Thu Oct 19, 2017 9:39 am

Thanks, I will try your suggestion and see what happens, but I'm getting conflicting opinions, its getting confusing... I try to post some pics also.....

Fri Oct 20, 2017 4:03 am

legotech7 wrote: Thanks, I will try your suggestion and see what happens, but I'm getting conflicting opinions, its getting confusing... I try to post some pics also.....
The issue is you are using two (2) methods to drop your front. Most people only use one.

When using 2.5" dropped spindles the stock range of motion is not changed. The spindle (which the wheels rotate on) is physically moved up relative to the ball joints resulting in the front of the car dropping by 2.5". The suspension has the same range of motion so the stock shocks can be retained.
The only downside is dropped spindles push the wheels out by 0.5" on each side. This tends to cause the tires to rub against the inside of the fenders. To fix this you need a narrowed front end or greater offset in your front wheels to tuck the tires deeper into the fenders.

The adjustable front end just changes the at rest height of your front suspension. For example, instead of your suspension sitting at a height that allows 40% of expansion (rise) and 60% of compression (lower)... using the front adjusters you lower the car and it now rests at 70% expansion and 30% compression. The % are percent range of motion.
Your stock shocks could be resting (nearly) fully compressed after you lowered the front using the adjusters, which is why you need shorter shocks when using adjusters to lower the front so the shocks rest at around the middle of its range of motion.
You also may need "lowered ball joints" for the same reason. The range of motion of the front end is limited by the ball joint range of motion. To give you a bit more range you need special ball joints.
In your case, if your are not using the front end adjusters to lower the front, you really don't need the shorter shocks or ball joints.

The only thing that may need to be adjusted for BOTH methods is front end "caster". Caster is the angle of the pivot points for the ball joints relevant to a line perpendicular line off the road. Normally the top ball joint is slightly behind the lower ball joint. It is a very small amount (3.33deg +/- 1deg). But when you lower the front or raise the rear you change this angle. To fix this, caster spacers are placed between the lower tube of the beam and the frame head.
Caster aids in centering the wheel from a turn and keeps the wheels centered while driving straight.

Fri Oct 20, 2017 3:46 pm

Thank you ashman40, But I think I mentioned in a previous post, what I have installed in my car. I'll repeat.. I have installed a 2 inch narrowed beam with the aves adjusters and the 2.5 dropped spindles,also mounted the shorty shocks and the special ball joints, because I know it was going to fairly low. And the caster shims behind the beam. Having done all that, when I dropped it, I decided I needed to raise it about 2 inches. Wasn't able to. It woundn't budge. Again, I know I'm missing something in translation here.... So having all of this in the car, is the issue the shocks, the beam or the spindles?... I know of a few folks with the same setup, and they are able to adjust theirs with out too much of a hassle... So what gives.. What am I missing... And again thanks for all the help...

Sat Oct 21, 2017 5:02 am

After you remove the top nut from the shocks does this allow your front end to rise some?

Is there still some range of adjustment left in the avis adjusters to raise the front?

Sat Oct 21, 2017 7:22 am

Yes there was. But as I tighten it all up and drop the front it still slammed to the ground...I took everything apart again last night with the the arms hanging, and loosened the adjusting nuts, except for the grub screw that hold the leaves in place. The arms swing up and down freely, nothing binding. I will button everything back up this morning. But this time I will adjust the beam so the arms swing all the way down, then put the spindles back on. I read somewhere here ,thats a member had to do to get it where He wanted it. My query might be if I should put back the shorty shocks, being adjusted at the aforementioned height, or use the longer shocks?... Guess I'll find out when I drop it. Also worried how it will ride after all this... It just seems to me, that it should be a lot easier to adjust these beams with out all this experimentation.

Sat Oct 21, 2017 8:45 am

Temporarily remove the shocks. They are not meant to control the rise height.
Adjust your front beam to the height you desire.
Measure the “at rest” (on the ground) distance between the two shock mount points (stud at the lower trailing arm and flange at upper end). Take the same measurement at the corresponding points on the shock in both its compressed state and extended state. You want the “at rest” state of the suspension to be some where in the middle of the shock travel, not near either limit.
For example, the distance between the “at rest” mount points is 18”. The mounting distance on the shocks ranges from 8” - 19”. This would tell me the shocks are too short. There is only about 1” of expansion available. Yes they can be mounted to “at rest” suspension, but as soon as you hit a bump and the suspension expands your shock will hit its max length and restrict the suspension travel with a thud. Over time the shock will fail.

You also mention NOT loosening the grub screw. Did you mean the exposed screw that extends out from the center. Did you install the avis adjusters or were they preinstalled on the beam? Some adjusters use a hidden grub screw to hold the center disc to the leaves. Note the hex grub screw in the disc used to clamp the leaves. You can’t see this once it is installed.

In such cases, the external hex screw is only a lever for adjustments and has no control over how tightly the disc is held to the leaves.

The center disc is also slotted with the exact cross section of the leaves so it cannot rotate in the disc. The grub screw prevents side to side movement. But with the trailing arms at both ends there is little chance the leaves will move much left/right. So even if the exposed screw is the grub screw which tightes to the leaves as long as you don’t remove it completely you are probably okay.

If the exposed screw is tight in the disc it could also be locking the disc to the inside of the tube. Note the split in the disc pictured above. When you tighten the exposed screw against the leaves it will expand the disc clamping it to the inside of the tube. Loosen the exposed screw and see if it loosens the disc to rotate freely in the tube.

Sat Oct 21, 2017 9:48 am

I'm almost done putting most of it together, but I will do as you suggested.If perhaps the new shocks are too short after measuring, should I put the old shocks back in?....I should mention after reading your post, that I tightened that center screw down tight. Should I have not done that?. Should I back it off a bit then tighten the locking nuts?.. I'm a bit confused there......

Sat Oct 21, 2017 10:46 am

legotech7 wrote: I'm almost done putting most of it together, but I will do as you suggested.If perhaps the new shocks are too short after measuring, should I put the old shocks back in?
Measure the old shocks. If they are a better fit then use them.
The short shocks I know of come from Opels. This means they were designed for a different car and just happen to fit when you lower the front. This means they aren't a perfect fit, just an acceptable fit. Once you start modifying things like ride height there are no definites anymore. You are looking for good fit.

legotech7 wrote: I should mention after reading your post, that I tightened that center screw down tight. Should I have not done that?. Should I back it off a bit then tighten the locking nuts?.. I'm a bit confused there......
Snug the screw into the disc. It is only aluminum so the metal is softer than the steel bolts, so not too tight. The steel nuts on the outside keep the toothed plates snug against each other and lock them together. The steel nuts on the bolt can be tightened a lot against each other to lock them in place. They can take it. I don't think I have ever heard of a torque spec for the nuts.

Sat Oct 21, 2017 12:49 pm

Ok, ashman40, I think I got it all set.. I measured the old shocks against the new ones and their only an inch and a half difference.. I did back off the center screw sightly and snugged the locking screw pretty well. While I was under there I managed to set the camber and toe in as close as I could get it by eye, until I can get it aligned. Put the new tires on ( 155/60/15 ) and let her drop. I think it sits a whole lot better. Low but not scraping. Hope it rides as well as it looks. Thanks for all the input. Hope this helps someone with the same issues...Got a say, it was a pain in the ass. Anyway, I think I'm good, now for the rear....I'll be back... LOL.......

Sat Oct 21, 2017 1:58 pm

So, since you got it working can you post some answers to the questions so the next person with this problem has something to work with...
Did you end up with the front at the 2.5” drop from the spindles, or did you go lower?
In the end, how did you get the adjusters loose so they would move?
What was the difference in fully extended and fully compressed length between the mounting points for the stock shock?
What was it for the short shock?
What was the measured distance between the shock mount points when you got the front to the desired height?

Sun Oct 22, 2017 12:19 pm

Let me try to add comments to your questions ashman40, In hopes it will help others...With all the effort I had to do for the drop I wanted to attain, I added another inch a half in addtion to the 2.5 form the spindles.

To get the adjusters to move, I had to raise the front, loosened the locking screws to make sure the racheting plate if you was loose also. Made sure the arms were able to move up or down. Since I wanted to raise the car a bit, I had to actually tap the arms at the ball joints points, just tapped them with little effort to get the arms down. Need to mention that I had to loosen the top screw of the shocks so they were fairly loose so they would move the needed allowance to get the arms to come down with ease. Got to where I thought they should be, with the center grub screw slightly loosened, then tightened the locking screws up against the ratcheting plate, fairly tight. Both upper and lower of the beam. Tightened everything up, and dropped the car. Bingo, I was happy with the height.

The difference between the shock mount points of both the lowered and stock shock was only about an inch and a half.. Not much, so I used the new lowered shock.

Haven't taken her out yet, so the ride quality is still in question, but I'll be sure to post when I do..As I mentioned before, I'll be lowering the rear soon and post the results when done.. Again thanks to all for your help and confidence in doing my little project.

Mon Oct 23, 2017 11:17 am

The good thing about lowering the rear is you reduce the need for the caster shims. If you lower the rear the same amount as the front then there is no change to the caster angle. Even if it is not the same, it could be enough so that you don’t need the shims. If you have the shims installed, you may need to rotate them a little to reduce the amount they space the tube away from the beam.

Mon Oct 23, 2017 11:58 am

I do have the shims installed in the front, but I'm only going to lower the rear 2 inches. Will I still need to remove the shims?.... Also while we're on the subject of the rear. Do you know what size tool is for the removal of the cv joints. I've seemed to have lost the one I had. The tool to remove the screws that attach the joint to the back of the backing plate?.. If that makes sense...

Tue Oct 24, 2017 7:31 am

legotech7 wrote: I do have the shims installed in the front, but I'm only going to lower the rear 2 inches. Will I still need to remove the shims?
The need for the shims increases as the difference in the front to rear ride height changes. For example, if you lowered the front by 3" and then lowered the rear by 3" there would be no difference in the caster and shims would not be needed.
If, on the other hand, you lowered the front 3" and only lowered the rear 2" then the change from stock would be a 1" lower front. This probably doesn't need shims, but if you installed the shims with the max caster offset (designed for 2.5" difference) it would likely be too much caster angle.
After you are done, take your car to get aligned and have them report the caster and see if it is within spec.

legotech7 wrote: Also while we're on the subject of the rear. Do you know what size tool is for the removal of the cv joints.
I think you mean this one:
http://www2.cip1.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=ACC-C10-7011

Wed Oct 25, 2017 9:44 am

Will do. Thanks....

Sun Oct 29, 2017 3:38 pm

Ok, I got the rear done. Two inner splines, I think it gave me about 3 inches. Might go back up a bit, but it looks good. But I have another question about the front beam. I hear a lot about preloading the leaves to help with a more comfortable ride.. Ok , so how do you go about preloading the beam?....First I've heard of it..... Ashman40, you seem to be the expert.. How to?....

Mon Oct 30, 2017 8:37 am

Definitely NOT an expert. But I will offer suggestions/advice where I can.

Is your front end narrowed? A narrowed front torsion spring makes it stiffer. Imagine a steel yard stick (3ft long for those outside the US). If you lock one end in a vice and try to twist the loose end you will be able to twist it relatively easily. When you release the end it springs back to normal. This simulates one of the front torsion springs.
Cut that same yard stick (same thickness of metal) into a 12inch segment and you will find that it is MUCH harder to twist the same amount. This is exactly what happens when you cut the front torsion leaves by 2" or more for a narrowed front beam. It becomes harder for the trailing arms to twist making for a rougher ride.

The best fix I have seen is to remove a section from a few of the leaves between the trailing arms and the center adjusters. This basically weakens/softens the springs. The ends and center need to maintain the same stack of springs (thickness) to fit below the grub screws. So the springs will be stock diameter at the ends under the grub screws; skinny between the ends and the center; and back to stock at the center under the grub screws.

The other way (that I was recently educated on :wink: ) is to adjust the top and bottom adjusters separately. For example, loosen the two front adjusters and raise the front until it is a bit higher than you want it to sit. Tighten one of the adjusters down to lock those torsion leaves in place. Lower the front of the car below where you want it (adding extra weight if needed) and then tighten the other adjuster. You have basically created a progressive spring rate for the front end. I've not tried this myself, so you will need to try it and see if it works for you.

Mon Oct 30, 2017 10:19 am

Thanks so much for the advise. Although I would have to read your post a few times, so I can visualize what you are trying to convey. I'm a work better with pictures kinda guy.... You say, Tighten one of the adjusters down to lock those torsion leaves in place. Now, looking at the beam, is the the top adjuster or the bottom you tighten first?.. I won't do this as I haven't road tested the car yet. As I mentioned before, I lowered the rear about 3 inches, I think it may be too low, so I have to make some time to do so, but I will post my results as soon as I can.

Thanks again ashman40, for the valuable information....