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Fri May 26, 2017 9:08 am

Morning guys. I'm giving consideration to investing in some valve equipment. I'm getting tired of sending heads out for work only to have the work come back marginal. I have experience in valve seat grinding on aircraft engines but that was 35 years ago. I am trying to decide whether to look for an old souix grinder with guides and stones or investing in one of these 3d cutting systems that are on the market. Not doing it for profit, I just want to keep my work in house. what do you vw gurus recommend?....Steve

Fri May 26, 2017 9:24 am

Fyi I do have a decent 9x42 mill available in my shop

Fri May 26, 2017 10:14 am

Since you have the mill already, I would not bother spending the money on a stone setup. I spent a bunch of money on stones, holders, pilots, etc. and it works OK to just kiss a seat for a stock overhaul, but you will end up frustrated trying to do any performance/precision stuff.

I ended up buying all my stuff from new3acut. They have great reviews on Speedtalk. It took me a while to get all the pieces. New3acut is also quite a bit cheaper then Sioux stuff, and works really good. http://new3acut.com/new3acut.html

I use the single blade stuff, not the 3 blade neway style. You could also get a kit like this. https://goodson.com/collections/3-d-fast-cut-valve-seat-cutting-system/products/3d-master-kits

Like all Goodson stuff, its a little spendy, but its all in one place. The new3a stuff is much more compact. I have 4 tool holders, 3 hex drivers and a few pilots for about the same price as the Goodson kit.

You will need to build yourself an angle plate and have some patients getting the pilot centered under the quill. I spin mine at 60rpm, and cut the seats dry. I must say, I can cut some pretty nice seats with my set up. They are just as nice or better then the local machine shop with his big serdi machine.

It will cost you around $700-1000 to get set up to do them, but really after 10 farmed out valve jobs, it will pay for itself. I have done about 20 with my set up so far, and I can do two heads in about 1 hour total. I can hold about .002" on the seat depths, and my seat run out is usually under .002" on quicky jobs.

I would send some pics of my seats, but I just bolted the heads on the other night, and I am not pulling them just for a picture. I can get you pics of the plate and tools if you would like.

Brian

Fri May 26, 2017 1:08 pm

I would love a pic of plate and tools. I've really been looking at these cutters. I've got some neway cutters I was going to give a try but before I invest in any more of these I want others opinions....steve

Fri May 26, 2017 1:15 pm

They sure got cheaper then Last time I looked.. 20 years ago https://www.google.com/search?q=valve+seat+cutter&...1440235111

Fri May 26, 2017 1:46 pm

You can try the neways, but I have never had good luck with them on anything other then a briggs and stratton.

All the cheap sets listed in the last link are all hand powered Neway style, more then likely made of a material similar to Nerf.

Its a big investment, but if you plan to do a more then a few heads, it is really nice to do them yourself.

After you get the seat cutter set up and dial in, get a flow bench and watch all your time go out the window. I have spent hours and hours on the bench trying different combos, experimenting, and getting confused. After a couple years, I have learned a ton, and I can make some pretty big improvements with minimal work on a set of heads.

I will get some pics in a bit.

Brian

Fri May 26, 2017 1:50 pm

Brian_e wrote: You can try the neways, but I have never had good luck with them on anything other then a briggs and stratton.

All the cheap sets listed in the last link are all hand powered Neway style, more then likely made of a material similar to Nerf.

Its a big investment, but if you plan to do a more then a few heads, it is really nice to do them yourself.

After you get the seat cutter set up and dial in, get a flow bench and watch all your time go out the window. I have spent hours and hours on the bench trying different combos, experimenting, and getting confused. After a couple years, I have learned a ton, and I can make some pretty big improvements with minimal work on a set of heads.

I will get some pics in a bit.

Brian
I took auto Machine and engine rebuild in the early 80s I loved doing valve work.. very enjoyable

Fri May 26, 2017 4:00 pm

Here is the angle plate I built. 3/8" plate, welded and then surfaced flat. It has pins in the bottom to line up with the ways on the mill table and keep it square. I have another just like it for Type 4 heads.

Here are the seat cutter tools, the hex driver for the collet, seat run-out gauge, some pilots, and a bounce spring.

These are the seat pocket tool I built for installing larger seats. I pull the seats out, bore the pockets larger within a few thousands, and then I put the new seats on the expanding mandrel and turn the OD to exactly what I want for a press fit. The other tool I made to set up the cutters and dial them in. There is also a carbide AV&V reamer in there. It is a must have for reaming the guides.

Pretty soon Tucker should be swinging by to tell me I am "doin it all wrong, cause that wont work on a small block mopar in a fishin' boat. He used to do them way different". Then NSR will probably mention my tools are no where near expensive enough or accurate enough, and only his tools will perform the job properly. :D

Brian

Fri May 26, 2017 4:22 pm

its not all about the tool.. a lot has to do with the feel the machinist has.. some have it.. most do not..

Fri May 26, 2017 4:41 pm

well.....I have the 3d ball system.... :shock: and I love it. but!!! I always stone the 45 afterwards with a super fine stone as blades do leave chatter marks even if you cant see them. I use the mondello/goodson blade wiyth I think 5 angles and 2 raidi.large radii in the bowel, it's fricken sweet!!!! I need to get the blade oput and order another one for a spare befor something happens and there NLA!!!. I use a 1mm seat width, yes thats .040 seat and with about 80 thousand miles on my 2028 it seems to be fine and usualy no lash adjustment required each year when I check them. I has a snappon valve grinder...old one I got....30+ years ago that had very little usage, it is my personal machine, not a shop use machine.. i have sioux seat equip. I love brians angle plate thats sweet.mine is ...less sweet looking,I have a hoe made plate for surfacing and a...hoe made seat&guide tilt&rotate fixture I use on my brideport..
the only thing I see I dont care for on brians pic is...he hasent made a ball fixture for the driving of the seat cutters/cutter holders. ( my 3d uses just one holder...for seat counter bore and seat cutting and bowel profiling&chamber profiling. It wood be nice to have a extra one so i could just set one for intake and one for zost. :shock: (theres one for the spelling teachers to piss and moan about) oh and the brand of 3d cutter system I have??? well...I better not say or nsr will say it's shit because it didnt cost $12356.39. :shock: yes I also noticed he can only afford the best, my birdport :shock: is shit...well they are all shit if you dont know how to use them.
I dont have the patience to make a plate as sweet as yours is. wish i did. I wish you lived next door :wink:

Fri May 26, 2017 4:43 pm

I do need to make a good setting fixture....I started to make one and one for heads serface too and....yup got far enough to get done what I needed to get done.

Fri May 26, 2017 6:15 pm

Brian_e wrote: I spent a bunch of money on stones, holders, pilots, etc. and it works OK to just kiss a seat for a stock overhaul, but you will end up frustrated trying to do any performance/precision stuff.

Brian
HA! IMO you just need a few hundred hours more practice. :P
i have used most machines/systems. Serdi, sunnen, torbin-arp, black and decker, sioux. None of the cutters can make a straighter valve seat than I can grind consistently. Many a soul has been driven mad trying to CUT a perfectly concentric seat, because there is so much to go wrong and end up at .004+ runout, for example, CB.......ahem, hasn't mastered it yet.

Actually, I've been thinking about buying some of the new3a stuff too, for boring seat pockets, roughing in seats.

best advice I have is build yourself a system that all uses the same pilots. It's possible to do it all with .375 top pilots. HHS AND carbide pilots. Buy steel tapered pilots so you have every size you will need, but get a carbide pilot for doing perfect NEW work.

Fri May 26, 2017 6:36 pm

Brian_e wrote:

Here are the seat cutter tools, the hex driver for the collet, seat run-out gauge, some pilots, and a bounce spring.

Pretty soon Tucker should be swinging by to tell me I am "doin it all wrong, cause that wont work on a small block mopar in a fishin' boat. He used to do them way different". Then NSR will probably mention my tools are no where near expensive enough or accurate enough, and only his tools will perform the job properly. :D

Brian
WOW those are killer little holders. Gotta get some for ME
Good stuff Brain!
Long as you check seat runout, vac test, angles match(good contact with prussian blue)......doesn't matter if you carved it with a dull beaver or a sharp one, good is good.

Fri May 26, 2017 6:53 pm

I think my biggest problem with the grinding was my tools. I was given a black and decker grinder and a few stone holders. I was chasing a few problems at a time with worn out holders. I figured I was better off spending similar money on a new seat cutter instead of a new grinder setup. I was getting better the more I did, but I bailed and went the cutter route.

Everything I have is for .375 pilots. I only have HSS pilots for now. I will add a carbide pretty soon. The new3a has been really good,but I don't have much experience with other brands.

Brian

Fri May 26, 2017 6:56 pm

Are they ball bearing stone holders?
I figured out several ways to rebuild them :D Want to sell?

Yeah, once worn too far... they work terrible. I pull the locks out and let them float free, on regular pilots. They thought if the middle didn't spin on the pilot it would not wear...but.....they thought wrong. They still wear.
ALSO, air driver WAY better. Even just a die grinder with a hex drive.
I tried using a vintage electric one, just a few times, OUTA CONTROL. :lol:

Fri May 26, 2017 8:54 pm

Outta control is the perfect description. 3million rpm, non stop chatter and vibration. I did use it on 3 or 4 stock valve heads, and they did seal up and run, but they were ugly and a little Wonky.

I was just in Denver for the vw show last weekend. I would have brought you the stone holders.

Brian

Fri May 26, 2017 9:06 pm

Nice thought. Like mark said, lots to do little time.
Jeez my spelling is terrible.....brains outa juice.
I'd like to rebuild all those old stone holders I can find, and get them back up to snuff, but it's low on the list you know.
Are you possibly going to the show at Bandimere Speedway?

BTW, Rocky makes an angle plate and they are for sale through ACN for 100$
Not terrible hard to make, but that's a very low price. You could spend half that on the material.

Fri May 26, 2017 9:12 pm

thanx for the input guys. I saw that new3acut offers a 5 blade cutter similar to neway. Is there an advantage to using the 5 sided as opposed to the one blade version that you have. Beautiful job on the plate

Fri May 26, 2017 9:29 pm

I don't know, basically he's the only one doing 3 angles with 5 blades, rather unique setup. Personally, I don't think that's a great idea.

The less force to cut=less deflection, most cases. Multi flute cutters, it is more balanced force, but it's not less force. May work great in some cases but worse in others.
The intake guides in these heads offers little support, half of it hangs in the port unsupported :shock:

Sat May 27, 2017 2:21 am

I love Sioux equipments and that is all I want. I like the precision of a grind setup. It is slow but that is just the way I like it.

Cutters are fine if they are new and the guides are really tight. But once they are worn or bent, then all you get are non-sealing seats. So you still have to touch-up w/ stone.

I like the finish of stone-grind. For valve grinders, I only like Sioux. And I have owned them all.