TheSamba.com :: View topic

Sat Apr 01, 2017 1:44 am

I have a1970 ex USA Beetle serial number 11026823924 with an engine marked 5550 B-467488. I understand that the “B” means 1600cc. I have yet to use it as I have been fixing the underside since I bought it. However, it was running OK at that time. I am now getting ready to fire it up again. I checked the static timing and it is set at 10° BTDC – the first of the 3 marks on the pulley, the other two I understand to be 7.5° and 0°. On this forum I have seen that B code engines should be set at TDC (0°), but one of my manuals (both Haynes) says 7.5° and my other manual says “check data for your model”. Where you check this data I do not know.

Does any one on here know the correct static setting for my engine?

Sat Apr 01, 2017 2:51 am

First of all, that's a NON-VW remanufactured engine, done by Vege Motoren in the Netherlands.

Second, the engine code matters zilch as to timing. What distributor you're using is the key. That is what does the advancing (along with a properly matched carburetor if it's got vacuum advance) so that's the question - what distributor do you have? The stock vacuum-only 113905205T distributor used in 1970, if you happen to have it, would be set statically to 0 TDC.

Sat Apr 01, 2017 3:02 am

What your timing should be set to really depends on the distributor you are running, instead of the model year or engine.

Yes, typically 1970 models used a B case which was a 1600 single port, matched to a Bosch 113-905-205T distributor which was an SVA (vacuum advance only, no mechanical advance on the distributor.) And yes these distributors were timed at 0 TDC. But this does not mean that you should automatically set your timing that way- we need to know the distributor model before we can confirm what timing is supposed to be set to.

By the way, your VIN number seems to have one extra digit too many (at least for a USA model). Also B engine cases typically began with "B6," and the last B case number (according to this site) was B6 440 900, so a bit of a question there as well.

EDIT- thanks Glutamodo!

Sun Apr 02, 2017 8:23 am

Andy and sb001,

Thanks for your replies. This is what is written on my distributor:

Z43
0231 168005
021 905 2051 - not 100° sure about the last digit, can't read my own writing!

Mr carb is Solex 31PICT-3. The vacuum advance from the carb is connected and works when I suck on it. The other pipe from the vacuum unit is blocked off. It looks to me if it used to go to that device on the left of the engine whose other hose goes into the air/fuel intake. The first hose on this device is also blocked off. Is this part of the USA export modifications?

I checked the timing again and it is set at 10° BTDC. I fired it up for the first time in 7 months and it seemed to run OK, but I did not take it out of the garage.

My VIn does indeed have a digit too many. somehow and extra "2" was put in between the 8 and the 9 during the French registration process.

What do you think of all this?

Regards,

Don

Sun Apr 02, 2017 9:53 am

It should be set at 0 TDC with a 205T.

Sun Apr 02, 2017 10:53 am

Frodge,

Just this minute I have been browsing Oldvolkshome's website and they say my distributor's application is late Bus 76-78 and Federal Bus 1979, so now I am more confused as to what I have got on this engine, except it seems to work!

Pardon my ignorance, but what is a 250T?

Sun Apr 02, 2017 11:27 am

From Old Volks Home,
Distributor: VW 113-905-205T, Bosch 0231 137 036
Can Use:
Points: 01 013
Points Replacement Plate Assy: VW 111-905-227B, Bosch 1237 110 139
Condensor: 02 007 Note: If equipped w/AC use 02 069
Rotor: 04 033
Cap: 03 010
Parts Kit (Shims, Washers & Hardware): 059-998-211, Bosch 1237 010 007
Coil: 00 015 (Blue Coil: 00 012)
Vacuum Can: 07 024
Ignition Wires: 09 001
Spark Plug: W8AC
Timing Set At:: 0deg TDC @ 800-950rpm w/strobe w/vacuum hose disconnected and plugged
Advance/Retard Range: Vacuum (Advance Only): 17-19deg @ 1.3 In. Hg, 32-35deg @ 3.2 In. Hg

Sun Apr 02, 2017 3:35 pm

It looks like old folks home edited all the distributor specs. the 205t can be timed statically with no issue. It used to say so on that page, and is a well known fact that it can be done. Says so I'm vw manuals as well.

Sun Apr 02, 2017 3:35 pm

Yet another time where OVH is slightly off, as the VAST MAJORITY of 113905205Ts have a Bosch number of 0231137035. It's stuff like that, which made me use my own experience and stack of reference materials to come up with my own sets of charts a long time ago.

Anyway, yeah that is a late Bus SVDA distributor, but fortunately for you, all of the 31PICT-3 series (which is a non-USA 1300 dual port carburetor, by the way) are set up for DVDA or SVDA and not vac-only for the vacuum advance port, so you should at least get a halfway decent vacuum signal from it. (if you let me know the modification state number of the carburetor, which is on the bottom base flange, left side, I might be able to determine the factory intended matching distributor)

Mon Apr 03, 2017 10:35 am

Andy T and others,

I have now deciphered my writing and I have a VW 021 905 205 P (Bosch 0231 168 005). Also, it looks from the various comments that I have a mixture of non original parts in the engine compartment.

This is what OVH says about my distributor:

Note: This Distributor also fits Type 4 (412) 1974
Distributor: VW 021-905-205P, Bosch 0231 168 005 > 022-905-205S, 0231 170 093
Note: 0231 170 093 dist primarily used on California Late 1976-1978 and all Federal 1979 Models
Can Use:
Points: 01 011
Condensor: 02 074
Rotor: 04 033
Note: 0231 168 005 dist originally equipped with Speed Limiting Rotor 04 016 (5400rpm)
Dust Cover: 039-905-241, Bosch 1230 500 139 > 1230 500 147
Cap: 03 010
Distributor Cap Clip: 034-905-265, Bosch 1231 251 033
Parts Kit (Shims, Washers & Hardware): 059-998-211, Bosch 1237 010 007
Coil: 00 012
Vacuum Can: 07 060
Ignition Wires: 09 171
Spark Plug: W8CC
Timing Set At:: 7.5deg BTDC @ 850-950 rpm (Man Trans), 900-1000 rpm (Auto Trans) w/strobe, vacuum hose connected
Advance/Retard Range: Vacuum: 8.5-11deg Adv @ 7.9 In. Hg; Centrifugal: 8-13deg @ 1600 rpm, 20.5-24.5 @ 3400 rpm

So, I assume that I should set the dynamic timing as above.

Andy, this is what is stamped on the carb lower flange:
VW 360 2

I was in touch last year with the last owner in USA (Connecticut) who had it for 10 years and he told me that he rebuilt the engine. I will contact him again to see if what is in there is what he rebuilt. He told me that he donated the car to the Salvation Army and got Income tax relief for that gesture. I have documents showing that the car was subsequently sold at auction in 2008 in Hartford to a dealer of some sort for $2500. I Googled this name and discovered that they had 4 separate addresses in Connecticut – all of them false! Lots of folks were looking for them after paying for cars that were never supplied. Somehow the car ended up in England at another dubious garage where the body work was restored. I don’t know if they touched the mechanicals. I would not think that it would be worthwhile shipping a fairly rotten Beetle across the Atlantic, fixing the rot and then selling it on, but that is what happened. A friend of mine down here in France bought it in 2012 and drove it down here and I bought it from him last year and other than a test drive of a few miles, so far I have since driven it about 100 yards! But it is now ready for the road.
It has had an interesting life in its later years.
Sorry for the longish post.

Mon Apr 03, 2017 12:01 pm

Interesting that someone installed a fuel injected distributor into a carb'd bug. If you want to run it and it runs ok, I'd follow the 7.5BDC. Then, remove and plug the vacuum line to the vacuum can and rev the engine up until the distributor stops advancing with a timing light hooked up. I'd make sure it's not advancing past 30* with all mechanical advance in, though some suggest 28-32*.

Mon Apr 03, 2017 4:07 pm

Donmax wrote:

Andy, this is what is stamped on the carb lower flange:
VW 360 2

Cool. Originally, as I said before that was on a 1300 twin port (DP) Non-USA engine, and that modification state base flange number was matched to the 0231146101 / 113905205AL distributor.

Mon Apr 03, 2017 7:33 pm

Is there a reference page for timing?

I wasn't aware a distributor made a difference.

I have 1600's with pertronix 009. It should be 7.5 BTDC ?

Mon Apr 03, 2017 8:05 pm

kawfee wrote: Is there a reference page for timing?

I wasn't aware a distributor made a difference.

I have 1600's with pertronix 009. It should be 7.5 BTDC ?

Well there's the Old Volks Home page, and the Bosch tuneup chart page here:

https://www.thesamba.com/vw/search.php?q=bosch%20tuneup%20chart

There are some descrepancies between them though- for example the Old Volks Home page lists one distributor (113-905-205AA) for 1969 1500 autostick, and then the AD/AE distributor for 1970 autostick, where the Bosch tuneup chart lists AA for 69-70, AB for 69, and AC for 70! (I have never seen an AB or AC distributor for sale but I guess they exist.)

None of this is relevant to your 009 distributor though, the way to correctly time an 009 distributor is at 30 degrees BTDC all-in (making a 30 BTDC mark on your pulley, then pulling the throttle to where the crank pulley cannot spin around any further and setting the timing at the 30 BTDC mark.) This will be loud and annoy your neighbors. Then you just let idle timing fall where it may.

Mon Apr 03, 2017 8:13 pm

sb001 wrote: then pulling the throttle to where the crank pulley cannot spin around any further and setting the timing at the 30 BTDC mark

Could you explain that a bit further? I assume I can mark 30 degrees BTDC and use a timing light.

Mon Apr 03, 2017 8:51 pm

kawfee wrote: sb001 wrote: then pulling the throttle to where the crank pulley cannot spin around any further and setting the timing at the 30 BTDC mark

Could you explain that a bit further? I assume I can mark 30 degrees BTDC and use a timing light.

Here is a good writeup on why you time the 009 this way:

Timing the Bosch OO9
by Ken Hooper

The thing about timing is that what matters most is what happens at cruising speed, maximum advance--that's where you can burn up an engine quickly if your timing is too far advanced.

But: The Bosch 009 does not have a predictable advance curve--the German ones are different from the Brazilian ones and the worn ones are different from the new ones and on it goes. The natural result of this is that just because you've timed the 009 properly at idle does not mean you have any way of knowing what's going on at highway speeds.

So while the stock vacuum advance distributors can safely be timed at idle (or even timed statically per Muir, although this is never optimal), the 009 has GOT to be timed to about 30 degrees TOTAL ADVANCE with a timing light. Which means you have to rev it up until the distributor stops advancing before you can dial it in.

It takes three hands and if the process isn't painful, you aren't doing it right. =^ ) It's okay to time it statically at around zero degrees in order to get the engine started, but you have to finish the process dynamically by making lotsa noise.

It is very easy to find 30 degrees without a degree wheel as long as you know where top dead center is. From TDC, measure an inch and three quarters (1 3/4") to the right around the diameter of a stock pulley. That's about 28 degrees, go a tinch further and mark it with fingernail polish or something.

So after making this mark, start the car, let the engine warm up, then pull the throttle arm on the carb until the crank pulley just cannot go around anymore--this is maximum advance for the distributor. It will rev high and be loud and someone will call the cops on you. While you are revving the engine this high, you need to adjust the distributor to where the 30 BTDC mark you made lines up with the case seam. (This is why the above writeup says you need three hands--one to pull the throttle arm, one to operate the timing light, and one to adjust the distributor.) Just take turns between moving the distributor and operating the timing light until you have the 30 BTDC mark lined up with the case seam.

After you have the 30 BTDC mark lined up with the case seam, release the throttle arm and let the engine fall back to idle. Then check with your timing light where timing is at idle- it's typically around 7.5-10 BTDC, but you might be surprised at where it falls. Point is, it doesn't matter where idle timing is on the 009, what matters is that it is at 30 BTDC when the distributor is giving everything its got (maximum advance.) You don't want to exceed 30 BTDC at this point or you could burn up the engine. So rev it back up all the way a few times and check to be sure you are at 30 BTDC before you are hauled off to jail.

Mon Apr 03, 2017 8:56 pm

Wow, I never thought revving an engine like that would be good for it. Thanks.

Mon Apr 03, 2017 9:04 pm

kawfee wrote: Wow, I never thought revving an engine like that would be good for it. Thanks.

It's not.

That's why you want to do it as little as possible. You do it once just as long as it takes to set the timing, then do it a couple more quick times to make sure timing is consistent. Then don't do it ever again.

Tue Apr 04, 2017 12:08 am

kawfee wrote: Wow, I never thought revving an engine like that would be good for it. Thanks.

Wellllllllll it depends on who you talk to. Most, if not all, 009 distributors max out their advance around 3,200 to 3,400 RPM. Volkswagen Autowerk of Wolfsburg, Germany, circa 1970, says our engines are fine to cruise all day at 3,800-3,900 on the Type 1 cars, (4,000 on the T1 doghouse buses!) Occasional shifts up to 4,100 RPM (4,600 RPM on the doghouse bus!) are permitted according to the owners manual.

Of course these speeds are under load, so don't hold the engine there in neutral gawking at your timing light with a cold engine, m'kay? Cold oil pressure is high, like duh… Rev it, check it, and drive it.

Tue Apr 04, 2017 4:44 am

Well, yeah, but don't forget to do the timing with the engine warmed up, so you have to first set it at 0 TDC to go and do the warm up, and I find you have to drive it around a bit to get it properly warmed up to time with the strobe abd get the advance right.