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Wed Jan 25, 2017 7:03 pm

Saw a really cool video on youtube. I really enjoy watching Jay Leno's Garage. I probably seen every episode. The episode with Emory motorsports and their outlaw Porsches was one of my favorites. The fact that a 4 cylinder 911 motor which was never built by Porsche was very interesting. Obviously me being a Herbie, Porsche and beetle fan, quickly thought if that engine was to go into a Beetle it would be a beast. I did some research on it and it is very expensive. Depending on spec it is around 30k. Crazy money for just an engine buy hey its free to dream. If I had Mr. Leno's money, I would call Mr Polo to build me one of these motors and Mr Gary Berg for a 5 speed box. Must be nice to be rich........
Here is the video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jwln2ji-yOE
Here is also a cool video of Jay Leno's garage with a beetle
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GO2dpG96-2g

Wed Jan 25, 2017 7:30 pm

stallion777 wrote: Saw a really cool video on youtube. I really enjoy watching Jay Leno's Garage. I probably seen every episode. The episode with Emory motorsports and their outlaw Porsches was one of my favorites. The fact that a 4 cylinder 911 motor which was never built by Porsche was very interesting. Obviously me being a Herbie, Porsche and beetle fan, quickly thought if that engine was to go into a Beetle it would be a beast. I did some research on it and it is very expensive. Depending on spec it is around 30k. Crazy money for just an engine buy hey its free to dream. If I had Mr. Leno's money, I would call Mr Polo to build me one of these motors and Mr Gary Berg for a 5 speed box. Must be nice to be rich........
Here is the video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jwln2ji-yOE
Here is also a cool video of Jay Leno's garage with a beetle
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GO2dpG96-2g

Nothing too special....the silver one....both cool cars by the way.....a 2.6L type 4 with webbers and a pertronix. Should run well.....unless it has a better coil too (would assume so) ...it could run better. It its all done right.....it should put out plenty of hp for that light of a car. Probably in the 150-170 hp range.

The black one sounds and is cool....but for 185hp.....at 2.5L.....with twin plugs.....even without the overhead cam that 185hp can be done with a type 4...for less money....and less rare parts.
Call Jake Raby....he builds engines like that all the time.

But it is cool! Ray

Wed Jan 25, 2017 8:40 pm

Having been to the shop and having a few friends that have worked there, I would say while the FAT performance motor may be nothing special, the cut down 6's are very cool. Just my opinion

Wed Jan 25, 2017 10:41 pm

Jay Leno has an estimated net worth of $350 million, and his car collection is worth about $50 Million.
My friend lives in La Tuna Canyon so all the roads where you see Jay driving most of his cars from the youtube videos are really familiar to me.
Having that kind of money is interesting because he can pay for development work from big name shops for modifications for odd ball cars.

Wed Jan 25, 2017 10:50 pm

Why dream of a 185hp cut down Porsche engine that costs $30,000?

Build your own 200 hp Type 1 Volkswagen that costs 5 times less and goes faster too. Thats a real "Beast".

Thu Jan 26, 2017 8:18 am

jpaull wrote: Why dream of a 185hp cut down Porsche engine that costs $30,000?

Build your own 200 hp Type 1 Volkswagen that costs 5 times less and goes faster too. Thats a real "Beast".

If you build your iwn engines....and do it well.....you can build a type 4 the same way. Still more than a type 1......but maybe 4X less than the $30k that cut down 6 costs. Ray

Thu Jan 26, 2017 11:05 am

HI Stallion 777 - I totally agree with Ray. I have been selling THE TYPE IV UPRIGHT CONVERSION MANUAL since 1990 to guys building Type IV Engines over 200Hp for Early Porsches and it was not just for the HP. In the beginning it was for the European and Australian Market , were Power, Longevity and sustaining High Speeds for long periods of time without fear of overheating or blowing the engine. Slowly the U.S. Porsche and VW guys got the word and it is now quite common.

The fact that pushing a T-1 enigne to over 200 hp when it’s max hp design was for 60 hp 1600 cc , especially with it’s soft magnesium case and expect it to have the reliability of a stock daily driver is wishful thinking. To many variables and the big one is you need a master mechanic with the ability to design and build that engine.

Verses using a T-4 that has a bulletproof bottom end, made out of Strong Aluminum. Few guys know Porsche used the T-4 engines in it’s 912 E !!! Cars not T-1. Twice the HP Stock of the T-1. Also found in the Porsche 914 411 412 and due to it’s torque was used to push the much heavier 72 and later two ton Buses . In a light car like a 356 or a bug the T-4 is hardly working, you can expect the standard life span of a 914 that weights hundreds of pounds more then 356 or bug --well over 120,000 miles before a rebuild.

The Cali Style uses a T-1 fanhousing so it looks stock in 356’s like a Beetle. The beauty is the T-4 comes in and out faster than the original engine without any body cutting. There are Porsche Kits with the Round Intake and blades. Or you can get the best fan housing for an engine of that hp, The DTM from Jake Raby. Down The Middle.

Cali Style are in engines over 200 hp and never heard a problem and with the manual if you have some skills can make the fanhousing your self with some old stock T-1 and T-4 parts. Or buy some like maybe the Crank Pulley and Alt Stand. Even if you had to buy all the parts for the fanhousing it would be in the $250 cost range.

Cost of building either the T-1 or T-4 will be expensive but I believe seeing all the T-4 cases are the same some were 2.0 stock. So you are already starting 2.0 vs 1.6.

There is enough info on YOUTUBE to back up what I said. T-1 engines of over 200 hp are usually for drag racing and have short life.

Video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=deD2JxpUA48

Thu Jan 26, 2017 11:44 am

my 356 will have 2393cc,and valves angled like the 356 had...well sort of im angling both intake and exhaust valves and using autocraft 910 heads to do so. as far as 200 hp and not lasting thats the crapy builder's fault not the engines.

Thu Jan 26, 2017 1:02 pm

Mark -- I agree about Crappy engine Builders in either the T-4 or T-1

If you said to a good engine builder "make me a 600 hp Chevy engine for my Corvette". He would not even think about taking a Small block 283. He would go Big Block. Much less work and a stronger foundation.

The T-4 is the Big Block of air-cooled VW engines.

Thu Jan 26, 2017 1:45 pm

I think the hacked 911 engine is built mainly "just because you can" and to stand out from the crowd. Sort of in the same way as hacked off V8´s for the midget race.
I agree, for a 200 hp engine I would not even think in those lines. A well built type 4 will do that any day, and last a long time.
Other people may think different, but IMHO the 616 based engine (The 356C) will handle up to about 150 hp for "daily" use. Meaning that it will still be durable, versatile a joy to drive on mountan roads, go with ease on the autobahn and also be a grocery getter. Sure, you can pull 200 hp with that one as a base too, but then it ain´t that nice on the street anymore.
WRT FAT engines. Having dynoéd and driven a few through the years I would say that if you look at peak hp alone they do not win many thophies. If you on the other hand look at how they drive, how much usable torque they pull and how they perform over time it will show a completely different picture.

T

Thu Jan 26, 2017 2:40 pm

Alstrup wrote: I think the hacked 911 engine is built mainly "just because you can" and to stand out from the crowd. Sort of in the same way as hacked off V8´s for the midget race.
I agree, for a 200 hp engine I would not even think in those lines. A well built type 4 will do that any day, and last a long time.
Other people may think different, but IMHO the 616 based engine (The 356C) will handle up to about 150 hp for "daily" use. Meaning that it will still be durable, versatile a joy to drive on mountan roads, go with ease on the autobahn and also be a grocery getter. Sure, you can pull 200 hp with that one as a base too, but then it ain´t that nice on the street anymore.
WRT FAT engines. Having dynoéd and driven a few through the years I would say that if you look at peak hp alone they do not win many thophies. If you on the other hand look at how they drive, how much usable torque they pull and how they perform over time it will show a completely different picture.

T

Yes....and I would also expect...that from the dates they were speaking of when the "Poirsche" 4 cylinder was originally thought about by the Porsche engineer.....1962...the type 4 was not yet a reality.

When the Chuck Beck creation he spoke of in the 80's...the "hacked" 6 cylinder was made....outside of the factory 914 2.0L ...there was at that point not that much more at all in the aftermarket pipelines for high performance type 4 (along the lines of drop in exhaust changes, better heads, better cams)...outside of a few serious 914 racing companies.

I can saw wanting the 911 6 combustion chambers, the canted valves, plug angles, worked out piston designs and overhead cams of the Porsche 6 cylinder.....but to go through the trouble of slicing an engine, welding and machining...then having custom cranks and cams made...just to get 185-200 hp....when non- factory racing efforts with the stock 914 2.0L then on the market...able to get that much with serious massaging (to include twin plugs/dual distributor, headers and slide valve injection) and less complexity......I agree. Much of this was done just to say it was being done.

Some of the plug and inlet angle and cooling capability of the 911 was incorporated into the 2.0L 914 head design...though not the exhaust exit.

I would say that "probably"...guessing...they may have gotten a much higher and more free revving engine in that hacked 6 cylinder...but not much more HP and torque than you could have if you invested the same amount of effort or less in the type 4 engine from a 914.

I say that...because welding difficulty aside....they were willing to have a custom crank and cam made for a unique 4 cylinder. If you are willing to pay that kind of money and effort...imagine what you could have bought from someone like Webcam with that kind of cash in the 80's.

But I must say...they are very nice looking cars!
Ray

Thu Jan 26, 2017 3:57 pm

I must ask WTF you guys are talking about? Hacked engine? cut down 6?

are you talking about the same thing? the POLO 4cyl 911 is completely new from the ground up with it's own case, it's own crank, it's own cams, etc. No one cut anything. It's a completely new engine from Dean Polopolus. It's not a cut down 6

LOL WOW

Thu Jan 26, 2017 4:46 pm

Erik G wrote: I must ask WTF you guys are talking about? Hacked engine? cut down 6?

are you talking about the same thing? the POLO 4cyl 911 is completely new from the ground up with it's own case, it's own crank, it's own cams, etc. No one cut anything. It's a completely new engine from Dean Polopolus. It's not a cut down 6

LOL WOW

No.....no WOW necessary ....at all..... :wink:

Yes....we know that. Or at least I know I do.

That was explained in the video....caught it the first time...and had already heard of the engine before.

And....as a misnomer I simply continue to call it "the cut down 6"......because its BASED on the original cut down and welded six made in the 80s.

Yes....being a new casting its a little more advanced and will last a lost longer and be easier to build than the original concept cut down six.......its still not any cheaper than the original design that it was based on.....and does not produce any more HP or torque (at least in the version in the car in the video)......than the hacked 6 it was based on.

$30K for an aircooled, flat 4 producing only 185 hp?
While producing HP is not as simple as some think because as things get bigger....EVERYTHING must be re-engineered to some extent......the price tag is unnecessary for the output level.....unless you are just looking to say you have a unique engine.

Ray

EDIT......here is where the WOW should come in.......I had seen the "Polo" motor site a while back http://www.polomotor.com
Somehow I just missed or did not mentally assign.....that this was the product of Dean Polopolis....whose original was one of the chopped and welded 6s back in the 80s.

In my comments in this thread I am not putting this engine down. I am putting down its $30k price tag.....if what you are looking for is simply the output it produces for a street/road car.

The key to most of the $30k cost......is the materials and heat treating.....and very limited production.
I would agree though....if you needed that 185-200 hp and 180 ft lbs of torque.....as they mentioned to go into something like a Porsche 904 to do endurance racing......this would be the way to go. Otherwise.....I can get that output with normal 100k lifespan for the street....albeit still expensive in the 10k range....with a type 4.

By the way.....the guy talking to Jay Leno is full of it. Porsche did make a 4 cylinder engine........it went into the Porsche 904......in 1964.

It was 1.96L (type 587/3) and had four overhead cams and put out 180 hp in that displacement...and 185 in the 1500cc version. Listed as the most complex and expensive four cylinder ever built.....precisely why these guys wanted a replacement for it.

Thu Jan 26, 2017 5:18 pm

Off the point but I have to say... If the type 4 was so good, it's successor (the waterboxer) would have more in common with it than the type 1.
That isn't the case.

The 911-4 is only comparable in cylinders and layout to a VW engine. Outside of that it is apples vs oranges. Power output aside, it has many advantages. Is it worth the cost? To some, perhaps. I think it's cool that someone made it an option.

Thu Jan 26, 2017 5:46 pm

It's absolutely the cool factor. Who cares what it cost.

If cost and hp is the question, LS1 swap like I said

Thu Jan 26, 2017 6:51 pm

GTV the reason the T-1 and the T-4 are not around, is because they are both air cooled and they could not meet emissions. As for the waterboxer it is still around, it is called a Subaru!!!!!

To be totally honest even a T-4 or Waterboxer was a joke in a Two Ton Camper Bus, first putting a T-1 in was beyond a joke. Buses should have had at least a 150 hp 6 cylinder engine. WTF were the Germans thinking.

Thu Jan 26, 2017 7:17 pm

nextgen wrote: GTV the reason the T-1 and the T-4 are not around, is because they are both air cooled and they could not meet emissions. As for the waterboxer it is still around, it is called a Subaru!!!!!

You completely missed the point.

Thu Jan 26, 2017 8:17 pm

Speaking of obscure engines. Do any of you Type IV freaks remember when Oettinger made a 6 cylinder Type IV. there was a spread on it in one of the magazines in the 80's. I don't remember if it was a prototype or they did a short production run. It was really impressive and very expensive...

Thu Jan 26, 2017 8:49 pm

Erik G wrote: It's absolutely the cool factor. Who cares what it cost.

If cost and hp is the question, LS1 swap like I said

Totally agree on that fact. If cash is no issue....and you dont care what it cost....why not? It is a really cool engine. I guess....when one is putting an engine into what is not your average rezto-custo 356, Beck spyder or the like......an engine at this level of "special" would be part of the worthy investment.

Ray

Thu Jan 26, 2017 9:05 pm

Hey guys I've recently started looking at type 4 motors and down the road may be interested in one. A while back a had a beetle which was highly modded and I dropped thousands in it. I was younger and bought many things mainly for the looks and if the price was good. That car was sold and regretted selling it. One huge mistake I made with that car was the engine. I bought a 2332cc turnkey motor with Porsche fan, 44 dual carbs. The motor looked awesome and sounded great. At first the motor seemed great and seemed reliable. After many miles at was CRAP. It leaked oil all over the place, overheated, blew oil lines, rough starting and for the size was not impressive with power or acceleration. According to the build sheet it was about 130hp but didn't feel like it but sounded the part. Worst experience I ever had with a car and customer service with the seller was worst. Nice guy when he wants to sell but after i sold its all your problem. My current beetle now has a 1650 single carb single port which is fine for now but when I pay off some bills and save money up, I'll would want more power. I want about 200hp and BE RELIABLE. This motor caught my eye because it looks and sounds exotic, is still German design, still aircooled and easy to install and claims Porsche reliability. I love the Subaru engine idea but car would need a lot of mods and cutting to work. My car is a 1963 swing axle beetle. 30 grand is insane for just motor but if you got money to kill then its cool I guess but I'm not rich. My old motor was a type 1 and the bad experience makes me hesitant for another type 1. But I can say the motor was CRAP and at the time I did not do as much research as I do now or I would have never bought a motor from that company. Bernie Bergman was the engine builder..............