TheSamba.com :: View topic

Sat Aug 27, 2016 9:20 am

Hi all,
First off, It is NOT my intent to slander Subarugears in any way whatsoever. I have purchased a 4.44 R+P from them and can't wait to start using it in my 5 Speed Subaru box.
I recently heard from a trusted friend of a 4.11 Subarugears built 5 speed transmission that suffered a Ring and Pinion failure. The owner of the vehicle purchased a new Ring an pinion form Subarugears that is of a "different design" and is rebuilding the box locally.
My question is: have you guys heard of other Ring and Pinion failures from Subarugears? My hope is that this is a one off weird situation and that Subarugears didn't have batch or period of time where they were experiencing metallurgical issues.
Thanks for any help you can provide.

Sat Aug 27, 2016 10:13 am

Dang.... say it isn't so. I've sure been impressed by Subarugears, putting up the money to tackle this problem (with help from a few Samba member early adopters). Best of luck, I'm watching it carefully.

Glad members are willing to jump in and help make this work. I appreciate those willing to take a chance on Vanagon Science. If there was hope for a granny + 5 speed AWD I'd jump in. It can't cost more than my 6 rebuilds, right? (oops probably can cost more). :oops: :oops:

Sat Aug 27, 2016 10:22 am

With the customer service that Todd provides, I'm sure if there was a problem he would take care of it. Happy with my 4.44 subarugears 5 speed.

Sat Aug 27, 2016 2:34 pm

a57oval wrote: have you guys heard of ... Ring and Pinion failures from Subarugears?

No

Until you can add evidence to the contrary, my opinion is that whatever happened is probably the drivers fault.

Ive been through 5 syncro ring and pinions.. the problems were caused by the loose Nut at the Wheel, not metallurgy.

So

In order to give a fair hearing to your current report, please provide evidence.

Hearsay tends to contain embellishments that are accusatory, while lacking content that is substantive.

Wouldn't you agree?:-)

Sat Aug 27, 2016 3:21 pm

Jon_slider wrote: a57oval wrote: have you guys heard of ... Ring and Pinion failures from Subarugears?

No

Until you can add evidence to the contrary, my opinion is that whatever happened is probably the drivers fault.

Ive been through 5 syncro ring and pinions.. the problems were caused by the loose Nut at the Wheel, not metallurgy.

There's a LOT of people interested in in the outcome of this experiment and I hope all problems are solved. For me, success means the loose nut behind the wheel can drive (almost) however he wants. Teenagers can drive the van, for example.

Sat Aug 27, 2016 4:02 pm

I spoke to Todd, he is pretty open about this, early on there were some failures with the R/P they since redesigned it.

He explained what the issue was and I am not going to attempt to address it. I think its best to call him directly and hear. As far as I know he took care of the customer.

I am looking at doing one soon, would love to quiet down my transaxle and have a 5 speed.

Sat Aug 27, 2016 4:23 pm

Sodo wrote: success means… Teenagers can drive the van

Bear in mind that I was not only responsible for how and where I drove, I was also responsible for choosing the motor, tire size, and gearing.

If the Teenagers dont drive offroad, and are not supplied with a vehicle whose tires have massive amounts of leverage, motors that have massive amounts of power, and gearing that is operating at substantially higher than stock loads.. the ring and pinion will probably last longer than the bodywork :-)

david2676 wrote: I spoke to Todd, he is pretty open about this, early on there were some failures with the R/P they since redesigned it.

Thanks for your testimony. I withdraw my objection

It appears the accused has confessed, paid restitution, been rehabilitated, and is now a gainfully employed tax payer.

Sun Aug 28, 2016 5:13 pm

SODO; I too very much hope this was an isolated incident.

Ocean: How many miles do you have on your R+P? Did you purchase the set and have it installed locally or Did Subarugears build you a whole box.

Jon_Slider: I cannot add any other evidence for your satisfaction. I however completely trust the individual that is re-doing the transmission and I trust his word that the ring and Pinion did in fact fail prematurely.
I do not know the driver of the vehicle so I cannot comment on the driver habits of said driver.
"I've been through 5 syncro ring and pinions.. the problems were caused by the loose Nut at the Wheel, not metallurgy. "

Wow! That is crazy. I would love to know how your destroying ring and pinions with such frequency. Large tires? Dumping the clutch at redline?

"Hearsay tends to contain embellishments that are accusatory, while lacking content that is substantive.
Wouldn't you agree?"

Agree wholeheartedly. That is why I refuse to engage in conversation that includes hearsay, embellishments, or content lacking substance. This is a simple question that I don't know the answer to.

david2676:
Thank you very much for the information. This is a start. I will contact him and see what he has to say.

My hope is that this is a very isolated incident and that I drive many miles with no issues.

Peter

Sun Aug 28, 2016 6:11 pm

Failures happen for a variety of reasons. The question is whether the supplier (Subarugears in this instance) and mechanic/shop (if not you) will take care of you if/when a failure happens. In this regard, Todd has, as far as I know, a spotless record of taking care of his customers. That said, buy with confidence. These R&Ps are in many other vehicles besides Vanagons. I see no reason to put the cart before the horse in terms of what might happen. You're driving a 30 year old classic VW, so a lot of things *could* happen.

14K miles and still going for me.

-Kevin

Sun Aug 28, 2016 6:44 pm

a57oval wrote:

Ocean: How many miles do you have on your R+P? Did you purchase the set and have it installed locally or Did Subarugears build you a whole box.

Subaru gears did the whole box, yet I had the LSD taken out by Chris at Subyworks here in California. Good guys.

I think I have around 20,000 miles. Maybe a little more? The van feels like a modern Van. Going from a vanagon 4-speed with higher 3rd and 4th to a 5-speed has been night and day. No more whining that happens with the rebuilt vanagon box.

Sun Aug 28, 2016 7:23 pm

a57oval wrote: Jon_Slider: I cannot add any other evidence for your satisfaction.
…
I would love to know how your destroying ring and pinions with such frequency.

no evidence needed. I believe you.

destruction index add all the following overspec conditions, as percent over stock
oversize tires, 31"
torque 212 ft lbs
ring and pinion 5.43
engine volume 2.5 liters

wheel leverage is increased, engine braking is increased, these forces converge on the ring and pinion

now use engine braking on steep hills, both in granny and reverse.. then add in a bit of beginner driver bad luck, detailed below

reuse tranny cases that are not new, to repair and rebuild a tranny that was built with a used tranny case.. tranny 1 and 2 fail.

I was given a free ring and pinion after the first fail, the rest were on me.

try to jerk someone out of the sand, and they dont move.. repeat.. replace cracked housing and associated destruction of Ring and Pinion. tranny #3

go downhill in granny, use engine braking a lot, avoid using brakes. develop loose low gear housing bolts, and tighten only 7 of 8. the 8th bolt is hidden inside the low gear housing under an inspection cover. The bolt falls off inside the low gear housing. tranny #4

try to back down a steep hill in reverse, release clutch a bit late so wheels grab and slide, a little.. thereby shoving pinion shaft into low gear housing and getting things out of alignment so there is no more ability to get into granny.. Final Fail

Mon Aug 29, 2016 11:52 am

I'm in the "assuming user error until proven otherwise" camp.

Here's a video explaining what's changed with their new R&P

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u1sMkWQ4gDY&feature=youtu.be

It's in Australian. Don't know if they have subtitles or not...

Mon Aug 29, 2016 12:41 pm

wasserbox wrote:

It's in Australian. Don't know if they have subtitles or not...

I am pretty sure if you flip your screen upside down it will automatically translate it?

:lol:

Mon Aug 29, 2016 12:46 pm

MidwestDrifter wrote: wasserbox wrote:

It's in Australian. Don't know if they have subtitles or not...

I am pretty sure if you flip your screen upside down it will automatically translate it?

:lol:

Not helpful. It translated it to French. :D :D :D

Mon Aug 29, 2016 1:03 pm

Todd talks funny. Needs more time in America for proper English. :lol:

Mon Aug 29, 2016 1:16 pm

Do their Australian flipped R+P's work in North America, or do you have to flip them back?

Mon Aug 29, 2016 1:56 pm

Andrew A. Libby wrote: Do their Australian flipped R+P's work in North America, or do you have to flip them back?

Driving it forward in reverse gear helps with the "Down under syndrome" :lol:

Mon Aug 29, 2016 6:01 pm

stay away from synthetic gear oil I fried a pumpkin in my 92 Toyota pu with amsoil gear oil. kept it up and changed over a 15 year period and it yowled on me. got sloppy too.

Sat Apr 08, 2017 11:15 pm

I have the latest 2016 revision of the subarugears 4.11 ring an pinion in my 86 westy powered by an SVX 230hp quad cam 24 valve 3.3L . In a Subaru the AWD pinion shaft is supported by bearings inside the gear stack tube. Since the trans is locked into 2wd there is no need for these bearings so the revised pinion shaft is enlarged to compensate for their removal thus making it stronger. I am really putting this design to the test with 229ft lbs of torque in a 5000lb westy. Even if I do break it there is no way I will ever go back to the 4 speed. I have 5000 miles on it and it is simply awesome. Anyone whom drives or rides in it is either jealous or just plain blown away by how it drives.
Anyone with basic mechanical skills can break down a subie 5 speed in under an hour drinking some cold ones. Their are basically two unitized gear stacks and the differential inside . Subarugears assembly is pretty simple but if you have any doubts about setting up the ring and pinion mesh pay a pro to pattern it.
I agree Todd stands behind what he sells and will many new and innovative products their are often improvements to be made. I am building my second WRX Subarugears 3.3L carat and expect it to leave passengers scratching their heads on how they can possibly riding in a vanagon? If your in SE PA drop me a line and go for a ride and you'll understand why I only use Subarugears and hire Matt Steedle transmissions for my pattern work.

Sat Apr 08, 2017 11:16 pm

I have the latest 2016 revision of the subarugears 4.11 ring an pinion in my 86 westy powered by an SVX 230hp quad cam 24 valve 3.3L . In a Subaru the AWD pinion shaft is supported by bearings inside the gear stack tube. Since the trans is locked into 2wd there is no need for these bearings so the revised pinion shaft is enlarged to compensate for their removal thus making it stronger. I am really putting this design to the test with 229ft lbs of torque in a 5000lb westy. Even if I do break it there is no way I will ever go back to the 4 speed. I have 5000 miles on it and it is simply awesome. Anyone whom drives or rides in it is either jealous or just plain blown away by how it drives.
Anyone with basic mechanical skills can break down a subie 5 speed in under an hour drinking some cold ones. Their are basically two unitized gear stacks and the differential inside . Subarugears assembly is pretty simple but if you have any doubts about setting up the ring and pinion mesh pay a pro to pattern it.
I agree Todd stands behind what he sells and will many new and innovative products their are often improvements to be made. I am building my second WRX Subarugears 3.3L carat and expect it to leave passengers scratching their heads on how they can possibly riding in a vanagon? If your in SE PA drop me a line and go for a ride and you'll understand why I only use Subarugears and hire Matt Steedle transmissions for my pattern work.