TheSamba.com :: View topic - What should i expect out of a 1776 engine in a bus?

Sat Dec 26, 2015 2:30 pm

So I finally got around to tearing my engine down and am now ready for a rebuild. I have been doing a lot of reading and checking with folks but I would still like the opinion from the Samba community.

I have a 1200cc 1961-1965 40hp motor and a 1964 Tin Top Sundial camper I have heard lots of people say that they are less than impressed with a stock motor in the buses. so with that in mind, I would like to do some upgrades while the engine is torn down. I took my case, heads, and crank over to Qualitat in Grand Prarie to have it line bored and inspected. After talking with Doug here we discussed upgrading to a 1641cc engine. I then cam home and read this http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/archive/index.php/o-t--t-88790--.html

So after reading the above, I would really like to consider just building a 1776. but what will the differences be since im looking at a bus build and that article refers mostly to a bug build. Will the fact that I have a reduction box ruin any efforts put forth by a new 1776?

My goal for the bus is to have something I can drive around the state of texas, into Oklahoma and even all the way to the White River in Arkansas for some flyfishing and camping. im wanting something that will keep cool at 70-75MPH and climb some hills if I need it to. Not off road or anything.

Sat Dec 26, 2015 4:51 pm

well you are going to get 20 different answers on this considering you didn't really give us enough info

first how any size engine will perform in any aircooled will depend on gearing, tire size, engine specs, driving style, etc....

second most will not recommend not driving a split at over 65+mph since they are not design for it and a lot of suspension mods will be need to drive it safely at higher speeds

finally who says stock engines suck in a bus?
I usually run a stock single port 1600cc in most of mine with no problems but I am never in a hurry when I drive a split

I did have a mild 1776 in my old '56 that would easily do 100mph but I also did some heavy mods to the suspension, tranny, and bus itself.
even with all those mods I usually only drove it at around 65mph unless I want to pass someone or just piss them off :wink:

BTW these are all just my opinions based on my experiences like I said you are going to get a lot more answer different then mine :roll:

Sat Dec 26, 2015 6:57 pm

Nobody has ever told me that a 1600 single sucks for a bus. some have just said it was less than optimal. but I have never driven one so I have nothing to go off of.

As far as the drive train and tire size goes, as far as I know everything is stock. I would agree now that you mention it, that anything over 65mph would need more mods.

I just don't want to build a 1600, regret it, and wish I would have spent the money on more power. not looking for a drag bus, just something that will get me where I want to go reliably.

I am open to suggestions on builds. one option that Qualitat offered was a 1641 with a 100 cam and a stock carb that has had the jets bored open a bit. Im just a bit worried about longevity and overheating. At the same time, if a 1641 will offer no noticeable increase in power, why spend the extra money? Just build a 1600 or go the extra mile and go for a1776.

Sat Dec 26, 2015 7:20 pm

If you are starting with a 40hp case it is best to keep the build very mild. Going to a 1776 with that as a basis isn't the best plan.

Sat Dec 26, 2015 7:31 pm

GTV wrote: If you are starting with a 40hp case it is best to keep the build very mild. Going to a 1776 with that as a basis isn't the best plan.

I have other cases laying around including an AM code remanufactured 1600 case. I also have a 1600 DP as41 but its a complete engine and didn't feel like converting from 12 volt to 6 to go back in the bus.

Sat Dec 26, 2015 7:40 pm

Converting the bus to 12v is easy and highly recommended. Use the 40hp base if you want stock, use the AS41 if you want 1600cc or more. I would not bother with 1641, thinner cylinder walls for a very minimal increase in power. The 90.5's are stock thickness so they retain reliability, and it is a very noticeable increase in performance.

Sat Dec 26, 2015 7:52 pm

A 1776 is a waste of time when you can build a 1916 for identical effort and dollars. Best to begin that with the case strength and cooling advantages of a 1971-on Super Beetle motor

However, modern freeway/cruising speeds (anything much more than 55MPH) are unrealistic for a vehicle fitted with reduction boxes... Too many revs to be relaxing or efficient. Maybe try a 'bolt-in' Type 1/Beetle gearbox/suspension conversion

Unless you are running 2bar boost, thick vs thin walls is mythinformation perpetuated by poor engine builders who can't drill straight holes

Sat Dec 26, 2015 10:09 pm

VWCOOL wrote:
However, modern freeway/cruising speeds (anything much more than 55MPH) are unrealistic for a vehicle fitted with reduction boxes... Too many revs to be relaxing or efficient. Maybe try a 'bolt-in' Type 1/Beetle gearbox/suspension conversion

The stock 1 ton bus (63 on) was rated by VW to cruise max speed ~ 65 mph, check the owners manual.

You can build a bus with RGBs and make it too high geared for a 1600.
It all depends on choice of gearing & tires. Good idea to decide the speeds you want to drive, then decide on running gear (engine, trans, wheels) as a set. There are a few thread discussions on engine and gearing choices.

You do not need to do straight axle to go over 55 mph.

Sat Dec 26, 2015 10:13 pm

since you are in texas you are going to be dealing with cooling issues because you not only get high temps there but humidity

IMO if you want to go bigger then a 1776 then you would be better off sticking with 90.5 pistons and cylinder then go with a longer stroke crank

before you do anything maybe try finding someone close to you with a stock bus with a 1600sp in it and go for a ride in it or see if they will let you drive it

Sun Dec 27, 2015 1:09 am

joe56vw wrote: I did have a mild 1776 in my old '56 that would easily do 100mph but I also did some heavy mods to the suspension, tranny, and bus itself.

Anyone else and I would be throwing the BS flag. LoL :lol:

Sun Dec 27, 2015 3:39 am

Clara wrote: VWCOOL wrote:
However, modern freeway/cruising speeds (anything much more than 55MPH) are unrealistic for a vehicle fitted with reduction boxes... Too many revs to be relaxing or efficient. Maybe try a 'bolt-in' Type 1/Beetle gearbox/suspension conversion

The stock 1 ton bus (63 on) was rated by VW to cruise max speed ~ 65 mph, check the owners manual.

You can build a bus with RGBs and make it too high geared for a 1600.
It all depends on choice of gearing & tires. Good idea to decide the speeds you want to drive, then decide on running gear (engine, trans, wheels) as a set. There are a few thread discussions on engine and gearing choices.

You do not need to do straight axle to go over 55 mph.

Some of what you say/write may be correct: I have just changed gear (tyre) from 185/65 to 185/60 with one of my race VWs to increase revs - and based on previous data/experience - hopefully the car's maximum speed.

What overall gearing (tyre, 4th, diff) would you suggest for this Kombi, with capacity/power increase, to keep cooling effective/efficient levels at the OP's desire of 75MPH?

Sun Dec 27, 2015 6:13 am

Clara wrote: You can build a bus with RGBs and make it too high geared for a 1600.

Yes, absolutely, I put in 3.88s on Rancho's advice with my 1600sp and it's too tall. (Big nut, 1.26RGB) They gave me a choice of 4.37, 4.12, or 3.88 and said I'd be best using a 3.88 with my SP. Wrong! It struggles on the highway now and my fuel economy dropped 7MPG because it has to run wide open all the time. And that's an empty Deluxe on flat ground! Winter project is a 19xx to pull the gear......

:(

OP: We need to know more about your application to make suggestions.

Sun Dec 27, 2015 7:19 am

joe56vw wrote: since you are in texas you are going to be dealing with cooling issues because you not only get high temps there but humidity

IMO if you want to go bigger then a 1776 then you would be better off sticking with 90.5 pistons and cylinder then go with a longer stroke crank

before you do anything maybe try finding someone close to you with a stock bus with a 1600sp in it and go for a ride in it or see if they will let you drive it

You can install a 74 mm crank with out a lot of effort.. No cutting or grinding.. Just a little shimming.. It will give you a little more bottom end torque.. Torque in a bus is drivable power you need to off set the weight..

Sun Dec 27, 2015 7:40 am

Bruce Amacker wrote: Clara wrote: You can build a bus with RGBs and make it too high geared for a 1600.

Yes, absolutely, I put in 3.88s on Rancho's advice with my 1600sp and it's too tall. (Big nut, 1.26RGB) They gave me a choice of 4.37, 4.12, or 3.88 and said I'd be best using a 3.88 with my SP. Wrong! It struggles on the highway now and my fuel economy dropped 7MPG because it has to run wide open all the time. And that's an empty Deluxe on flat ground!

I've got a 4.12 in a big nut with a stock 1600. It runs comfortably at 65 on the highway. Only downside is a little more 3rd-4th shifting around town than I like.

Sun Dec 27, 2015 8:06 am

I'm running 74x85.5. No case machining and stock size pistons keep the build cost down. Nice torque at lower RPMs which is great in a heavy bus. With 40 IDFs and merged header it is a joy to drive. Also running bignut trans, 4:12, 82 4th and oversize tire on 16" rims to keep revs in check.

Sun Dec 27, 2015 8:53 am

bubblehead wrote: I'm running 74x85.5. No case machining and stock size pistons keep the build cost down. Nice torque at lower RPMs which is great in a heavy bus. With 40 IDFs and merged header it is a joy to drive. Also running bignut trans, 4:12, 82 4th and oversize tire on 16" rims to keep revs in check.
74 is a 74mm crank 85.5 is what? cylinder size? and what is "82 4th" ?
joe56vw wrote:
before you do anything maybe try finding someone close to you with a stock bus with a 1600sp in it and go for a ride in it or see if they will let you drive it

I think this is a good idea, ill see if I can find someone local that wont mind me driving their bus.

Also I think the caution on the 3.88 gears is great. Im not sure at all what I have in my bus.

So right now I guess my game plan is to go drive a 1600sp bus and see what I think and then make a decision based off of that.

GTV wrote: Converting the bus to 12v is easy and highly recommended. Use the 40hp base if you want stock, use the AS41 if you want 1600cc or more. I would not bother with 1641, thinner cylinder walls for a very minimal increase in power. The 90.5's are stock thickness so they retain reliability, and it is a very noticeable increase in performance.

What are the benefits of changing to 12v? I think I will just consider building the 40hp back to stock with some light mods like a 74 crank. At that point, if I like it in the bus then it will stay, and if not then a built as41 case will be inserted.

Thanks for all the advice guys, this helps a lot. It had been several months in the making and I have already forgotten what my original plan was. all great reminders!

Sun Dec 27, 2015 10:41 am

The 40hp is 1192cc, 77x64. A 1600 (1584cc) is 85.5x69. The easiest way to increase displacement on a 40hp is to use 83mm p&c's for 1385cc. A 69mm crank from a 13/15/1600 can be installed in a 40hp case, but you are better off using the later, stronger case as a foundation, especially considering you have one in stock. The 40hp big bore 83's work great in a Beetle application, I do not know if it is recommended for a bus though. So in other words, do not try and stuff a 74mm crank in a 40hp case, you're better off using your AS41 for that project.

So if using the 40hp base and wanting more power, use 83's, later 1.1:1 rockers (40hp used 1:1), and possibly a very small performance cam. Maybe dual carbs and a header. Not wise to go much further than that.

If using the AS41, the sky is the proverbial limit.

85.5x74 is 1699cc.
http://www.cbperformance.com/v/enginecalc.html

Mon Dec 28, 2015 6:20 pm

BarnShooter wrote:
What are the benefits of changing to 12v?

Benefits of 12V are you can plug in a modern stereo, and you can plug in a cell phone charger outlet.
I have done miles and road trips on both 6V and 12V. 6V is more sensitive to lights getting dimmer with bad connections, but I've had bad connections kill lights on 12V too, so I pretty much have to clean all the connections (or get a new wiring harness) whether 12V or 6V.

Benefits of 6V are using old 6V radios (yay am?) and the numerous free starters, generators, etc
also if you are using an old 6V gas heater no mods needed for that.
Also you don't need to mess around with swapping starter/ FW issues if it is still 6 V.

benefits of using whatever 6V or 12V it already is is not messing around with changing everything.

I second the advice of using the later case if you are building a bigger motor. The earlier alloy is more easily warped when pushed hard, and the later cases have improved oiling.

Mon Dec 28, 2015 9:04 pm

im running a mild 1849cc 76x88 in my camper bus with stock big nut redux boxes and 215 tires and it likes to cruise at 60ish. on roadtrips we cruise 14+ hours a day and get in 400 to 500 miles. i dont like to push it much faster. its about the distance traveled not breaking speed records. trying to push a loaded down camper full of tools, spare parts and gear, 70+ mph for any distance especially in the texas summer time is asking for problems. you will need alot bigger motor then a 1776 and some taller gearing to "cruise at 70 to 75".

Tue Dec 29, 2015 12:08 am

I have run both engines (stock 1600 and 1776 dual carb 34mm dellorto) in my 63' Kombi with RGB's, stock height tires, 4.12 ring and pinion and 0.82 4th gear. RGB's have 1.263:1 ratio (big nut/ big brake...but mine are 63' only boxes). Both engines were new...

1600- Runs 60-65mph (gps) on the flats with minimal weight in the bus,
drops to 55 up medium hills, and 3rd gear (40mph) on STEEP hills.
Average 25-28mpg

1776- Runs 60-65 mph on the flats fully loaded or empty, doesn't drop mph
on medium hills. And pulls 4th gear on STEEP hills around 55mph.
23-25mpg in the middle of summer!

The 1776 definitely makes more power everywhere, but the Reduction Gears holds back the top speed, which is fine with me. My preference...go for the 1776. It doesn't run hot, and you don't need a ton of cash to build it over a 1600...if you are buying everything new/ machine work for both engines. You will spend more if you are going to use dual carbs though.