TheSamba.com :: View topic - Current engine build costs from top builders

Sun Nov 08, 2015 1:44 pm

vwinnovator wrote: bluebus86,

the purpose of asking is get real life answers from actual purchasers who have actually bought turnkey....

no need to call each vendor when there is a forum sitting here that so many actual buyers can share there ACTUAL cost of their experience.

A last 5 year spread should give a fair idea of how prices HAVE escalated and may even show that along with the price increases, the quality of the parts/build have suffered...

IE. head castings...

ok that is fair, but you did ask in the original post about "current cost", hence my confusion on what you really wanted which is now evident that you want to know how the prices have escalated. it might be good for your data to inquire about the date of when the engines were built so you can track the escalation of price better.

Sun Nov 08, 2015 1:58 pm

According to the classifieds, Vwinnovator actually sells turmkeys. This exercise would be a good tool to help give a comparative price to current/potential buyers.

I imagine a builder must get a lot of "my friend got a bigger/better/flashier engine built by so and so for x-amount..." kind of messages. Having real-life data about pricing would be a good counter-argument.

Mon Nov 09, 2015 8:27 am

That is correct. I do build engines, and have been for over 35yrs. Only on an individual basis however-no mass production, no crap, no junk...

Really only about 15-20% of what my shop does for vw's..not much profit margin in them from a business standpoint, but I still have the passion for their performance abilities.
(theres a huge difference in the time to "assemble" vs. the time involved in a true "build")

Over the years, I've been amazed at how much crap has flooded the market and what I consider to be a "de-education" of what a good engine build is and what it truly costs to build to a 200hp streetable level.

Having "cut my teeth" with vw performance/drag racing during the prime eras of Berg, Karcey, Kawell, Pauter, Crawford,early CB...and the evolution of Raby, Sachette (jaycee), Gears, Chico...I often shake my head at how things are now...

With all the mass producing "assemblers" advertising big CC engines, various color engines, shiny chrome wrapped stuff, I believe the general buyer and newer generations of vw owners have had a huge misconception of what a to expect for their $$ anymore. (in a quality / performance sense)

So, I started this thread as research to re-educate and create a reference to true costs, through true experience of those who DO buy and DO understand what it takes to make the power and have the quality avail. these days.

Responses have been heading in the right idea so far..
Thanks ppl

Later we'll re-educate the "what kind of warranty do I get with my engine?" myths...common knowledge, builder warranty, parts manufacturer warranty...

Mon Nov 09, 2015 8:49 am

Singerdude wrote: According to the classifieds, Vwinnovator actually sells turmkeys. This exercise would be a good tool to help give a comparative price to current/potential buyers.

I imagine a builder must get a lot of "my friend got a bigger/better/flashier engine built by so and so for x-amount..." kind of messages. Having real-life data about pricing would be a good counter-argument.

true, but it becomes avail to ALL builders..good ones and not so good one's..

a good builder doesn't play the "price" game vs.what someone got through someone else.
A good engine costs what it cost.

a painted up, chrome wrapped 2900cc for $5995 sounds exciting!! but is it? :roll:

Mon Nov 09, 2015 9:45 am

Quote: A good engine costs what it cost
Can't get anymore factual then this even if it may actually seem opinionated. Great engines do cost what it costs. But with the buyer market flooded with "everybody is an engine builder" sense, they have the option to buy cheaply. Another fact, blinged assessorizing sells. It's not for everyone, but the market is there.
I build engines as well because I enjoy the hobby and I get bored fast. I'm by far not the cheapest, but my blocks won't break.

Mon Nov 09, 2015 10:12 am

so the blue engines arnt any good?? I havent seen any real education hear in this thread.I did see a name I have seen the handy work of and wouldent ever have them do squat. as far as prices that depends on what go's into it. time also depends on what go's in to it.some parts need more reworking,some builders do more or less than other builders, some say thats not nessary and dont do things that should be done...some are stuck in the 60's or 70's some arnt. some do a lot but dont do enough some do little and do the right things,some miss some dont.some think "those parts "are ready to install,some dont.and some actually pay attn to what there doing...and why. some are monkey see monkey doo...doo.some have never messed with anything but these vw's some ....have a lot more exp and know there is little to no difference. I do like the cost of the engine to be what is paid. :wink: but what you get is subjective to many things.

Tue Nov 10, 2015 9:42 am

vwinnovator wrote: Singerdude wrote: According to the classifieds, Vwinnovator actually sells turmkeys. This exercise would be a good tool to help give a comparative price to current/potential buyers.

I imagine a builder must get a lot of "my friend got a bigger/better/flashier engine built by so and so for x-amount..." kind of messages. Having real-life data about pricing would be a good counter-argument.

true, but it becomes avail to ALL builders..good ones and not so good one's..

a good builder doesn't play the "price" game vs.what someone got through someone else.
A good engine costs what it cost.

a painted up, chrome wrapped 2900cc for $5995 sounds exciting!! but is it? :roll:

Of course a rod thrown thru the case is always exciting, for a moment. added smoke helps the excitement level even more!!!

Tue Nov 10, 2015 10:47 am

I have about $3500 in my 2109 as a turnkey. The case, shroud, tin, alternator, fan, and some other odds and ends all came from a friend who was getting rid of his VW stuff. That's easily 1k, so I suppose a 2109 for $4500 isn't too bad considering the parts used, I got some good deals on parts and $100 off the heads during a Tim's Christmas sale.

The car is a semi-daily driver too, so it needs to be reliable.

here's a 140 hp 2109 from CB for $6195
http://www.cbperformance.com/SearchResults.asp?Cat=138#2109

Tue Nov 10, 2015 12:36 pm

what have some of you guys paid for labor only? Curious

Tue Nov 10, 2015 12:58 pm

I'm not sure, but say $100/hr. and it takes about 15 hours to "build" a motor.

$1500 sounds about right from a reputable builder.

Tue Nov 10, 2015 1:19 pm

LeninCas wrote: I'm not sure, but say $100/hr. and it takes about 15 hours to "build" a motor.

$1500 sounds about right from a reputable builder.

15 hours?

It takes me 40-50 hours......

Tue Nov 10, 2015 1:36 pm

LeninCas wrote: I'm not sure, but say $100/hr. and it takes about 15 hours to "build" a motor.

$1500 sounds about right from a reputable builder.

Um....15 hours to "build" a VW engine? Did a GEX employee quote you that number??? I guarantee even the last stroker short block I purchased from a reputable builder took more time to assemble than that, and I had several more days in labor of mocking up, measuring, disassembling, and reassembling to do (just to turn it into a long block!).

Tue Nov 10, 2015 1:51 pm

WOW :shock:

I'm assuming you're adding porting, CCing, all clearancing, line boring to that, right?

Tue Nov 10, 2015 1:52 pm

I paid one of the BIGGEST names in the industry $500 to assemble a longblock. Circumstantial special pricing.. .

Tue Nov 10, 2015 3:26 pm

hi. may I ask why you want a 200 HP motor for the street ? I am thinking you want it for street drag racing ..may be you want it for high speed driving over 100 mph or you just want to tell your friends you have a 200 HP motor in your bug . I just don't get it . a bug is just unsafe over 110 mph on the street it does not have great brakes at that speed you should say no brakes at all . you will need a roll bar. good safty harness good seats that can stand a high speed crash . I hope your not one of those guys that puts a big motor in a bug and that's it . safety safety my friend . spencerfvee vwinnovator wrote: Looking for some avg. current turnkey engine costs for a GREAT quality 200hp N/A street engine.

Inquiring as to if these well known past builders still provide them and an avg cost to do so from the best parts currently avail to build from.

Anyone have one built in the last 5yrs? and what was your overall cost?

-Do they even still build turnkey?

Gene Berg Ent.

Gary Berg

Dave/Judy Kawell

Paradise / Laufer

Jaycee

Gears

Crawford

Raby

Tue Nov 10, 2015 3:46 pm

"Assembly" and "Build" time are totally different. The build time for me on a stock complete engine is upwards of 25-30 hours. A full stroker is 40-50. The actual assembly is only a fraction of that. It also depends on how good you are. If you've built the same engine with the same brand parts a couple hundred times, you are going to be WAY faster than a guy doing it for the 5th time or 10th time. It's all relative. I recently built a 1600 longblock for a guy for the SCORE series. It took me 25 hours just to build the longblock.

Tue Nov 10, 2015 6:15 pm

LeninCas wrote: I'm not sure, but say $100/hr. and it takes about 15 hours to "build" a motor.

$1500 sounds about right from a reputable builder.

You can bolt a motor together in 15 hours. It's the 40-50 hours of mocking up, dry assembly, measuring, making sure everything is happy that lets you bolt it together in 15 hours. I don't think I've built a stroker motor in under 50 hours but I've only built about 10 and rarely with the same combo of parts.

And all my parts have come pre clearance, line bored, CC'd, ported from the manufacturers I use. But I always check everything and do a lot of work to all the parts I use. For instance I usually spend about 4 hours inside one of my new aluminum cases, measuring, deburring, polishing, doing some oiling mods etc

brad

brad

Tue Nov 10, 2015 8:01 pm

I totally agree on the labor times in the 30-50 hours total time depending on the size of the motor and power level,

So at a very reasonable shop labor rate of say 75.00 per hour, ( I know one of the top V8 builder here in Vancouver has a shop rate of 125 per hour.)

But at $75.00.......

75.00 x 30 = $2250
75.00 x 40 = $3000
75.00 x 50 = $3750

I don't know about you guys but if I used those numbers in my quotes for assembly labour charges I dont think I would be building any motors.

( its a good thing I do these builds as more of a hobby than a business )

Tue Nov 10, 2015 10:29 pm

Parts can be easily added up and figured out. I charge 800 assembly, 150 break in + consummables ( oil, zddp, filters). This is of course that there isnt any shopping or parts inspection.
Darren asked me one time what i charged. I told him above...he said Jon, you're charging too cheap. I said I know.
Most folks have no clue how intricate and time consuming the build process is. Lots of little pickup work. Especially on the case.
I take like 4-6 hours a day after work for a week and a half and keep Sundays free for family. And this is if I have most of the parts and no hiccups.

Tue Nov 10, 2015 10:40 pm

vwinnovator wrote: Singerdude wrote: According to the classifieds, Vwinnovator actually sells turmkeys. This exercise would be a good tool to help give a comparative price to current/potential buyers.

I imagine a builder must get a lot of "my friend got a bigger/better/flashier engine built by so and so for x-amount..." kind of messages. Having real-life data about pricing would be a good counter-argument.

true, but it becomes avail to ALL builders..good ones and not so good one's..

a good builder doesn't play the "price" game vs.what someone got through someone else.
A good engine costs what it cost.

a painted up, chrome wrapped 2900cc for $5995 sounds exciting!! but is it? :roll:

Being a newbie recently enticed by a similar deal and having the engine rebuilt after not even 3k miles, I totally support your enterprise. I, as many others have foregone the golden "buy poor, buy twice" rule. Constantly flooded by advertised cheap deals, one ends up being shocked when confronted with the prices asked by the top dogs. Most of the people probably think they don't need "rocket power" or a combo tuned to the absolute perfection to cruise down main street and occasionaly step on it a bit, so they settle for "good enough".

But good enough can and do end up costing more in the long run, that is almost guaranteed. So I welcome any effort in educating the community and I read this thread with great interest.