TheSamba.com :: View topic

Fri Apr 17, 2015 6:26 pm

Sorry to resurrect this topic again, but I couldn't find the answer to my question while pouring through old threads, and I don't have the Super Beetle Bentley manual.
I'm diagnosing another Super shimmy problem an a 78 and I've eliminated bearings, tie rod ends, ball joints, tires, and strut towers- seriously they are all solid and perfect. The bushings, however, look to be original to the car and I'm just gonna replace them and call it good.
Can I remove the sway bar and control arms while leaving the lower ball joint attached? Or will this put too much stress on the upper strut attachment. I'm hoping to just lower the control arms enough to pop out the bushings and replace with the urethane ones.
Thanks for the input.

Sat Apr 18, 2015 5:58 pm

I can say I have never been able to remove the control arm bushings from my '74 Super, ever! But, they are still in good shape. Before I knew better, I thought replacing them would help with my super shimmies.

But I know better now. The shimmies are caused by wheel imbalance and/or from being out of round, not worn components. Worn components will cause other symptoms, and perhaps exacerbate the shimmies. With that being said...

Replacing components will help initially. Almost anything new tends to be "stiffer" before it wears in. This stiffness will resist the resonant vibration that is the shimmies, until the component wears in.

Make sure your front tires are still round first. Measure the tread depth around the diameter of the tires. Does it vary? Do the same for the rear tires. Find the two "best" tires with the least variation in tread depth around the diameter, and install them on the front.

Improvement? Get the tires balanced. If the tires are out of round, there's no real value in getting them balanced, as they are still out of round.

The McPherson strut design is a great design. However, for some reason, it has a certain resonant frequency that causes the "super shimmies" around 40 MPH.

Regards,
Mike

Wed Apr 22, 2015 9:51 pm

The super shimmies in this car were pretty severe, albeit short lived during the ride. Everything looked good on initial inspection and I read somewhere that the German rubber bushings were problematic in exaggerating any small vibrations, so...... I've already torn the control arms apart.

Now I'm regretting that.

Getting the bushings out was a mean pain in the ass. I thought putting German style window rubber on was a tough job- this was worse. To get the inner bushings out I went through a horrible process of torching, drilling, and tearing. Those things are made of ungodly strong material! But I persevered and finally won that battle.
The ball joint job was even worse. Per another samba members instruction I cut off the back of the joints in order to hammer out the ball stud, which then allowed me to hollow out the joint so that I could weld a thick bead around the inside perimeter of the joint. I then quelched the thing in a bucket of water and tapped out the joint.

Getting the new ball joints in is a new horror that I'm still fighting with. Just 1/8" left to fully seat..... and they will not fucking budge one bit.

I've broke two vices, injured my wife, and have been using a three and a half foot breaker bar.
Gonna sleep on it now. can't deal with the frustration anymore.

Thu Apr 23, 2015 6:32 am

I had a SB shimmy appear over night.

Discount tire SWORE the tires were balanced.

I had them pull the tires off again, and check the balance with the weights on.

They magically became out of balance again. (within 20 miles)

Turns out they didnt have a "cone" to fit the stock rims correctly, and the lip of one of my rims may have caused the tire to shift. So Long story short, I need to find some old cones to fit my rims for spin balancing.

Thu Apr 23, 2015 8:06 am

Back in the day, they used to have a balancing machine that spun the tire while it was still on the car. Some way they could then figure out where to place the weights. It was great for the Super Beetles because it would take into account the entire wheel and drum assembly. It was also the only way I could get my 72 Super's tires not to shimmy. But replacing all the worn out steering components is kind of the first step on these cars.

If you can get the old control arm bushings out, the new replacement ones are split, and are easier to replace.

You should be using some heat to get those new ball joints to seat. If you put them in a vise and crank down on them like in the pics above, and then start heating the control arm metal that they press into around the circumference, they should at some point pop in the final amount.

Thu Apr 23, 2015 2:08 pm

For those that don't believe the suspension components don't wear out, watch this video. These are the control arm bushings.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_sLSAz2gPBY

Thu Apr 23, 2015 5:52 pm

Beetlenut, I'm afraid to heat up the control arms for fear of melting the inner plastic housing in the ball joints. I've muscled the crap out of these bastards enough in the last two days that I don't want to set myself back on what I feel I've accomplished so far.

Mon Apr 27, 2015 8:15 pm

MagmaJctAz wrote: The shimmies are caused by wheel imbalance and/or from being out of round, not worn components. Worn components will cause other symptoms, and perhaps exacerbate the shimmies. :roll:

This is ridiculous. It doesn't matter if your tires are brand new and balanced, front-end aligned. The shimmies will be caused by any single one of the suspension components failing or being worn out, including something as small as the steering damper bushing. Don't believe it? Remove your good bushing and replace it just the metal sleeve, as if the rubber had worn out. You will have almost as bad a shimmy as if the inner control arm bushings were bad, like in the video in the link.

MagmaJctAz wrote: The McPherson strut design is a great design. However, for some reason, it has a certain resonant frequency that causes the "super shimmies" around 40 MPH.

Sorry, Mike, this is also wrong. I have a '72 Super Beetle, no shimmy at all 40 mph on up. I had it until recently but, it wasn't the tires that caused it. It was a number of worn components - both ball joints, center tie rod, idler arm bushing, and damper bushing - and replacing each one ultimately eliminated it.

Cheap after-market rubber control arm bushings and idler arm bushings will also result in a shimmy, you'd be lucky to be shimmy-free for a month after installing them. Case in point: 4 weeks ago, I decided to install original style (I like as close to stock as is reasonable and safe) rubber inner control arm bushings which I bought from CIP1. So I removed the red urethane ones I installed a year ago, installed the new ones, had the alignment checked, and went on my merry way. 2 weeks later, the shimmy was back. I thought the damper bushing was to blame so i replaced it again. Nope. Finally broke down and accepted what Jon from TopLine told me - the after-market OE style rubber bushings stink. I re-installed the urethane ones and voilá! NO SHIMMY AT ALL, at ANY speed!

IF your original components are good and the tires are the problem, by all means fix the problem. [EDIT] But worn out components do cause the shimmies!!

Mon Apr 27, 2015 10:12 pm

That's good to hear, vamram, as I've already torn out all the track control arm bushing and installed new. Also got the ball joints pressed in- turns out I'm a dumbass and have never used a ball joint press before. I figured it out, but not before tearing one of the boots. New one should be in tomorrow and I'll finally finish this horrible job.

Tue Apr 28, 2015 5:38 am

My biggest problem with restoring a Beetle is that most shops don't tell you what they are selling. In many cases, they don't know who makes the parts in their inventory. When a website says only that they have part A that fits car B of year C, then I refuse to buy it. A company that is proud of their product will put their name on it, and a good retailer will be transparent about it.

Here is my list of front end components for a 1973 Super Beetle:

Steering column upper bearing, Ventura, 111953559A
Source given by Airhead's paper catalog. JP Group distributes a German one with no source given.
http://www.airheadparts.com/vintage-vw-parts/steering-column/bearing-steering-column-111953559-a

Steering column base grommet, Ventura, 113415607B
Source given by Airhead's paper catalog.
http://www.airheadparts.com/vintage-vw-parts/bug-b...13415607-b

Universal joint shaft for the steering column, 113415951B
I found a JP Group part number, but no retailers name the source for this part. Buyer beware.
http://www.autohausaz.com/pn/113415951B

Steering shaft boots, pair, VEWIB, 113415979B
Made from the original molds. JP Group is another source.
http://www.wolfsburgwest.com/cart/DetailsList.cfm?ID=113415979B

Steering gear box, WAT, 113415061E
These Spanish reproductions cost around $500 in the U.S.
http://www.paruzzi.com/webstore/?zoektrefwoord=1365&group=4&subgroup=15&
http://www.mecatechnic.com/boitier-et-accessoires-...32-BOI.htm

Idler arm bushing, bronze, Topline, 411417325
http://toplineparts.com/usa/high-performance-brass-idler-arm-bushings-71-to-mid-73.html

Center tie rod, NOS Lemforder, 113415303
I bought the last one from Bugcity. Ocap makes an Italian reproduction. Other shops may have a lower price, but CIP1 refers to a recent retooling by the manufacturer, so make sure that you get the newer one.
http://www2.cip1.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=C24%2D133%2D415%2D303

Tie rods, Lemforder, 133415801
Bought from Amazon.com

Steering damper, Sachs/Boge, 113425021J
http://www.secarpart.com/steering-damper-super-beetle-113425021j-sachs-p-1310.html

Steering damper bushings, VW Classic Parts, 113425117
Bought from www.paruzzi.com

Camber bolt kit, Topline, 113407159B
http://toplineparts.com/usa/camber-adjusting-bolt-all-super-beetle.html

Control arm bushings, NOS PEI, 133407183
Bought from Bugcity. JP Group makes a reproduction. RPM makes the cheap ones.
http://www.paruzzi.com/webstore/?zoektrefwoord=1335&

Sway bar bushings, JP Group, 113411313A & 113411315
Hoffmann Speedster in Germany makes another reproduction of the outer ones, but they won't ship to the U.S. BBT in Belgium makes a reproduction of the inner ones.
http://www.paruzzi.com/webstore/?zoektrefwoord=1337&
http://www.paruzzi.com/webstore/?zoektrefwoord=4336&

Sway bar hardware kit, Topline
http://toplineparts.com/usa/sway-bar-hardware-installation-kit-with-bushings-71-73.html

Ball joints, Moog, 113407361E
Bought from Amazon.com

Ball joint lock plates, set of 6, Hoffmann Speedster, 113412153
Source provided by Eric at Bughaus.
http://www.bughaus.com/ball_joint_lock_plates_-_113412153.htm

Strut spring gaskets, pair, VEWIB, 113411211
JP Group is another source.
http://www2.cip1.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=VWC%2D113%2D411%2D211%2DPR

Strut inserts, Sachs/Boge, 113412031D
http://www.autohausaz.com/pn/972002

Strut covers, pair, VW, 113412305
Made from the original molds. JP Group is another source.
http://www.airheadparts.com/vintage-vw-parts/front...3412305-gr

Strut rubber stops, NOS PEI, 113412303A
I bought mine from Bugcity. Reproductions come from JP Group and RPM.
http://www.paruzzi.com/webstore/?zoektrefwoord=3314&group=4&subgroup=13&

My favorite shops for quality and transparency are Bughaus and Paruzzi. West Coast Metric and Wolfsburg West will tell you which parts they make themselves, but their websites name the source for very little else. Airhead/Ventura is the same, but you have to use their paper catalog to find out what they make.

Tue Apr 28, 2015 6:05 am

green1303 wrote:
Here is my list of front end components for a 1973 Super Beetle:...

http://www.paruzzi.com/webstore/?zoektrefwoord=4336&

Green - that is a fantastic list! Should be posted as the definitive Super Beetle front end components repair list!

How did you get the outter control arm rubber bushings pressed in w/out destroying the rubber in the process? The damper bushing is shaped the same way, and I've yet to be able to press one in w/out damaging the rubber, no matter how much grease or silicone spray I used.

Tue Apr 28, 2015 7:03 am

Most guys on the Samba would take it as a dare, but the correct procedure is to take the control arms and bushings to a shop with a press. The only way that I could imagine replacing them at home would be to find a pipe of the right diameter and beat them out. I wouldn't hit the interior sleeve, however, as it could damage the rubber or the rubber/metal bond. Then you would clean and silicone the hole in the track control arm before you install the new one.

Tue Apr 28, 2015 8:14 am

green1303 wrote: Most guys on the Samba would take it as a dare, but the correct procedure is to take the control arms and bushings to a shop with a press. The only way that I could imagine replacing them at home would be to find a pipe of the right diameter and beat them out. I wouldn't hit the interior sleeve, however, as it could damage the rubber or the rubber/metal bond. Then you would clean and silicone the hole in the track control arm before you install the new one.

Yeah, there's a machine shop next door in Falls Church which I've taken them to. But I was wondering about the bushing for the steering damper. Do you remove the pitman arm and take it to a shop as well to have the bushing pressed in? I've tried some of the methods mentioned in different threads here - grease the hell out of the bushing and use a long bolt w/hard flat washers at either end, ball joint puller to push it in - all have resulted in damaging or ruining to the new bushing.

Tue Apr 28, 2015 8:36 am

Quote: The only way that I could imagine replacing them at home...

You cut the old one out and use it to install the new one.

Tue Apr 28, 2015 8:39 am

theKbStockpiler wrote: Quote: The only way that I could imagine replacing them at home...

You cut the old one out and use it to install the new one.

Hmmm....so use the old one to push against the new one? How does that prevent the new rubber from getting damaged? And what are you pushing w/? Bolt & washer? Ball joint puller?

Tue Apr 28, 2015 10:17 am

Only the sleeve is used. :wink: If the part will fit in a balljoint press, it will work.

Sat May 02, 2015 6:41 am

It sounds like thekbstockpiler is using the outer sleeve like I was thinking about using a pipe, as a way to push the bushing without damaging the rubber.

In the Bentley book, here is the procedure for replacing the two bushings in the track control arm: 1) press out the old ones, 2) clean the holes in the arm, 3) lubricate the sway bar bushing with silicone, and 4) press them in until they are flush with the top of the arm. The diagram shows the press working against the sleeve of the sway bar bushing and the outer sleeve of the control arm bushing. Bentley says that the rubber lugs on the end of the sway bar bushing must be horizontal with respect to the inner end of the control arm, and the recess in the control arm bushing must be oriented toward the front wheel.