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Wed Mar 25, 2015 8:03 am

Do total seal rings really work? are they worth the investment? will they work on used P&C? just curious if i should do it or not. it would be on 1835(92MM). thanks

Wed Mar 25, 2015 8:37 am

Yes and No, some say they are great while others say it's just marketing BS.

For motors that don't demand much I would stick with the standard Mahl or Wiseco rings.

My recommendation is yes use them if you're running CR over 10 and willing to spend extra. I use them and run 10.5 CR on the street and noticed superb leakdown test.

Wed Mar 25, 2015 8:38 am

Ive used over a hundrad sets in everything from atv's to blown drag big block,blown offshore marine pussy boats.yes they work yes there worth it. I had a few custom sets made for my old street car(v8). my new pistons have a .030 ring pkg, so it will be the first engine in about 30 years that I havent used them in. I did wander astray and tried somebody elses zero gap rings 1 time......they were in the 3 engines for about 2 weeks then I changed them out for total seal rings.that was an expensive stupid endever. low cr or high cr, and everyday driven engines.I like them in daily driven engines that dont get rebuilt like race engines do. they last the leek down stays @ 2% or less in most cases for many years. a std ring will be @ 5% or more in just a few months most of the time.

Wed Mar 25, 2015 8:40 am

Yes they are worth it on high compression and high RPM race engines. They are overkill and not needed on a street engine. They would be a total waste on used P/C's unless you have the cylinders honed.

Wed Mar 25, 2015 8:45 am

not over kill on any engine, hone required?? why??(this depends on the cylinder & builder) how many people dont hone the cylinders when rebuilding???? hell new cylinders need to be honed or tooth knocked off.

Wed Mar 25, 2015 9:42 am

I've had them on every forced induction motor I've ever built or had built. Not limited to aircooled flat 4s.

Wed Mar 25, 2015 11:53 am

I used o use the more for peace of mind than anything else. Have had some which took forever to seat properly, probably something I did wrong. They can make turning an engine over by hand a b&%#h.

I think they are more interesting on a LOW rpm, high compression engine, where gasses would have [/i]more time to escape...

Wed Mar 25, 2015 4:35 pm

Total seal makes all types of piston rings.
I do not recommend the gap less second rings.

Gapless top rings are good, especially if your pistons have wide ring lands.
I also like the CR series ductile iron sets, but not for use in dusty conditions. best to use a chrome top ring for for off-road.

Thu Mar 26, 2015 4:17 am

I thought using a gapless top ring caused problems with the second ring sealing as insufficient gas gets past the top ring to push against it? I don't really remember - I did try total seal rings once and while they definitely reduce blow-by, I suspect they cause other problems. I think it was the top ring, and it was the second ring that never seemed to seat properly.

If you have a blow-by problem you need to deal with they do work for that. Personally I don't think I'll try them again - when you get good at gapping rings and break-in procedures blow-by isn't really a problem.

Thu Mar 26, 2015 8:22 am

Berg only does that modification on the second groove. I had it done on my turbo engine.

Thu Mar 26, 2015 8:40 am

Ive only used them in the 2nd groove also. but....the trend in high rpm racing is a looser 2nd ring, as the second ring is mainly a oil scraper(some engines it is the only oil scraper) many things have come and gone and new ideas&products are out weekly.like I said Ive used a over a hundred sets and will continue to do so on the engines that I can do so with.
heck look at the accumulator groove whooda thiunk it woulda worked out.and do what it does to farther ring seal. I will probably add them to my pistons that dont have them.
now to get the guys drilling the top of the pistons to stop and do it right and not drill through the top of the piston's to gasport them!!!! there is a better way!!!

Thu Mar 26, 2015 9:55 am

Yes they work.

However, the problem is that many think that by using them, they don't have to do all the normal piston/cylinder/ring prep that they should be doing. If people actually DID that, they would already have improved performance and ring seal.

I can't tell you how many guys take a wire wheel to the top of the piston, or use an old ring to scrape the carbon out of the ring grooves on the pistons, or if they are buying new P&Cs take them out of the plastic and stick them on the engine without cleaning them.

Most folks that clean new P&Cs and pay attention are SHOCKED at how much metal and grit comes out of them. The mfg hones them with stone hones, and they are oiled (so they don't rust) and put in the box. The stone grit and removed metal are still in the cylinder walls, covered with oil.

If you clean them you have to do it with scalding hot water and some comet and a scotch brite pad(s). Wipe it down, spray with WD40, and wipe. If the cloth is not completely clean, re-clean until it is.

Failure to properly clean them cuts 2/3 of the P&C life out of them, as a guess on my part. "oh I shoulda used Total Seal rings!". Or not.

Thu Mar 26, 2015 1:47 pm

If Berg recommended the second groove then my memory was actually correct and that was what I used. I also followed his "Comet" method of cleaning them, but felt the second ring never quite set itself correctly. It was a long time ago and I sold the engine with the TS rings still in it - maybe it got better.

Thu Mar 26, 2015 3:25 pm

I do all the regular prep, IIRC even ad Berg re-hone the cylinder finer. They still took e very long time to seat. I may have chosen the wrong oil, though, don't remember, I usually do break-in with Premium straight non-detergent dino 10 or 20W. Having said that, I'm still running them, 22 yrs later.

Thu Mar 26, 2015 3:27 pm

Scrap that. I changed them out two years ago, when I re-honed the cylinders to change stroke. Still, 20 yrs ain't bad.

Thu Mar 26, 2015 3:50 pm

What about total seals getting more oil into the combustion chamber? Is that a myth? I've been told that some blowby is necessary to keep oil out of the combustion chambers and that total seal rings don't allow enough blowby unless used at full thottle all the time or on a diesel engine or if the crankcase is on a vacuum pump especially on a forced induction engine. Would these be a problem for street use on a gasoline engine?

Thu Mar 26, 2015 4:22 pm

In The 80's they only did the second groove for most things, a cast ring and a steel spacer.
The total seal company has patent on their gapless ring design, that was one one of the motivating factors as to why they PUSH them.
In the 90's they started using the gapless ring in the top for "racing applications"... and I think learned more about ring applications and materials, and in the new millennia the gapless top rings were doing just fine in street engines.

So....welcome to the present.

is it a good idea?? For some things yes, others no

Thu Mar 26, 2015 10:02 pm

no junito you dont want blow by to keep the oil out of the chamber. and they push them because they work.like everything else if you dont do it right they wont give the service they should, neither will the std type rings.

Fri Mar 27, 2015 12:33 am

Juanito84 wrote: What about total seals getting more oil into the combustion chamber? Is that a myth? I've been told that some blowby is necessary to keep oil out of the combustion chambers and that total seal rings don't allow enough blowby unless used at full thottle all the time or on a diesel engine or if the crankcase is on a vacuum pump especially on a forced induction engine. Would these be a problem for street use on a gasoline engine?

Never heard that myth before. Some say the second ring's main function is to prevent too much oil getting into the combustion area, some that it is the main sealing ring hence the need for a gap in the top ring.

Having said that, I did feel the engine with the TS second rings used more oil, though at the time I assumed they hadn't broken in properly. As I mentioned before, I sold the engine without tearing it down, so I'm just theorising.

My old VW mechanic while he was still alive didn't like them as he believed that without enough blowby more dirt would get into the crankcase... With nearly 50 years of experience with dubs I usually listened to him.

Fri Mar 27, 2015 10:58 am

if they pass oil something is rong.and not the tts fault.if dirt gets in it's not because of not enough blowby. the rings have to have a gap to seal,if they do not have enough gap they will but ends and break. a solid ring with no gap wont work,it is not a"0"ring,but it is a seal. If a squirrel falls out of a tree does it land on it's nuts?